Are we sleep-walking out of Europe ?

Hmack posted:

thebigfredc posted:

HMAK you do most of us 'outies' a disservice.

We weren't swayed by the financial numbers spewed by politicians at the time of the pole but by our longstanding objections to the EUs undeniable interference of our sovereignty, autonomy and territoriality.

Ray

I don't think you can legitimately claim that "we weren't swayed by the financial numbers spewed by politicians". You can certainly legitimately claim that you (and many others on the Brexit side)  weren't swayed by the financial claims of the Brexit camp. However, there is little doubt that some people on the 'leave' side will have been influenced by the claims of Boris and others. Most of these people will probably not have completely believed the exaggerated claims (or more accurately downright lies) regarding the windfall that would fund the NHS, but they may well have been heavily influenced by the rhetoric.

Timmo1341 asked the pertinent question - which way would you vote now with the advantage of hindsight, now that you see just how badly the exit process is being handles by our Government, and now that we are faced with the disastrous prospect of leaving without a decent trade treaty in place?

I will ask the supplementary question - do you believe that the removal of the influence of the EU in matters of our sovereignty, autonomy and territoriality is worth the price we may have to pay in respect of our economy and that of our children, no matter what the cost might prove to be?

    

I voted out on the assumption there would be no trade deal. We should all get together and develop this country on our own terms. If we did that everything would be fine. The trouble is all the  Politicians and just under half the population want everything to go tits up. We're looking like total amateurs to the EU.  Let's move on, they're going down without us anyway and when they do we'll be in a better place.

My understanding, though I am no expert, is that no trade deal means that any export  trade to EU countries is subject to full import duty there,  That will make UK produce, of any description, more expensive in the EU than their home products (and significantly more expensive than now), therefore uncompetitive, and so sales will drop drastically. In addition it is very possible we will have to prove compliance with their legislation pertaining to the goods on every consignment, including everything for which there is simply a presumption now, so that will add ro effort and cost.

And there is no reason to expect any better terms with the rest of the world than we had or could have have while in the EU.

On that basis, no trade deal will cost the UK dear, And possibly lose significant employment partly through EU-centric businesses relocating to the EU, and partly through the reduced export sales.

I think the British are really quite a compliant race.

By that I mean we don't complain much and are very mindful of our place in relation to class.

The French, Aussies and Americans for example are far more confrontational. 

It seems to me that we do have a limit though and the interference from Brussells, Strasbourg etc gave us reason to find our balls and use them.

We absolutely had to stop the creeping eU single nation takeover moves, but that did not mean throwing the baby out with the bathwater, instead we needed poepwerful negotiators to persuade a majority of member states that there should be limits to EU sovereignty.

Drewy posted:

I voted out on the assumption there would be no trade deal. We should all get together and develop this country on our own terms. If we did that everything would be fine.

Your statement there sound very much little “Little Britain”, “we’re all mighty and everyone should fall at our feet” kind of rhetoric.  The problem with that thinking is that the world we live in requires cooperation.  The economy of the U.K. relies on cooperation - and you are sitting there telling the world we don’t need you.

As for trading with the rest of the world, well the U.K. is going from being part of 500 million people with a GDP of $16 trillion to a lone entity of 65 million with a GDP of $2.6 trillion.  So yes the EU will be significantly shrunk by the U.K. leaving, but the U.K. becomes a minnow.

And you think we’ll get rid of EU bureaucracy... not significantly as to trade with the EU you have to follow the EU rules and compliance.  All trade deals with the EU have that stipulation.

The trouble is all the  Politicians and just under half the population want everything to go tits up. We're looking like total amateurs to the EU.  Let's move on, they're going down without us anyway and when they do we'll be in a better place.

Ironically, the people who want everything to go tits up are the Brexit supporters.  The rehtoric coming from them about how the EU is trying to punish the U.K. and similar is only going to come true if the negotiations fall down.  So your right half the population want everything to go tits up (well half of those who voted anyway) ... the half that voted leave.  That way they can be reassured the decision was right because the EU were as nasty as they thought.

Those on the remain side are (for the most part) trying to get a deal out of this which saves as much of the economy as possible.  Yes they are saying that you will never get any deal as good as being a member... they want to reverse the decision because they think it’s best for the country, but they are also pushing for the next best thing too.

thebigfredc posted:

I think the British are really quite a compliant race.

By that I mean we don't complain much and are very mindful of our place in relation to class.

Your right... look how all the proles rolled over and voted for Brexit when the upper and ruling class told them to...

The French, Aussies and Americans for example are far more confrontational. 

It seems to me that we do have a limit though and the interference from Brussells, Strasbourg etc gave us reason to find our balls and use them.

It wasn’t interference from Brussels... it was working in cooperation with our allies.

Sorry Eloise but when we are told what power vacuum cleaners to use and that we can't deport this or that person that is interference from an unelected and unaccountable EU in my book.

thebigfredc posted:

Sorry Eloise but when we are told what power vacuum cleaners to use and that we can't deport this or that person that is interference from an unelected and unaccountable EU in my book.

Don't forget the straight bananas!

Willy posted:

 

 

Hopefully you’ll now understand that referring to the DUP as the “Irish Party” is at best insensitive and will be considered by some to be grossly offensive, bordering on racism and arguably hate speech.

 

However this post, whether intentionally or not, has crossed a line. I would urge posters in future to think very carefully about what they say here, how it reflects upon Naim, and how it could lead to an uncomfortable conversation with your local constabulary.

 

My concern was that simply pointing out the technical inaccuracy would not have conveyed the level of offence that some readers could take from this posting. I felt it important to inform IB (and other readers) of the context in which a reader might find this extremely offensive and that there are provisions in UK law that could potentially be invoked by an offended party. 

Regards,

Willy. 

Willy no doubt there are many thousands of people from across the border in Ireland who are equally offended that the DUP has been dubbed an' Irish Party.'

Eloise posted:

Your (sic) right... look how all the proles rolled over and voted for Brexit when the upper and ruling class told them to...

I recall that the then Prime Minister and chancellor of the exchequer, who must by position be of the ruling class, were trying to persuade the 'proles' to vote remain.

Bob the Builder posted:

thebigfredc posted:

Sorry Eloise but when we are told what power vacuum cleaners to use and that we can't deport this or that person that is interference from an unelected and unaccountable EU in my book.

Don't forget the straight bananas!

Also the Euro Sausage and the High Fat Offal Tube!

Indeed, some EU laws seem ridiculous: though I understand the oft-cited straight banana is a fallacy (a red herring?). The vast majority are eminently sensible, and quite a few are not universally binding. Indications are that to trade with EU countries from outside, we will still have to comply with any that might affect the cost of goods we sell, including, for example, all environmental legislation - and with less chance of avoiding complying because we will have to demonstrate that we comply. The alternative is the disaster that is no trade (it is unrelated to any trade deal).

Eloise posted:

Drewy posted:

I voted out on the assumption there would be no trade deal. We should all get together and develop this country on our own terms. If we did that everything would be fine.

Your statement there sound very much little “Little Britain”, “we’re all mighty and everyone should fall at our feet” kind of rhetoric.  The problem with that thinking is that the world we live in requires cooperation.  The economy of the U.K. relies on cooperation - and you are sitting there telling the world we don’t need you.

As for trading with the rest of the world, well the U.K. is going from being part of 500 million people with a GDP of $16 trillion to a lone entity of 65 million with a GDP of $2.6 trillion.  So yes the EU will be significantly shrunk by the U.K. leaving, but the U.K. becomes a minnow.

And you think we’ll get rid of EU bureaucracy... not significantly as to trade with the EU you have to follow the EU rules and compliance.  All trade deals with the EU have that stipulation.

The trouble is all the  Politicians and just under half the population want everything to go tits up. We're looking like total amateurs to the EU.  Let's move on, they're going down without us anyway and when they do we'll be in a better place.

Ironically, the people who want everything to go tits up are the Brexit supporters.  The rehtoric coming from them about how the EU is trying to punish the U.K. and similar is only going to come true if the negotiations fall down.  So your right half the population want everything to go tits up (well half of those who voted anyway) ... the half that voted leave.  That way they can be reassured the decision was right because the EU were as nasty as they thought.

Those on the remain side are (for the most part) trying to get a deal out of this which saves as much of the economy as possible.  Yes they are saying that you will never get any deal as good as being a member... they want to reverse the decision because they think it’s best for the country, but they are also pushing for the next best thing too.

You're really overdoing it. The more you write the more sure of my opinion I am.  

Innocent Bystander posted:

Indeed, some EU laws seem ridiculous: though I understand the oft-cited straight banana is a fallacy (a red herring?). The vast majority are eminently sensible, and quite a few are not universally binding. Indications are that to trade with EU countries from outside, we will still have to comply with any that might affect the cost of goods we sell, including, for example, all environmental legislation - and with less chance of avoiding complying because we will have to demonstrate that we comply. The alternative is the disaster that is no trade (it is unrelated to any trade deal).

I know about the straight banana fallacy, in fact the "Euro Sausage and the High Fat Offal Tube" is taken from Yes Minister!

And the other points you make are equally justified.

Drewy posted:

Eloise posted:

Drewy posted:

I voted out on the assumption there would be no trade deal. We should all get together and develop this country on our own terms. If we did that everything would be fine.

Your statement there sound very much little “Little Britain”, “we’re all mighty and everyone should fall at our feet” kind of rhetoric.  The problem with that thinking is that the world we live in requires cooperation.  The economy of the U.K. relies on cooperation - and you are sitting there telling the world we don’t need you.

As for trading with the rest of the world, well the U.K. is going from being part of 500 million people with a GDP of $16 trillion to a lone entity of 65 million with a GDP of $2.6 trillion.  So yes the EU will be significantly shrunk by the U.K. leaving, but the U.K. becomes a minnow.

And you think we’ll get rid of EU bureaucracy... not significantly as to trade with the EU you have to follow the EU rules and compliance.  All trade deals with the EU have that stipulation.

The trouble is all the  Politicians and just under half the population want everything to go tits up. We're looking like total amateurs to the EU.  Let's move on, they're going down without us anyway and when they do we'll be in a better place.

Ironically, the people who want everything to go tits up are the Brexit supporters.  The rehtoric coming from them about how the EU is trying to punish the U.K. and similar is only going to come true if the negotiations fall down.  So your right half the population want everything to go tits up (well half of those who voted anyway) ... the half that voted leave.  That way they can be reassured the decision was right because the EU were as nasty as they thought.

Those on the remain side are (for the most part) trying to get a deal out of this which saves as much of the economy as possible.  Yes they are saying that you will never get any deal as good as being a member... they want to reverse the decision because they think it’s best for the country, but they are also pushing for the next best thing too.

You're really overdoing it. The more you write the more sure of my opinion I am.  

Then we agree on something...

Don't forget:  The sun never sets on the British Empire!

Whoever said, quote:

" We weren't swayed by the financial numbers spewed by politicians at the time of the pole but by our longstanding objections to the EUs undeniable interference of our sovereignty, autonomy and territoriality."

Indeed. You guys will be just fine. Political bantering  shall subside and the UK's strength in the global economy shall find its rightful place.

The overbearing power of the EU is indeed dangerous for nation autonomy -particularly for the UK .

When the dust settles, I truly believe the nation will be a much better place -for all of the right reasons. 

pj

allhifi posted:

Indeed. You guys will be just fine. Political bantering  shall subside and the UK's strength in the global economy shall find its rightful place.

Unfortunately that may be a much lower placing than hitherto, and lower than most people like to think is the UK's 'rightful' place.

allhifi posted:

When the dust settles, I truly believe the nation will be a much better place -for all of the right reasons. 

I hope you are right, but very much fear you are wrong.

allhifi posted:

Whoever said, quote:

" We weren't swayed by the financial numbers spewed by politicians at the time of the pole but by our longstanding objections to the EUs undeniable interference of our sovereignty, autonomy and territoriality."

Indeed. You guys will be just fine. Political bantering  shall subside and the UK's strength in the global economy shall find its rightful place.

The overbearing power of the EU is indeed dangerous for nation autonomy -particularly for the UK .

When the dust settles, I truly believe the nation will be a much better place -for all of the right reasons. 

pj

From which side of the Atlantic are you making such sage pronouncements?

A 3,000+ mile long view that's over the horizon and obscured by clouds

Huge posted:

A 3,000+ mile long view that's over the horizon and obscured by clouds

That was my guess too, but didn't want to be accused of unfounded assumption with undertones of anti-yank!!

West -Canada.

pj

Timmo1341 posted:

Huge posted:

A 3,000+ mile long view that's over the horizon and obscured by clouds

That was my guess too, but didn't want to be accused of unfounded assumption with undertones of anti-yank!!

Touche', (lol) ;

"A 3,000+ mile long view that's over the horizon and obscured by clouds"

Right then. The dust hasn't settled. Time shall and does reveal perspective. With some more under your belt, you'll discover this. 

Even if I was a Yank, I'd take no offense. Once again, speak open and freely.  

pj

Innocent Bystander posted:

allhifi posted:

Indeed. You guys will be just fine. Political bantering  shall subside and the UK's strength in the global economy shall find its rightful place.

Unfortunately that may be a much lower placing than hitherto, and lower than most people like to think is the UK's 'rightful' place.

allhifi posted:

When the dust settles, I truly believe the nation will be a much better place -for all of the right reasons. 

I hope you are right, but very much fear you are wrong.

"Unfortunately that may be a much lower placing than hitherto (NO -EU may be playing the media/public perception card. For now) and lower than most people like to think is the UK's 'rightful' place." (Rightful in terms of UK's undeniable historic contribution to modern society; higher-learning (academia), long standing alliance with leading nations and the understanding that the nations people are no pushovers -in fact are both proud and vocal. And bright.

pj 

allhifi posted:

Do EU producers have to comply with UK law/regulation to sell in the UK?