Are we sleep-walking out of Europe ?

Me too Don, I'm missing any informed debate with any real detail.

The Stay In campaigners need to get their act together and start providing some facts or else your thread title may well become a reality as the tabloids and scare mongerers seem to have the loudest voice at the moment. Not much balance on show from where I am sitting.

Getting out will be the best thing that the UK has done since 1945. 

The sooner the vote the better.

ATB from George

George Fredrik Fiske posted:

"Getting out will be the best thing that the UK has done since 1945". 

Apologies for being so abrupt, but - Rubbish!

A dangerous thing, introducing politics to a forum like this. 

Hmack posted:

George Fredrik Fiske posted:

"Getting out will be the best thing that the UK has done since 1945". 

Apologies for being so abrupt, but - Rubbish!

A dangerous thing, introducing politics to a forum like this. 

Despite George's simple statement of his overall point of view, I anticipate a more informed exposition of points of view on this forum than in the Commons................!! and possibly some  helpful direction indicators as to where we might manage to inform ourselves.

Do we rearly want to stay in a club run by un-elected mandarins full of self interest. It also seems to work under the rule that it all depends on "what Angela says". Also I do not think it can ever work fully satisfactory with countries with such     varying economies. After all it is this that is causing the migrant problem.

philip

Dear Don,

Your opening post is loaded with the idea that we might be sleep walking out of Europe, and to my mind this suggests that you think staying in - I may have mistaken your meaning - would be a bad thing.

You then say that you have no idea where you should look for informed thought on the subject.

I am guessing that your remember the referendum that took us into the EEC. And I guess that you have probably been wide awake to the implications of this membership ever since. I am surprised that you need to have a quick debate now not to be certain of your own mind.

Certainly I do not think anything our Prime Minister may extract as a reform of our relationship with the EU is going to be enough to put right was put wrong forty years ago. Indeed I discount his sayings so far as having any significance on the issue with his tub-thumping rhetoric about cutting benefits to migrants. The issue is far more radical than that.

ATB from George

Don Atkinson posted:

"Despite George's simple statement of his overall point of view, I anticipate a more informed exposition of points of view on this forum than in the Commons................!! "

Quite right, and I accept the criticism.

Well, I will begin by stating that my belief is that from an economic perspective we are better off remaining inside the EU (but retaining the UK currency) than exiting Europe. However, I accept this is a difficult argument (on both sides), but from a simple position of trust, belief and credibility, I would far rather side with the politicians and economists on my side rather than the rag-bag (I am sorry, but politics is an emotive subject) of questionable individuals on the other side.

However, my biggest concern about the possibility of an 'exit' vote, is that this will further divide the North and South of the country. I feel pretty confident that in the event of an 'Exit' vote and any real move towards an exit, there will shortly afterwards be a referendum in Scotland in which the overwhelming majority of people will vote to stay in Europe and leave the UK.

This is something I do not want to happen, and something that I believe will not happen in the foreseeable future should the vote be to remain in the EU. 

Part of the problem is that the rest of Europe are committed to closer and closer ties and the UK is not.  We can't have our cake and eat it despite our deluded prime ministers attempts, in my view, we are either in or out.  Which that should be is very much open to debate

Dear Don,

I believe that if the UK left the EU, then it would be quite right for Scotland to make a decision on remaining in the United Kingdom in quite changed circumstances. If Scotland would prefer its own sovereignty to sharing it with the other UK countries and then wish to rejoin the EU that then would be the business of the Scottish voting population. I would be unconcerned either way. I am not Scottish.

I am a firm believer in democracy, where each person who votes has an equal voice. It is the case that sometime people vote in majority against what you would support, but I support the notion even when the result is contrary to my own view.

I am all for democracy. I am also all in favour of cutting down the number of levels of Government we have. Two seems ideal to me. Westminster and County Council.

This may turn into a very interesting discussion! ATB from George

I think Don captures this well by using the term 'sleep walking'.

In my view we would be bonkers to leave the EU.  Unfortunately the debate seems to be dominated by the very narrow topics of migration and benefit payments, and the Daily Mail and other papers doing their best to stir up people's little-Englander prejudices.  The only reason the referendum was committed to was Cameron's sop to the rabid anti-Europe elements in his party. A poor call on his part since, frankly, no matter what 'concessions' the PM negotiates with his counterparts in other EU members states, those elements would never be satisfied. They want us out of the EU, period. 

Only a moron would vote to leave Europe and watch the economy collapse. There should be no referendum, it should be left to Parliament. But Cameron is terrified of his right wing, so we end up in a position where the uninformed, racist or both, could potentially do untold damage to the UK and our friends across the Channel. 

While this ridiculous charade unfolds, investment decisions will be delayed, the economy will falter and airtime will be given to those who want to turn back the clock fifty years. England for the English!! Or, hopefully, not.

I agree with all of that, HH. Cameron's legacy could well be pulling us out of the EU with the consequence of throwing the economy back into a serious and long-term recession, and causing the break-up of the Union. I believe he wants none of these things but I fear he may not now be able to control events. 

George posted:

"I am a firm believer in democracy, where each person who votes has an equal voice. It is the case that sometime people vote in majority against what you would support, but I support the notion even when the result is contrary to my own view".

I too believe in democracy. However, we live with (or endure) in this country a confrontational political system in which a party (with some very extreme views in the eyes of many) can claim a carte-blanche mandate for all of its policies with approximately 36% of the votes cast in a general election (never mind the viewpoint of those who haven't voted).

This is divisive, and has led (irrespective of whether left or right is in power) to a succession of governments over the years which have not been truly supported by the majority of people in this country. This has further been exacerbated by the North/South divide in respect of wealth and well-being.

For those who don't care whether or not Scotland chooses to leave the UK, consider whether you will be happy to live with a 'right-wing' (possibly leaning more and more to the right - who knows?) government in perpetuity. Not much hope for proportional representation anytime soon.

No doubt, many will be very happy with this prospect. However, many others will not. The UK (excluding Scotland) will become more and more divided.

Didn't realise I felt quite so passionate about this. I think I'll dismantle my soap-box before I burst a blood vessel.   

Hungryhalibut posted:

Only a moron would vote to leave Europe and watch the economy collapse. There should be no referendum, it should be left to Parliament. But Cameron is terrified of his right wing 

Dear HMack,

Your points are certainly well observed with respect to our first past the post elections, but it is the system that has evolved in the UK, and the results mean that few governments tends to survive more than one or two re-elections. This itself is a good thing as it leads to a clear out of politicians every few years and prevents the kind of entrenched position that can ever so easily lead to being out completely out of touch with the electorate.

My view is simply that until someone can invent a PR system that still implies that an MP has a direct appeal to his or her voters, then PR tends to put power into the party machines who post candidate lists and select from it the chosen MPs by placing nearer the top. I am in favour of ideal democracy I would hate to loose the right to help choose the individual MP for my individual constituency. 

However none this concerns the EU as such, which after all has a massive unelected [appointed] bureaucracy that is in the position to over-rule what used to be the sovereign United Kingdom Parliament. I think the Prime Minister will get his token shifts in the relationship with Europe, and because this is always done with quid-pro-quo exchanges and compromises, we shall gain little and potentially loose more even with this current shame of a renegotiation. 

ATB from George

The same idiots that will vote in a referendum are surely the same ones who vote in the general election.  I think it is unfair to label those who want to leave the EU as uninformed and racist.  They could be just as informed and just as unprejudiced as those who want to stay in - they just don't agree with your view.  It's a poor start to the debate if the stance is that those who don't agree are uninformed and racist and those who do are of course well informed and reasonable human beings.  To my mind those entrenched and judgemental views make a referendum where all people can make their decision a no brainer. If we trust the government who were placed in power by the electorate in an act of democracy I really can't see how we can not trust democracy to arrive at the right decision on this.

Dear Daylay,

Totally agree.

Calling people you disagree morons or racists or other emotive things is hardly a propitious start to what is after all a rather important subject of discussion. People who use [and have already used] such emotive put downs should consider very carefully their starting point. It is fine to disagree, but very rude to insult people willy-nilly.

ATB from George

dayjay posted:

If we trust the government who were placed in power by the electorate in an act of democracy I really can't see how we can not trust democracy to arrive at the right decision on this.

dayjay - I know it can sound high-handed but in my view some things are best left to the elected government of the day.  For an extreme example, a decision to go to war.  To take another (and at the risk of stirring up a different and emotive debate), the decision on whether the State should have capital punishment.  If a referendum were held on re-introducing the death penalty, and re-introduction was supported by the 'Red Top' papers, how do you think that would turn out?

In my view this referendum on EU membership is ill-thought through and questions of membership to any supra-national government body should be decided by Parliament.    

I don't necessarily disagree with that, but the decision has been made and there will be a referendum.  In my view the best chance of a good end result from it will be to have the debate focus on the facts; not insults and scare mongering, just the demonstrable facts.  Trust me, if we don't drift into insults and rhetoric and give people the facts there are a lot more sensible, decent people in this country than otherwise, give them a chance to prove it.

The referendum was part of the last General Election. It seems that we elected a government that said that they would hold a referendum on the issue. Of course we cannot have referendums on every issue, but when one is promised by one or more political parties at a General Election, then clearly we should have one. It is part of the system that we have. It certainly has precedents. Not least the first referendum on the EEC forty odd years ago. Once a generation seems fair enough to me.

ATB from George

I agree with those sentiments dayjay but I am less optimistic about a balanced and informed debate supporting the decision that each of us will make at the ballot box.  I think we has a foretaste of this with the Scottish Independence referendum, albeit on a much smaller scale.  It was only at the last knockings that the heavyweight politicians woke-up and started making the arguments in favour of retaining the Union and enough of the Scottish electorate saw the down-sides of leaving.  

Mike  

Let us hope then that they have learned their lessons Mike because this will be an important decision 

George Fredrik Fiske posted:

The referendum was part of the last General Election. It seems that we elected a government that said that they would hold a referendum on the issue. Of course we cannot have referendums on every issue, but when one is promised by one or more political parties at a General Election, then clearly we should have one. It is part of the system that we have. It certainly has precedents. Not least the first referendum on the EEC forty odd years ago. Once a generation seems fair enough to me.

ATB from George

Well, I certainly didn't vote for a bunch of old Etonian elitists, who are happy to destroy the state to an extent that even Thatcher baulked at. Britain is not a world power, and we get the international investment solely because we are a bridgehead to the wider Europe. To turn our backs on Europe is to make our faltering economy even worse. 

I cannot abide Cameron, but on his support for continuing membership of the EU he has my support. 

So much of the 'leave Europe' agenda is based on 'foreigners' taking our jobs, taking our houses and sponging on our benefits. It's small minded, island mentality, little Britain racism, and it's disgusting. 

dayjay posted:

Let us hope then that they have learned their lessons Mike because this will be an important decision 

Mightily important, especially for our children and their children. I will be casting my vote for their futures rather than mine.  But here's the irony: I have three adult children, all working, and none have the slightest interest in this important issue and probably won't vote.   Hence my fear that their futures will be decided by those who will vote in the referendum, many of which are motivated by some narrow-minded prejudices.

Selfishness, fears and prejudice drive the debates in these matters. My own view is that overall good is seldom achieved by partitioning people into smaller tribes, tightening borders and erecting economic barriers.