Are we sleep-walking out of Europe ?

As I sit here I find it almost unbelievable that the small-minded, paranoid racists might actually achieve this. I thought the UK was better than this.

Don Atkinson posted:

S

I do not consider it necessary to create a "Single Nation Called Europe" the primary purpose of which is to stop  wars between European people.  

Hi Don

What's the source for the 'single nation called Europe' quote?
Thanks

Clive

Dear Winki,

The UK leaving Europe has absolutely nothing to do with racism for your average British Joe. As UK inhabitants, we may well have a real admiration and affection for Danes, French, Greeks, ... Poles, Hungarians, ... [you get the idea] ... without thinking that for one moment our government in the UK should be tied at the hip to these nations and cultures we so like.

One of the funny things about the North American New World is that the peoples of Canada and the USA have a very simple idea of adoring foreign cultures without wanting to be run by them. Or perhaps not ...

ATB from George

winkyincanada posted:

As I sit here I find it almost unbelievable that the small-minded, paranoid racists might actually achieve this. I thought the UK was better than this.

I don't think they will, at least not on their own. However there appears to be a significant number of large-minded, rational, non-racists who consider the EU, in it's present form, to be undemocratic, and economically inefficient and have reached the conclusion that it cannot be reformed from within. Like myself they will probably have, with some measure of sadness for what we believe the EEC could have been, decide to vote out. 

Willy.

winkyincanada posted:

As I sit here I find it almost unbelievable that the small-minded, paranoid racists might actually achieve this. I thought the UK was better than this.

I think there is a racist element in some of the outers, but what I have notice particularly recently is a breathtaking arrogance in attitudes towards our EU partners. This was shown in the claim that they need us more than we need them, but also in our ability to identify such matters as the democratic deficit, economic problems and so forth which the continental population is of course largely unaware of.

I am firmly in the 'UK should stay in the EU' camp, but I certainly would not attribute the term 'racist' to the majority of people in the 'Exit' camp.

Whilst the real racists (thankfully a small minority) in this country may well be in favour of an exit from the EU, I agree with George's last post that for the vast majority of people who support an exit, it is nothing to do with racism. There Is though, an arrogance is some quarters in respect of Britain's position and value in the EU, and as CDB has stated in the belief of some that the EU needs Britain more than Britain needs the EU.

The recent refugee crisis has strained relationships within Europe, and has probably persuaded some to switch to the 'Exit' camp. However, this is a massive issue that cannot possibly be resolved by individual countries. I strongly believe that Britain should remain in the EU and contribute towards a resolution, and will be voting accordingly.      

George Fredrik Fiske posted:

The UK leaving Europe has absolutely nothing to do with racism for your average British Joe. As UK inhabitants, we may well have a real admiration and affection for Danes, French, Greeks, ... Poles, Hungarians, ... [you get the idea] ... without thinking that for one moment our government in the UK should be tied at the hip to these nations and cultures we so like.

Actually I think you have your head in the sand if you don't recognise that at least some of the current hysteria about Europe is anything more than racism (IMO). 

Most people will vote based not on facts but on what they see around them and feel is the truth.  They see Poles in jobs while they are on the dole.  They see Hungarians in social housing and on welfare while they work hard. They see Romanians getting treatment at their GP while they have been waiting 6 weeks for an appointment.

Thats the truth of being part of the EU for many people ... But these aren't facts.  They are responses to the baser instincts and racism.  Much (not all) of the anti EU feeling has risen a result of the financial crisis and blaming of those ****y foreigners for the fact that there is not enough money for the health service, or for the filling of the prisons.

George Fredrik Fiske posted:

Dear Winki,

The UK leaving Europe has absolutely nothing to do with racism for your average British Joe. As UK inhabitants, we may well have a real admiration and affection for Danes, French, Greeks, ... Poles, Hungarians, ... [you get the idea] ... without thinking that for one moment our government in the UK should be tied at the hip to these nations and cultures we so like.

One of the funny things about the North American New World is that the peoples of Canada and the USA have a very simple idea of adoring foreign cultures without wanting to be run by them. Or perhaps not ...

ATB from George

I am with you here, George.

I must admit I that I think that anyone who thinks that this is about racism is being extremely short-sighted. I do have friends from all over from  Europe and beyond. I'm voting to stay in but I also have friends voting to come out and not a single one ever mentioned race or creed during our discussions. 

Thats was my two-pence. Please carry on...

Oh, I think racism is a significant part of the "Out" movement. Certainly in this rural neck of the woods, casual racism is part of the makeup, which is surprising because the agricultural industry hereabouts would be sunk without european labour.

I've always considered myself european, and I'm rather dismayed that the main impetus to leave behind the E.U. revolves round a suspicion of "foreigners". 

Bruce Woodhouse posted:

The EU referendum campaign is now inextricably woven with the Tory leadership contest.

Boris has weighed it up and thinks Brexit will win-and this is his bid for leadership. It is a gamble for him, and I hope he loses both on his own account and for the sake of our ongoing EU membership. The flipside is that Osborne will be the new leader/PM.

Corbyn has a role to play here too-can he bite back the bile and make his party campaign for Europe and stand with Cameron?  

Bruce

 

I've never had the pleasure but my boss at the time had regular dealings with Boris in the run-up to 2012.  He (my boss) couldn't talk more highly of him - witty, intelligent, engaged and very clever.

But there is a significant difference between being mayor and PM - the former can be somewhat quirky - remember Rudi - the latter as has been said has to be the more serious politician.  In the event I don't think the next Conservative leader has fully emerged.

On the EU I believe there are many reasons for remaining - albeit it's far from perfect as an institution - but I see the bigger picture.  Until the last 70 years we've had conflict on and off with our closest neighbours - to anyone who thinks we are better off out of the EU go figure.

Incidentally Jeremy Corbyn is in a difficult position all round - he has a long standing antipathy to the EU and even as recent as last Autumn his rhetoric was anti, and more he still sees politics as a class war and therefore being in agreement with David Cameron, on anything, will never be easy for him.

From some comments above:

I never thought that British people are racists. I have lived in the UK from 1979 to 1995, i.e. from the age of 16 and left at 38. in the UK I have pursued my growing up to become the person that I believe I am now:  respectful, grateful, educated, passionate, and most of all honest. For this I will always be grateful to my Parents, the UK and its people. I believe this is the kind of sentiment that our fathers wanted for us; I am as much Italian as I am British.

Having said this, I now feel that the UK subtly wants to stray away from this fundamental role i.e. continue and work towards binding people’s ideas and respect for each other, by introducing subtle forms of discrimination which they call exceptions and exclusions from European legislations that Cameron and fellow politicians are asking for.

 They are de facto keeping the UK from working at a general solution for all of us. Things in Europe are very difficult now, but it is not by leaving or being negative that you solve the problems. You work within!

 The eventual day you do go it will be a very SAD day for all of us only because we will not have learned the lessons from history.

 This will end my comments!

I recall a radio programme where the presenter was making the case that what had done more to prevent war in Europe (and indeed many other locations) than the EU was....the standardised shipping container. We are all so intricately bound in trade that we couldn't afford to go to war with each other. The idea that the EU is all that's preventing WW3 breaking out is IMHO totally outdated. These are different times. We are different people. Even my fellow countrymen have, by and large, stopped murdering each other.

Willy.

winkyincanada posted:

As I sit here I find it almost unbelievable that the small-minded, paranoid racists might actually achieve this. I thought the UK was better than this.

Hi Winky, you have completely lost me. Please elaborate.

Cdb posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

S

I do not consider it necessary to create a "Single Nation Called Europe" the primary purpose of which is to stop  wars between European people.  

Hi Don

What's the source for the 'single nation called Europe' quote?
Thanks

Clive

Clive. It was a reference to Salvo’s post.

Cheers

Don

Cdb posted:

winkyincanada posted:

As I sit here I find it almost unbelievable that the small-minded, paranoid racists might actually achieve this. I thought the UK was better than this.

I think there is a racist element in some of the outers, but what I have notice particularly recently is a breathtaking arrogance in attitudes towards our EU partners. This was shown in the claim that they need us more than we need them, but also in our ability to identify such matters as the democratic deficit, economic problems and so forth which the continental population is of course largely unaware of.

I do not see MANY people arguing along the lines “the EU needs Britain more than Britain needs the EU” Some ? yes ! for sure. But that applies to any aspect of the discussion as to whether we stay or leave. Very dangerous and disingenuous to tar ALL of the UK with EVERY point of view ALL the time !

For the benefit of Frenchnaim, my point was that Britain COULD make its own way in the world. The same can’t be said for ALL the countries in the EU. At that point in this thread both you and one other had been pretty aggressive that if the UK wasn’t prepared to “toe-the-line” so to speak, then we should "get out of Europe quickly, since it seems you are so full of yourself and think that your are the best in the world!. And please shut the door!" I decided I could make my point more clearly hence the re-draft.

Eloise posted:

 

Most people will vote based not on facts but on what they see around them and feel is the truth.

Eloise, that was my driving thought when I started this thread. Emotion, sentiment, but not facts. And facts about the benefits and risks to both the UK and the EU.

Cheers

Don

A war in Europe has not occurred since 1945 because we have MAD - Mutually Assured Destruction thanks to the work of the engineers and scientists in Los Alamos and other locations in the US, plus the betrayal of the information to the USSR. The occupying powers in Germany provided a stabilizing presence in Europe so that war did not break out until the late 80s and early 90s in Yugoslavia.

As for who needs who - the nations only need the ability to trade and have compatible systems, they do not need a political union.

Don Atkinson posted:

Cdb posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

S

I do not consider it necessary to create a "Single Nation Called Europe" the primary purpose of which is to stop  wars between European people.  

Hi Don

What's the source for the 'single nation called Europe' quote?
Thanks

Clive

Clive. It was a reference to Salvo’s post.

Cheers

Don

I thought it was, but that wasn't the term used either by him or in the Wikipedia article he quoted. I think accuracy is required in the debate if we are to come to a satisfactory conclusion. No-one as far as I know has ever officially suggested creating a single nation state called Europe. The fears aroused about sovereignty depend on this kind of misunderstanding.

Clive 

Salvo posted:

Having said this, I now feel that the UK subtly wants to stray away from this fundamental role i.e. continue and work towards binding people’s ideas and respect for each other, by introducing subtle forms of discrimination which they call exceptions and exclusions from European legislations that Cameron and fellow politicians are asking for.

I don't think you could be further from the truth.

The UK doesn't want to be part of the "Single Europe" that you are so determined to achieve. And neither do a few other countries and, I suspect, many citizens in all the EU countries. And the UK has secured the right to remain apart, in this respect. Others may follow if they can; and others might wish that they could follow our lead, if only they could ! Hence my remark in an earlier post that before long there might only be THREE countries in the EU - Britain, Denmark and Europe.

However, as I said earlier today, many people here see the UK as the primary driving voice in Europe for much needed reform - not exceptions !!. Times have moved on. Priorities have changed and will continue to change. The EU in its current form is too cumbersome. It needs to be more flexible. Its members need more flexibility.

Cheer. Don

Don Atkinson posted:

Cdb posted:

winkyincanada posted:

As I sit here I find it almost unbelievable that the small-minded, paranoid racists might actually achieve this. I thought the UK was better than this.

I think there is a racist element in some of the outers, but what I have notice particularly recently is a breathtaking arrogance in attitudes towards our EU partners. This was shown in the claim that they need us more than we need them, but also in our ability to identify such matters as the democratic deficit, economic problems and so forth which the continental population is of course largely unaware of.

I do not see MANY people arguing along the lines “the EU needs Britain more than Britain needs the EU” Some ? yes ! for sure. But that applies to any aspect of the discussion as to whether we stay or leave. Very dangerous and disingenuous to tar ALL of the UK with EVERY point of view ALL the time !

 

Don

I gave that as an example of British (English?) arrogance; I did not maintain that everyone in the UK held that view.

Clive

Frenchnaim posted:

Er... you don't know what my persona is.

And cut the lesson, please - your comment was extremely unpleasant. And may I point out that there isn't a single question in the post above?

The whole thing is getting very silly - back to Naim, I hope.

You wrote.......          "......Read my posts, Don, READ them. Explain in what way you wouldn't want to be part of "my society"

Pretty aggressive lead-in..............to what looks like a question to me.

BTW, how are you getting on with Commission Regulation 1178 ?

Cdb posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

Cdb posted:

winkyincanada posted:

As I sit here I find it almost unbelievable that the small-minded, paranoid racists might actually achieve this. I thought the UK was better than this.

I think there is a racist element in some of the outers, but what I have notice particularly recently is a breathtaking arrogance in attitudes towards our EU partners. This was shown in the claim that they need us more than we need them, but also in our ability to identify such matters as the democratic deficit, economic problems and so forth which the continental population is of course largely unaware of.

I do not see MANY people arguing along the lines “the EU needs Britain more than Britain needs the EU” Some ? yes ! for sure. But that applies to any aspect of the discussion as to whether we stay or leave. Very dangerous and disingenuous to tar ALL of the UK with EVERY point of view ALL the time !

 

Don

I gave that as an example of British (English?) arrogance; I did not maintain that everyone in the UK held that view.

Clive

Clive, whilst I do acknowledge that point of view has been expressed, I consider that so few people in the UK think along those lines that it is completely misleading to offer it as "an example of British (English?) arrogance".

As I said in an earlier post, the press are having a field-day picking quotes from one or two people and presenting them as "facts" of how the entire nation thinks !

Don Atkinson posted:

winkyincanada posted:

As I sit here I find it almost unbelievable that the small-minded, paranoid racists might actually achieve this. I thought the UK was better than this.

Hi Winky, you have completely lost me. Please elaborate.

I mean that the socio-political support may largely stem from people who fear and/or dislike all the "foreigners" and the europization of the UK. The whole thing simply panders to populist tabloid attitudes. There is no rational economic argument for the erection of additional barriers to immigration, travel and trade. There might be a few selfish arguments that certain groups or individuals might benefit from putting up the wall, but that's where it ends.

We see the same thing here in Canada where people claim that the country is less "friendly" when what they really mean is that they are simply uncomfortable , if not hostile, in the presence of people "not like us".

As I said much earlier, the greater good is rarely, if ever served by erecting barriers.

winkyincanada posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

winkyincanada posted:

As I sit here I find it almost unbelievable that the small-minded, paranoid racists might actually achieve this. I thought the UK was better than this.

Hi Winky, you have completely lost me. Please elaborate.

I mean that the socio-political support may largely stem from people who fear and/or dislike all the "foreigners" and the europization of the UK. The whole thing simply panders to populist tabloid attitudes. There is no rational economic argument for the erection of additional barriers to immigration, travel and trade. There might be a few selfish arguments that certain groups or individuals might benefit from putting up the wall, but that's where it ends.

We see the same thing here in Canada where people claim that the country is less "friendly" when what they really mean is that they are simply uncomfortable , if not hostile, in the presence of people "not like us".

As I said much earlier, the greater good is rarely, if ever served by erecting barriers.

I understand exactly what you're saying Winky. In my new job I'm sharing an office with a guy from Luton who has moved up to Edinburgh to get away from the SE rat race. But he's still so pro English it's hard to believe. All foreigners are bad in his eyes, have nothing to offer, are only here to scrounge benefits, everything English is better than everything anywhere else and so on. My first experience of such close exposure to this sort of thing and it's four feet away from me five days a week.

In spite of it all he's quite a likeable lad in many ways but the novelty's wearing off fast.

OK, thread's back.  Tidied up a bit.  Please try to be respectful of others, particularly if their view may not align with your own.