Are we sleep-walking out of Europe ?

thebigfredc posted:

HMAK you do most of us 'outies' a disservice.

We weren't swayed by the financial numbers spewed by politicians at the time of the pole but by our longstanding objections to the EUs undeniable interference of our sovereignty, autonomy and territoriality.

Ray

They won't accept that Ray. They will go on about it until you change your mind.

thebigfredc posted:

HMAK you do most of us 'outies' a disservice.

We weren't swayed by the financial numbers spewed by politicians at the time of the pole but by our longstanding objections to the EUs undeniable interference of our sovereignty, autonomy and territoriality.

Ray

Not to mention, of course, the desire not to be part of a pan European Superstate, rather than be a member of a free trade organisation, which was the original concept  to which we subscribed.

It is always the way these days that big political debates get boiled down to stats and numbers so that winners and losers can be determined, targeted and persuaded to vote one way or the other.

I do realise that our collective decisions have consequences that make material differences to people's lives but for once I felt it was nice to get away from the accountants and actually vote on a matter of principle.

Innocent Bystander posted:

Clive B posted:

Timmo1341 posted:

Absolutely not. I am one of those not ashamed to admit having voted 'leave' who would now, unhesitatingly, vote to remain. I misjudged the ability of certain politicians to negotiate a satisfactory outcome, and now see we would have been better placed negotiating change from within. I am still implacably opposed to creeping federalism, but with this government of witless wa**ers we'll really suffer in the wilderness.

The approach being taken by the Tories is unforgivable. My greatest hope is that leaving without a deal will be so catastrophic it will result in another vote, which would undoubtedly witness a significant majority in favour of rejoining. 

I think we're in for an interesting couple of years!!

We should remember that David Cameron tried to negotiate from within in February last year. The EU didn't listen. Now there is talk at least of reform within the EU. Be sure though that if we were ever to seek to rejoin we'd pay more; we would never again enjoy the rebate negotiated by Margaret Thatcher. 

 

As for the Irish party propping up the tories, how come they can't see how bad it will be for Ireland, and force the issue by removing their support?

 

I presume by the “Irish party” you are referring to the Democratic Unionist Party. If so I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you did so out of naivety rather than any malice.

The DUP are a British political party. They are largest party in Northern Ireland which is part of the United Kingdom. That status is enshrined in Law, most recently in the Good Friday Agreement, and will remain so until a majority of its constituents vote otherwise. (Taking into consideration the polling that has been done on the mater only a fool or a fantasist would believe that status is likely to change in the foreseeable future.)

Over the past decades numerous members of the DUP have been maimed, or murdered by Irish Nationalist terrorists either because they were in the service of the British police or British army, or simply because of their political/religious affiliation. Many more members of the DUP have seen parents, spouses, siblings, children, friends and constituents maimed and murdered by Irish National terrorists. 

Hopefully you’ll now understand that referring to the DUP as the “Irish Party” is at best insensitive and will be considered by some to be grossly offensive, bordering on racism and arguably hate speech.

I have noted a trend in this topic to hurl insults with gay abandon. For example, Brexiteers are all “ignorant” and “selfish”. If that’s how you folks want to run this thread then fine, I can always  go elsewhere and read about cables.

It’s of more concern that there’s been possibly sexist comment, for example denigration of “women drivers” in here. Not so happy with that but I’ll leave it to the moderators to make the judgement call.

However this post, whether intentionally or not, has crossed a line. I would urge posters in future to think very carefully about what they say here, how it reflects upon Naim, and how it could lead to an uncomfortable conversation with your local constabulary.

Regards,

Willy.

Willy posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

Clive B posted:

Timmo1341 posted:

Absolutely not. I am one of those not ashamed to admit having voted 'leave' who would now, unhesitatingly, vote to remain. I misjudged the ability of certain politicians to negotiate a satisfactory outcome, and now see we would have been better placed negotiating change from within. I am still implacably opposed to creeping federalism, but with this government of witless wa**ers we'll really suffer in the wilderness.

The approach being taken by the Tories is unforgivable. My greatest hope is that leaving without a deal will be so catastrophic it will result in another vote, which would undoubtedly witness a significant majority in favour of rejoining. 

I think we're in for an interesting couple of years!!

We should remember that David Cameron tried to negotiate from within in February last year. The EU didn't listen. Now there is talk at least of reform within the EU. Be sure though that if we were ever to seek to rejoin we'd pay more; we would never again enjoy the rebate negotiated by Margaret Thatcher. 

 

As for the Irish party propping up the tories, how come they can't see how bad it will be for Ireland, and force the issue by removing their support?

 

I presume by the “Irish party” you are referring to the Democratic Unionist Party. If so I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you did so out of naivety rather than any malice.

The DUP are a British political party. They are largest party in Northern Ireland which is part of the United Kingdom. That status is enshrined in Law, most recently in the Good Friday Agreement, and will remain so until a majority of its constituents vote otherwise. (Taking into consideration the polling that has been done on the mater only a fool or a fantasist would believe that status is likely to change in the foreseeable future.)

Over the past decades numerous members of the DUP have been maimed, or murdered by Irish Nationalist terrorists either because they were in the service of the British police or British army, or simply because of their political/religious affiliation. Many more members of the DUP have seen parents, spouses, siblings, children, friends and constituents maimed and murdered by Irish National terrorists. 

Hopefully you’ll now understand that referring to the DUP as the “Irish Party” is at best insensitive and will be considered by some to be grossly offensive, bordering on racism and arguably hate speech.

 

I have noted a trend in this topic to hurl insults with gay abandon. For example, Brexiteers are all “ignorant” and “selfish”. If that’s how you folks want to run this thread then fine, I can always  go elsewhere and read about cables.

It’s of more concern that there’s been possibly sexist comment, for example denigration of “women drivers” in here. Not so happy with that but I’ll leave it to the moderators to make the judgement call.

However this post, whether intentionally or not, has crossed a line. I would urge posters in future to think very carefully about what they say here, how it reflects upon Naim, and how it could lead to an uncomfortable conversation with your local constabulary.

Regards,

Willy.

 

Willy, I honestly think a much shorter response, simply pointing out the inaccuracy, would have sufficed. To talk about racism and hate speech, which is so obviously not the intent of IB, is to yourself create the very atmosphere of which you complain. Ignorance and/or naivety mixed with over sensitivity - an incendiary mixture.

Timmo1341 posted:

Willy posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

Clive B posted:

Timmo1341 posted:

Absolutely not. I am one of those not ashamed to admit having voted 'leave' who would now, unhesitatingly, vote to remain. I misjudged the ability of certain politicians to negotiate a satisfactory outcome, and now see we would have been better placed negotiating change from within. I am still implacably opposed to creeping federalism, but with this government of witless wa**ers we'll really suffer in the wilderness.

The approach being taken by the Tories is unforgivable. My greatest hope is that leaving without a deal will be so catastrophic it will result in another vote, which would undoubtedly witness a significant majority in favour of rejoining. 

I think we're in for an interesting couple of years!!

We should remember that David Cameron tried to negotiate from within in February last year. The EU didn't listen. Now there is talk at least of reform within the EU. Be sure though that if we were ever to seek to rejoin we'd pay more; we would never again enjoy the rebate negotiated by Margaret Thatcher. 

 

As for the Irish party propping up the tories, how come they can't see how bad it will be for Ireland, and force the issue by removing their support?

 

I presume by the “Irish party” you are referring to the Democratic Unionist Party. If so I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you did so out of naivety rather than any malice.

The DUP are a British political party. They are largest party in Northern Ireland which is part of the United Kingdom. That status is enshrined in Law, most recently in the Good Friday Agreement, and will remain so until a majority of its constituents vote otherwise. (Taking into consideration the polling that has been done on the mater only a fool or a fantasist would believe that status is likely to change in the foreseeable future.)

Over the past decades numerous members of the DUP have been maimed, or murdered by Irish Nationalist terrorists either because they were in the service of the British police or British army, or simply because of their political/religious affiliation. Many more members of the DUP have seen parents, spouses, siblings, children, friends and constituents maimed and murdered by Irish National terrorists. 

Hopefully you’ll now understand that referring to the DUP as the “Irish Party” is at best insensitive and will be considered by some to be grossly offensive, bordering on racism and arguably hate speech.

 

I have noted a trend in this topic to hurl insults with gay abandon. For example, Brexiteers are all “ignorant” and “selfish”. If that’s how you folks want to run this thread then fine, I can always  go elsewhere and read about cables.

It’s of more concern that there’s been possibly sexist comment, for example denigration of “women drivers” in here. Not so happy with that but I’ll leave it to the moderators to make the judgement call.

However this post, whether intentionally or not, has crossed a line. I would urge posters in future to think very carefully about what they say here, how it reflects upon Naim, and how it could lead to an uncomfortable conversation with your local constabulary.

Regards,

Willy.

 

Willy, I honestly think a much shorter response, simply pointing out the inaccuracy, would have sufficed. To talk about racism and hate speech, which is so obviously not the intent of IB, is to yourself create the very atmosphere of which you complain. Ignorance and/or naivety mixed with over sensitivity - an incendiary mixture.

My concern was that simply pointing out the technical inaccuracy would not have conveyed the level of offence that some readers could take from this posting. I felt it important to inform IB (and other readers) of the context in which a reader might find this extremely offensive and that there are provisions in UK law that could potentially be invoked by an offended party. 

Regards,

Willy. 

Willy: You're obviously a bright man. 

However, your last paragraph is over-the-top, namely, quote:

" However this post, whether intentionally or not, has crossed a line. I would urge posters in future to think very carefully about what they say here, how it reflects upon Naim, and how it could lead to an uncomfortable conversation with your local constabulary."

Willy, seriously ?  "crossed a line", " think very carefully" (are we in a court of law here?), "reflect upon Naim"??  and finally, the best one " could lead to an uncomfortable conversation with your local constabulary." (Wow -the political police are surely tracking hi-fi enthusiast remarks)

Good God, I don't know what's going on over there, but  your political sentiments are best directed in a more appropriate forum (where such passionate folk as yourself can battle out the details to your hearts content) as opposed to grilling someone on a such a (politically benign) forum (such as Naim Hi-Fi).

pj 

Willy posted:

Timmo1341 posted:

Willy posted:

<snip>

The DUP are a British political party. They are largest party in Northern Ireland which is part of the United Kingdom.

 <snip>

<snip>

My concern was that simply pointing out the technical inaccuracy would not have conveyed the level of offence that some readers could take from this posting. I felt it important to inform IB (and other readers) of the context in which a reader might find this extremely offensive and that there are provisions in UK law that could potentially be invoked by an offended party. 

Regards,

Willy. 

Willy,

Technically, the DUP are not actually British, but you are correct that Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom:

Or, to give it it's full title the "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland".

Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom, but not part of Great Britain.

This is from someone who in the 1970s was on the list of "legitimate targets" for the IRA (I was a scientific civil servant) and also a relative of one of the commanders of the garrison at Enniskillen who was murdered by the forces of Hugh Maguire.   But that long dead conflict is still no reason to reignite the hatred of war and I'm disturbed that anyone should wish to bring the troubles back into this forum.

allhifi posted:

Willy: You're obviously a bright man. 

However, your last paragraph is over-the-top, namely, quote:

" However this post, whether intentionally or not, has crossed a line. I would urge posters in future to think very carefully about what they say here, how it reflects upon Naim, and how it could lead to an uncomfortable conversation with your local constabulary."

Willy, seriously ?  "crossed a line", " think very carefully" (are we in a court of law here?), "reflect upon Naim"??  and finally, the best one " could lead to an uncomfortable conversation with your local constabulary." (Wow -the political police are surely tracking hi-fi enthusiast remarks)

Good God, I don't know what's going on over there, but  your political sentiments are best directed in a more appropriate forum (where such passionate folk as yourself can battle out the details to your hearts content) as opposed to grilling someone on a such a (politically benign) forum (such as Naim Hi-Fi).

pj 

PJ,

Firstly let me point out that I have not in this post expressed any of my own political views in this matter. I have simply pointed out that there are British citizens in the DUP who have suffered at the hands of Irish Nationalist terrorists and would be extremely offended at being branded as Irish. 

I pointed that there are provisions in law relating to what you can and cannot say about another persons race and In my view what has been said, whether intentionally or not, has crossed that line in to the area (minefield) of race. Whether anyone would choose to pursue such a matter is up to them. If such action were to be pursued I have not ventured any opinion on what the outcome might be. 

I never suggested that we are in a court of law, however we are in a publicly accessible forum and as such there is the potential for someone who would consider the post offensive, on grounds of their racial identity, to read it.

Again, I have not expressed any political opinions here, merely pointed out the potential hazard of posting on a public forum in matters of race.

Regards,

Willy.

Huge posted:

Willy posted:

Timmo1341 posted:

Willy posted:

<snip>

The DUP are a British political party. They are largest party in Northern Ireland which is part of the United Kingdom.

 <snip>

<snip>

My concern was that simply pointing out the technical inaccuracy would not have conveyed the level of offence that some readers could take from this posting. I felt it important to inform IB (and other readers) of the context in which a reader might find this extremely offensive and that there are provisions in UK law that could potentially be invoked by an offended party. 

Regards,

Willy. 

Willy,

Technically, the DUP are not actually British, but you are correct that Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom:

Or, to give it it's full title the "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland".

Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom, but not part of Great Britain.

This is from someone who in the 1970s was on the list of "legitimate targets" for the IRA (I was a scientific civil servant) and also a relative of one of the commanders of the garrison at Enniskillen who was murdered by the forces of Hugh Maguire.   But that long dead conflict is still no reason to reignite the hatred of war and I'm disturbed that anyone should wish to bring the troubles back into this forum.

Technically the individual members of the DUP are in the greater part British citizens.  I'm fully aware of the full title of The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Hard to live here and not be.

None of this alters my assertion that there are DUP members who may consider being branded as Irish to be extremely offensive. Also that there may be scope for such offence to be considered within the provisions of "race" law. 

I in no way suggested bringing back a discussion of the troubles to this forum, merely provided what I considered sufficient historical context as to why a DUP member might be so offended at being branded Irish. I would have raised the issue if I thought any other post could potentially be perceived as a racial slur. 

Additionally I pointed out that I considered a comment relating to "women drivers" to be inappropriate for this forum.

Feel free to call me, as a still unrepentant Brexiteer, anything you like. I'm not easily offended. But the principal thrust of my post was that we should all take care what we say in a publicly accessible forum.

Regards,

Willy.

Willy posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

Clive B posted:

Timmo1341 posted:

Absolutely not. I am one of those not ashamed to admit having voted 'leave' who would now, unhesitatingly, vote to remain. I misjudged the ability of certain politicians to negotiate a satisfactory outcome, and now see we would have been better placed negotiating change from within. I am still implacably opposed to creeping federalism, but with this government of witless wa**ers we'll really suffer in the wilderness.

The approach being taken by the Tories is unforgivable. My greatest hope is that leaving without a deal will be so catastrophic it will result in another vote, which would undoubtedly witness a significant majority in favour of rejoining. 

I think we're in for an interesting couple of years!!

We should remember that David Cameron tried to negotiate from within in February last year. The EU didn't listen. Now there is talk at least of reform within the EU. Be sure though that if we were ever to seek to rejoin we'd pay more; we would never again enjoy the rebate negotiated by Margaret Thatcher. 

 

As for the Irish party propping up the tories, how come they can't see how bad it will be for Ireland, and force the issue by removing their support?

 

I presume by the “Irish party” you are referring to the Democratic Unionist Party. If so I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you did so out of naivety rather than any malice.

The DUP are a British political party. They are largest party in Northern Ireland which is part of the United Kingdom. That status is enshrined in Law, most recently in the Good Friday Agreement, and will remain so until a majority of its constituents vote otherwise. (Taking into consideration the polling that has been done on the mater only a fool or a fantasist would believe that status is likely to change in the foreseeable future.)

Over the past decades numerous members of the DUP have been maimed, or murdered by Irish Nationalist terrorists either because they were in the service of the British police or British army, or simply because of their political/religious affiliation. Many more members of the DUP have seen parents, spouses, siblings, children, friends and constituents maimed and murdered by Irish National terrorists. 

Hopefully you’ll now understand that referring to the DUP as the “Irish Party” is at best insensitive and will be considered by some to be grossly offensive, bordering on racism and arguably hate speech.

 

I have noted a trend in this topic to hurl insults with gay abandon. For example, Brexiteers are all “ignorant” and “selfish”. If that’s how you folks want to run this thread then fine, I can always  go elsewhere and read about cables.

It’s of more concern that there’s been possibly sexist comment, for example denigration of “women drivers” in here. Not so happy with that but I’ll leave it to the moderators to make the judgement call.

However this post, whether intentionally or not, has crossed a line. I would urge posters in future to think very carefully about what they say here, how it reflects upon Naim, and how it could lead to an uncomfortable conversation with your local constabulary.

Regards,

Willy.

 

Others have already responded to this, and I am grateful for the clear recognition of my meaning in their words.

It was certainly not my intent to make any political or racial statement about the Irish, nor the Republic of Ireland, nor Northern Ireland, nor any citizens of either, and I unreservedly apologise if my terminology hit a sensitive nerve in anyone.

For the sake of absolute clarity for anyone misunderstanding or misconstruing my last post, "the Irish party" was indeed a reference to the DUP, not remembering their precise name at the time of writing, but thinking that term in the context I used it was very obviously them and only them. The word "Irish" in that term meant simply that they were from Northern Ireland as opposed to other parts of the UK. If the term 'Irish' is incorrect for someone from Northern Ireland then that is something of which I was unaware, in which case I apologise (though I believe it is probably a near universal lack of awareness among people outside of the island of Ireland). And the word "Ireland" in both the preceeding sentence and my last post meant the entire island comprising Eire and Northern Ireland, and its use in my last post was thinking about the effects of having to reinstate a hard border, economically as well as any potential political effects, all of which I suspect are likely to be negative rather than positive, on both sides of the border: again I thought that would be readily understood by any reader.

And before this very response provokes any further outburst, I will state here that I do not know which term is politically correct for that nation, the Republic of Ireland or Eire, and no meaning or offence is intended by using one in place of the other.

I trust that my last post is now clear in having a complete absence of any racial or ethnic meaning or intent, or indeed any other 'hate crime' unless hating the significant negative effects of Brexit is a crime.

Willy,

IB did not refer to individual members of the DUP as Irish or brand them as such.  He referred to the party as Irish.  Completely different thing.  (However it may well have been better to have specified "Northern Irish" or "Irish Unionist" in view of the sensitivities in such matters.)

Furthermore the party isn't a British citizen, and it can't bring action under the Equality Act 2010 (or any other "race" law) - only individuals have that right.

Update IB has now clarified his position and that he did not intend any offence, so I hope this can now be considered over.

Willy posted:

allhifi posted:

Willy: You're obviously a bright man. 

However, your last paragraph is over-the-top, namely, quote:

" However this post, whether intentionally or not, has crossed a line. I would urge posters in future to think very carefully about what they say here, how it reflects upon Naim, and how it could lead to an uncomfortable conversation with your local constabulary."

Willy, seriously ?  "crossed a line", " think very carefully" (are we in a court of law here?), "reflect upon Naim"??  and finally, the best one " could lead to an uncomfortable conversation with your local constabulary." (Wow -the political police are surely tracking hi-fi enthusiast remarks)

Good God, I don't know what's going on over there, but  your political sentiments are best directed in a more appropriate forum (where such passionate folk as yourself can battle out the details to your hearts content) as opposed to grilling someone on a such a (politically benign) forum (such as Naim Hi-Fi).

pj 

PJ,

Firstly let me point out that I have not in this post expressed any of my own political views in this matter. I have simply pointed out that there are British citizens in the DUP who have suffered at the hands of Irish Nationalist terrorists and would be extremely offended at being branded as Irish. 

I pointed that there are provisions in law relating to what you can and cannot say about another persons race and In my view what has been said, whether intentionally or not, has crossed that line in to the area (minefield) of race. Whether anyone would choose to pursue such a matter is up to them. If such action were to be pursued I have not ventured any opinion on what the outcome might be. 

I never suggested that we are in a court of law, however we are in a publicly accessible forum and as such there is the potential for someone who would consider the post offensive, on grounds of their racial identity, to read it.

Again, I have not expressed any political opinions here, merely pointed out the potential hazard of posting on a public forum in matters of race.

Regards,

Willy.

Will: I'm the farthest thing from having (conceding to) any political stance (or indeed the "sensitivities" of readers). In the USA, do you recall/know of (you must) of the landmark ruling of Flynt (Larry) vs. The Delicately Insulted"  (or something like that) ? 

Thankfully, mercifully, it gave (much needed and welcomed) protection to speak openly and freely about basically anything you wish. As Mr. Flynt (correctly) pointed out; someone always, somewhere, somehow  will be offended by remarks of some type -on any subject matter.

So we must set up "laws" to protect the offended ? Words are spoken. Things are said; in good humor, to share a laugh, jokes, criticism, racial references etc., etc. Get over it. Move on. Do you believe the salient minorities (for example) are free from racial (or religious) slurs heaped upon others ? I assure you, many are not the innocent, beat-up by-standers some believe them to be. 

Anyway, I sure hope similar protection of speech made it around the world in simple effort and recognition (and protection) of (in one word), sensibility.   

Therefore, it should come as no surprise for me to consider you sentiments; " ....and as such there is the potential for someone who would consider the post offensive, on grounds of their racial identity, to read it."

Who gives a crap. Or should we find a warm blanket and tender words to console them ?

I'm done with this topic.

pj  

Innocent Bystander posted:

Willy posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

Clive B posted:

Timmo1341 posted:

Absolutely not. I am one of those not ashamed to admit having voted 'leave' who would now, unhesitatingly, vote to remain. I misjudged the ability of certain politicians to negotiate a satisfactory outcome, and now see we would have been better placed negotiating change from within. I am still implacably opposed to creeping federalism, but with this government of witless wa**ers we'll really suffer in the wilderness.

The approach being taken by the Tories is unforgivable. My greatest hope is that leaving without a deal will be so catastrophic it will result in another vote, which would undoubtedly witness a significant majority in favour of rejoining. 

I think we're in for an interesting couple of years!!

We should remember that David Cameron tried to negotiate from within in February last year. The EU didn't listen. Now there is talk at least of reform within the EU. Be sure though that if we were ever to seek to rejoin we'd pay more; we would never again enjoy the rebate negotiated by Margaret Thatcher. 

 

As for the Irish party propping up the tories, how come they can't see how bad it will be for Ireland, and force the issue by removing their support?

 

I presume by the “Irish party” you are referring to the Democratic Unionist Party. If so I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you did so out of naivety rather than any malice.

The DUP are a British political party. They are largest party in Northern Ireland which is part of the United Kingdom. That status is enshrined in Law, most recently in the Good Friday Agreement, and will remain so until a majority of its constituents vote otherwise. (Taking into consideration the polling that has been done on the mater only a fool or a fantasist would believe that status is likely to change in the foreseeable future.)

Over the past decades numerous members of the DUP have been maimed, or murdered by Irish Nationalist terrorists either because they were in the service of the British police or British army, or simply because of their political/religious affiliation. Many more members of the DUP have seen parents, spouses, siblings, children, friends and constituents maimed and murdered by Irish National terrorists. 

Hopefully you’ll now understand that referring to the DUP as the “Irish Party” is at best insensitive and will be considered by some to be grossly offensive, bordering on racism and arguably hate speech.

 

I have noted a trend in this topic to hurl insults with gay abandon. For example, Brexiteers are all “ignorant” and “selfish”. If that’s how you folks want to run this thread then fine, I can always  go elsewhere and read about cables.

It’s of more concern that there’s been possibly sexist comment, for example denigration of “women drivers” in here. Not so happy with that but I’ll leave it to the moderators to make the judgement call.

However this post, whether intentionally or not, has crossed a line. I would urge posters in future to think very carefully about what they say here, how it reflects upon Naim, and how it could lead to an uncomfortable conversation with your local constabulary.

Regards,

Willy.

 

Others have already responded to this, and I am grateful for the clear recognition of my meaning in their words.

It was certainly not my intent to make any political or racial statement about the Irish, nor the Republic of Ireland, nor Northern Ireland, nor any citizens of either, and I unreservedly apologise if my terminology hit a sensitive nerve in anyone.

For the sake of absolute clarity for anyone misunderstanding or misconstruing my last post, "the Irish party" was indeed a reference to the DUP, not remembering their precise name at the time of writing, but thinking that term in the context I used it was very obviously them and only them. The word "Irish" in that term meant simply that they were from Northern Ireland as opposed to other parts of the UK. If the term 'Irish' is incorrect for someone from Northern Ireland then that is something of which I was unaware, in which case I apologise (though I believe it is probably a near universal lack of awareness among people outside of the island of Ireland). And the word "Ireland" in both the preceeding sentence and my last post meant the entire island comprising Eire and Northern Ireland, and its use in my last post was thinking about the effects of having to reinstate a hard border, economically as well as any potential political effects, all of which I suspect are likely to be negative rather than positive, on both sides of the border: again I thought that would be readily understood by any reader.

And before this very response provokes any further outburst, I will state here that I do not know which term is politically correct for that nation, the Republic of Ireland or Eire, and no meaning or offence is intended by using one in place of the other.

I trust that my last post is now clear in having a complete absence of any racial or ethnic meaning or intent, or indeed any other 'hate crime' unless hating the significant negative effects of Brexit is a crime.

IB,

Well said.

"If the term 'Irish' is incorrect for someone from Northern Ireland"

I don't believe that there is a single term that can be safely used for someone from Northern Ireland, some view themselves as Irish, some as British, some as both (would selfishly suggest these could be labelled pragmatists). Hell they can't even agree on what to call the second city though seem to have a compromise of Derry/Londonderry. That's even what it says on the buses going there!

For obvious historical reasons the issue of identity runs deep. It was in instances quite literally a matter of life and death. Any perceived questioning of identity can still produce a quite disproportionate reaction. I'd like to think that over the next generation or two it'll all normalise, but then I catch the local news and am reminded what our politicians (on both sides) are like........... 

Regards,

Willy.

allhifi posted:

Willy posted:

allhifi posted:

Willy: You're obviously a bright man. 

However, your last paragraph is over-the-top, namely, quote:

" However this post, whether intentionally or not, has crossed a line. I would urge posters in future to think very carefully about what they say here, how it reflects upon Naim, and how it could lead to an uncomfortable conversation with your local constabulary."

Willy, seriously ?  "crossed a line", " think very carefully" (are we in a court of law here?), "reflect upon Naim"??  and finally, the best one " could lead to an uncomfortable conversation with your local constabulary." (Wow -the political police are surely tracking hi-fi enthusiast remarks)

Good God, I don't know what's going on over there, but  your political sentiments are best directed in a more appropriate forum (where such passionate folk as yourself can battle out the details to your hearts content) as opposed to grilling someone on a such a (politically benign) forum (such as Naim Hi-Fi).

pj 

PJ,

Firstly let me point out that I have not in this post expressed any of my own political views in this matter. I have simply pointed out that there are British citizens in the DUP who have suffered at the hands of Irish Nationalist terrorists and would be extremely offended at being branded as Irish. 

I pointed that there are provisions in law relating to what you can and cannot say about another persons race and In my view what has been said, whether intentionally or not, has crossed that line in to the area (minefield) of race. Whether anyone would choose to pursue such a matter is up to them. If such action were to be pursued I have not ventured any opinion on what the outcome might be. 

I never suggested that we are in a court of law, however we are in a publicly accessible forum and as such there is the potential for someone who would consider the post offensive, on grounds of their racial identity, to read it.

Again, I have not expressed any political opinions here, merely pointed out the potential hazard of posting on a public forum in matters of race.

Regards,

Willy.

Will: I'm the farthest thing from having (conceding to) any political stance (or indeed the "sensitivities" of readers). In the USA, do you recall/know of (you must) of the landmark ruling of Flynt (Larry) vs. The Delicately Insulted"  (or something like that) ? 

Thankfully, mercifully, it gave (much needed and welcomed) protection to speak openly and freely about basically anything you wish. As Mr. Flynt (correctly) pointed out; someone always, somewhere, somehow  will be offended by remarks of some type -on any subject matter.

So we must set up "laws" to protect the offended ? Words are spoken. Things are said; in good humor, to share a laugh, jokes, criticism, racial references etc., etc. Get over it. Move on. Do you believe the salient minorities (for example) are free from racial (or religious) slurs heaped upon others ? I assure you, many are not the innocent, beat-up by-standers some believe them to be. 

Anyway, I sure hope similar protection of speech made it around the world in simple effort and recognition (and protection) of (in one word), sensibility.   

Therefore, it should come as no surprise for me to consider you sentiments; " ....and as such there is the potential for someone who would consider the post offensive, on grounds of their racial identity, to read it."

Who gives a crap. Or should we find a warm blanket and tender words to console them ?

I'm done with this topic.

pj  

 

pj,

I'm one of the most politically incorrect people on the planet. Personally I don't give a crap if anyone is offended by what I say or do, especially when, as happens from time to time, I set out to deliberately offend. Actually then I'm rather pleased at accomplishing something I set out to do. That said I am cognizant of the current balance between free speech and perceived slight and always exercise caution in my postings.  There are certain things we know we cannot say, certain words that we know we dare not use and I am simply suggesting an addition to this knowledge-base.

The background to this is the somewhat unique situation that prevails in NI. Few of the posters on here will be aware of this and I hope my input has helped you all understand what an unusual place this is!

At no point in my previous posts did I offer an opinion on whether or not this situation, where everyone seems to be demanding a legal right to not be offended was a good one. The first paragraph of this post has probably clarified that.

Regards,

Willy.

Hi Will: I understand. And you should understand no one really gives a hoot about " that there was a potential that an offended party may have grounds for legal redress given the current state/interpretation of law here in the UK "

I have to laugh; "an offended party" ! Honestly. You know what those offended "parties" can do.

You know, if I didn't know better, I'd say there are those out there "feeling out" public sentiment and feeding it back to the machine. You wouldn't know anyone like that would you ? In fact, do you believe such Stealthy Rogues even exist ? Have you seen them? Spoken to them? Know them? Or one?

Let 's move on. I've had it up to here with this crap.

Let's talk flippi'n glorious music, and not  about the garbage floating and poisoning peaceful, beautiful, musical waters ...

pj   

Even for this thread I have to say we seem to have wondered off piste somewhat 

Regarding racism, to be a crime there has to be intent, rather than possible naivety as to how certain paricular people might take a choice of words, and I am quite content that to anyone objectively reading that was clearly not the case even without any explanations.

However the all too recent history in Northern Ireland, and the undoubtedly still raw memories and possible political undercurrents alluded to by Willy, cannot be unerestimated in terms of potential for negative consequences if the wrong thing is said in the wrong place, and perhaps for someone very close to it there could be particular heightened sensitivities, which I assume was the trigger in this case. Recognising that I did feel it appropriate to give my respectful explanation, rather than retort unfeelingly.

i do think this particular sensitivity has been aired adequately, so time to get back to Brexit. I just wish that the politicians who are supposed to be in control would pause for a moment to consider just exactly what is truly in the best interests of the UK as a whole, and achievable, and do it.

thebigfredc posted:

HMAK you do most of us 'outies' a disservice.

We weren't swayed by the financial numbers spewed by politicians at the time of the pole but by our longstanding objections to the EUs undeniable interference of our sovereignty, autonomy and territoriality.

Ray

I don't think you can legitimately claim that "we weren't swayed by the financial numbers spewed by politicians". You can certainly legitimately claim that you (and many others on the Brexit side)  weren't swayed by the financial claims of the Brexit camp. However, there is little doubt that some people on the 'leave' side will have been influenced by the claims of Boris and others. Most of these people will probably not have completely believed the exaggerated claims (or more accurately downright lies) regarding the windfall that would fund the NHS, but they may well have been heavily influenced by the rhetoric.

Timmo1341 asked the pertinent question - which way would you vote now with the advantage of hindsight, now that you see just how badly the exit process is being handles by our Government, and now that we are faced with the disastrous prospect of leaving without a decent trade treaty in place?

I will ask the supplementary question - do you believe that the removal of the influence of the EU in matters of our sovereignty, autonomy and territoriality is worth the price we may have to pay in respect of our economy and that of our children, no matter what the cost might prove to be?

allhifi posted:

Hi Will: I understand. And you should understand no one really gives a hoot about " that there was a potential that an offended party may have grounds for legal redress given the current state/interpretation of law here in the UK "

I have to laugh; "an offended party" ! Honestly. You know what those offended "parties" can do.

Yes. If that offence contravenes the current interpretation of what is lawful then those "offended" parties can seek legal redress. You may not like the law as it stands, you may not give a hoot about the law, you can mock the law, you can campaign for the law to be changed but ultimately if you break the law you can be held accountable. The points on my driving licence are testament to this fact.

You know, if I didn't know better, I'd say there are those out there "feeling out" public sentiment and feeding it back to the machine. That's entirely possible.

You wouldn't know anyone like that would you ?Not that I'm aware of but I guess the NUS would be a good place to start if you were looking for such a person. 

In fact, do you believe such Stealthy Rogues even exist ? Never encountered the term before.Not knowing what it is I can't say that I disbelieve in them. Is it some kind of Star Wars spacecraft?

Have you seen them? Not that I'm aware of  but then I've no idea what they'd look like. I haven't seen all the Star Wars movies.

Spoken to them? If they talk then I'm guessing they're unlikely to be Star Wars spacecraft. 

Know them? Definitely not a Star Wars spacecraft.

Or one? Or one what?

Let 's move on. I've had it up to here with this crap.

Let's talk flippi'n glorious music, and not  about the garbage floating and poisoning peaceful, beautiful, musical waters ...

pj   

Regards,

Willy.

allhifi posted:

<snip>

Let's talk flippi'n glorious music, and not  about the garbage floating and poisoning peaceful, beautiful, musical waters ...

pj   

Well at least that bit's good.

For me, I find the music of J. S. B., A. Corelli, A. Vivaldi and W. Boyce to be the best anti-depressant I know of.

Huge posted:

allhifi posted:

<snip>

Let's talk flippi'n glorious music, and not  about the garbage floating and poisoning peaceful, beautiful, musical waters ...

pj   

Well at least that bit's good.

For me, I find the music of J. S. B., A. Corelli, A. Vivaldi and W. Boyce to be the best anti-depressant I know of.

Rather partial to the Bach Cello Suites. Find they can get through to me no matter what my frame of mind. A daughter of a friend who played with the Ulster Youth Orchestra gave us a short recital one evening in their house. Yes it did make my SL2s sound broken. Also surprised as to how loud a single cello could get.

Willy.

allhifi posted:

Hi Will: I understand. And you should understand no one really gives a hoot about " that there was a potential that an offended party may have grounds for legal redress given the current state/interpretation of law here in the UK "

I have to laugh; "an offended party" ! Honestly. You know what those offended "parties" can do.

You know, if I didn't know better, I'd say there are those out there "feeling out" public sentiment and feeding it back to the machine. You wouldn't know anyone like that would you ? In fact, do you believe such Stealthy Rogues even exist ? Have you seen them? Spoken to them? Know them? Or one?

Let 's move on. I've had it up to here with this crap.

Let's talk flippi'n glorious music, and not  about the garbage floating and poisoning peaceful, beautiful, musical waters ...

pj   

Once again my ignorance of the modern world is rectified with the help of Google search! Now I know 'Stealthy Rogues' are characters inhabiting the World Of Warcraft, the message contained within all hifi's post becomes clearer: it's all pure fantasy!!

Post Brexit Britain will be ushered in with a new National Anthem! 

Elgar's death of democracy funeral march of the cliff edge 

Bach, Mozart, Beethoven will all be banned in Little Britain because they're Germans

Frederic Chopin's music will also be banned to because he's Polish*

*(Except for the funeral march because they had to get a Polish bloke in to write it)

Peoples of the Little Britain will be force to listen to Elgar, Ben Jamming Britton, and Andrew Lloyd Webber only.

Naim_Nymph posted: 

"Peoples of the Little Britain will be force to listen to Elgar, Ben Jamming Britton, and Andrew Lloyd Webber only".

Nooooooooooo!