Are we sleep-walking out of Europe ?
Posted by: Don Atkinson on 09 February 2016
Media interest seems to be focused on the trivial matter of "in-work benefits" to migrant workers from Europe.
Very little informed discussion of the benefits and consequences of us remaining part of Europe v the benefits and consequences of us leaving.
Or am I just not tuning into the appropriate TV channel or overlooking some "White Paper" that is on sale in WH Smith ?
All the above is dependent on some pro-EU Tory MPs growing a spine and not just talking about how bad “no deal” would be for the country but also voting to amend legislation to ensure that is the case. I’m talking about the likes of Dominic Greave, Nicky Morgan and Anna Soubry who have spoken at length yet won’t support amendments which enshrines what they say should be done or vote against legislation they claim not to support...
Fear not, stout Remainers, the Vampire Squid that is Goldman Sachs has come to your rescue. At last you have a whiter than white hero you can believe in and get behind... Lloyd Blankfein!
Innocent Bystander posted:As I intimated in an earlier post, the EU cannot let UK leave without [significant and visible] detriment to UK.
if UK doesn't want to suffer that detriment, it is simple:don't leave (but instead have strong negotiators arguing agains the creeping move of sovereignty).
I agree with you they won't let us go without inflicting some kind of punishment. However what part of "ever closer union" eludes you? It is a pointless exercise negotiating with these people, as demonstrated when Cameron went with the begging bowl and came back empty handed. They are not going too be deflected from the long term plan.
They are a almost akin to a cult in their zeal for a united states of Europe. People like Verhofstadt, Juncker and Mandleson thinks politics is too important for the little people. They want a post democratic age where the chosen elite will make all these difficult decisions for you.
ltaylor posted:Innocent Bystander posted:As I intimated in an earlier post, the EU cannot let UK leave without [significant and visible] detriment to UK.
if UK doesn't want to suffer that detriment, it is simple:don't leave (but instead have strong negotiators arguing agains the creeping move of sovereignty).
I agree with you they won't let us go without inflicting some kind of punishment. However what part of "ever closer union" eludes you? It is a pointless exercise negotiating with these people, as demonstrated when Cameron went with the begging bowl and came back empty handed. They are not going too be deflected from the long term plan.
They are a almost akin to a cult in their zeal for a united states of Europe. People like Verhofstadt, Juncker and Mandleson thinks politics is too important for the little people. They want a post democratic age where the chosen elite will make all these difficult decisions for you.
And even if that were true, and I'm not saying that it is, or desirable, and I'm not, are you suggesting that the leadership (sic) that we've experienced in the UK over the past year or so is better?
ltaylor posted:I agree with you they won't let us go without inflicting some kind of punishment.
Its NOT punishment. It’s consequences.
However what part of "ever closer union" eludes you? It is a pointless exercise negotiating with these people, as demonstrated when Cameron went with the begging bowl and came back empty handed. They are not going too be deflected from the long term plan.
The part where they agreed that the UK didn’t have to be part of an “ever closer Union”?
As for the rest of the negotiations, well Cameron went in there with demands and a “if we don’t get out way we’re going to cry” attitude. He was pathetic. Especially as the only reason he was negotiating was in a vain attempt to hold his party together and retain power.
They are a almost akin to a cult in their zeal for a united states of Europe. People like Verhofstadt, Juncker and Mandleson thinks politics is too important for the little people. They want a post democratic age where the chosen elite will make all these difficult decisions for you.
Almost as cultish and ideologically motivated as Farage and many in the Conservative Party are against Europe. Their hatered of Europe blinds them to the damage they are causing. They are blinded to the consequences. Europe has never lorded anything over the U.K., the U.K. was a willing partner. The U.K. works better in cooperation with the rest of Europe, unifying aims based on principles that the British helped formulate.
Kevin-W posted:Fear not, stout Remainers, the Vampire Squid that is Goldman Sachs has come to your rescue. At last you have a whiter than white hero you can believe in and get behind... Lloyd Blankfein!
Not since the late General Sir Anthony Cecil Hogmanay Melchett, VC, KCB, DSO have the forces of right and good had a leader whose very bearing and dignity made victory so assured!
Still, he's got a point. He may be an architect of the forces of evil without a single positive motivation in his reptilian frame, but he's got a point.
Kevin-W posted:Fear not, stout Remainers, the Vampire Squid that is Goldman Sachs has come to your rescue. At last you have a whiter than white hero you can believe in and get behind... Lloyd Blankfein!
Of course he wants the UK to stay in the EU. Frankfurt is a small town and boring, compared to London.
Latest summary in my mind is :
Government and most informed commentators, confirm that UK will be significantly poorer as a direct result of Brexit.
In return, we, the common people,....
give up rule from Brussels (tempered by European Parliament and Council of Ministers) and instead
get rule by Boris, Gove, Redwood and Rees-Mogg (who over-rule TM) or if we don't like said people we can choseCorbyn and Diane Abbott instead
No doubt we will be reminded that we all voted for this (all 51% of those who voted, that is)
Don Atkinson posted:No doubt we will be reminded that we all voted for this (all 51% of those who voted, that is)
And Bravo! Don, you have just done so.
A plea from me for something fresh, something insightful.
Best, Chris
Don,
it's very easy to understand really; the Tory Brexit Party is an undemocratic outfit who are persistently ignoring the real will of the people who by real majority want to remain within the EU where we'll all be far better off.
The Tory Brexit Party are using the flawed & farcical trumped up 23rd June election result as kudos for pursuing their own undemocratic agendas. They particularly need and want a very hard brexit because they know the UK people will become poorer as a result, and poorer people are easier to control which is will suit the new UK Tory fascist regime & Tax heaven for the super-rich . This has sadly been proven with the Tory Brexit Party's recent diktat that we are leaving the EU regardless, and not to mention without any vote of democratic approval from the either the EU, the UK Parliament, or the UK people [that being all the people of the UK - not just the 51% who got duped into voting leave in an election that lacked honest credibility].
Debs
I realise that this topic exists within a hi-fi forum, but the record seems to be stuck once again. 
Yep, that's the problem with vinyl...
(Quickly ducks for cover.... 
)
naim_nymph posted:Don,
it's very easy to understand really; the Tory Brexit Party is an undemocratic outfit who are persistently ignoring the real will of the people who by real majority want to remain within the EU where we'll all be far better off.
The Tory Brexit Party are using the flawed & farcical trumped up 23rd June election result as kudos for pursuing their own undemocratic agendas. They particularly need and want a very hard brexit because they know the UK people will become poorer as a result, and poorer people are easier to control which is will suit the new UK Tory fascist regime & Tax heaven for the super-rich . This has sadly been proven with the Tory Brexit Party's recent diktat that we are leaving the EU regardless, and not to mention without any vote of democratic approval from the either the EU, the UK Parliament, or the UK people [that being all the people of the UK - not just the 51% who got duped into voting leave in an election that lacked honest credibility].
Debs
Sorry Debs but much as I regret the decision to leave the EU, I must challenge your assertion about the underlying motivation by those supporting Brexit within the Conservative party which I've highlighted above. While I think they are wrong, I think they genuinely believe that the UK economy will eventually be stronger outside of the EU. And there may well be a bit of 'Little-Englander' in there for some. But I don't think there is a shred of evidence to support your assertion that they want to make people poorer to better control them.
Indeed, making people poorer is more likely to lead to people voting for Corbyn (not in the Conservatives' interest) and civil unrest (not in anyone's interest).
Christopher_M posted:Don Atkinson posted:No doubt we will be reminded that we all voted for this (all 51% of those who voted, that is)
And Bravo! Don, you have just done so.
A plea from me for something fresh, something insightful.
Best, Chris
Erm, it's Brxit, a cock-up of munumental proportions - something fresh is unlikely unless the decision to leave were to be put out put out to a referendum ... oh, already done, and with such clear, accurate and reasoned information [as the campaigners' obvious concern for the country, not themselves, allowed].
Sadly the process of destruction of Britain's economy - to be felt hardest by the least advantaged - seems as inexorable as the inability of the negotiators to negotiate.
MDS posted:...Indeed, making people poorer is more likely to lead to people voting for Corbyn (not in the Conservatives' interest) and civil unrest (not in anyone's interest).
Under the post-Brexit apocalypse the poor will be forced to pay more regressive tax to be mis-spent on longer truncheons for the state fascist police to crack down on the sculls of good moral value civil dissent, and with no NHS to fall back on [will be privatised for only those who can afford to get ripped off.] It's all about making money for a small minority of over paid very greedy rich.
Voting for Comrade Corby isn't the answer either, he's just as pro leave as fuhrer May's gangster outfit, plus Labours election winning outlook is pretty hopeless with Corbyn in charge.
Many young people voted Labour at the last GE believing they are pro-remain, it hugely bolstered Labours support for all the wrong reasons, and meanwhile many Remainers daftly voted Tory believing there would be another fair EU election. It's a mess, but easy to understand the selfish motives of the Tory Fascist Brexit Party.
Debs
Innocent Bystander posted:Christopher_M posted:Don Atkinson posted:No doubt we will be reminded that we all voted for this (all 51% of those who voted, that is)
And Bravo! Don, you have just done so.
A plea from me for something fresh, something insightful.
Best, Chris
Erm, it's Brxit, a cock-up of munumental proportions - something fresh is unlikely unless the decision to leave were to be put out put out to a referendum ... oh, already done, and with such clear, accurate and reasoned information [as the campaigners' obvious concern for the country, not themselves, allowed].
Sadly the process of destruction of Britain's economy - to be felt hardest by the least advantaged - seems as inexorable as the inability of the negotiators to negotiate.
You must think some of us don't know that!
C.
MDS posted:While I think they are wrong, I think they genuinely believe that the UK economy will eventually be stronger outside of the EU. And there may well be a bit of 'Little-Englander' in there for some. But I don't think there is a shred of evidence to support your assertion that they want to make people poorer to better control them.
I don't think it's so much about whether the economy is stronger, but what kind of economy it is. There can be strong economies based on minimum state, minimal regulation etc, and despite what many would have us believe, there can be strong economies based on a stronger state (who has the largest sovereign investment fund in the world? Norway).
I think that there is a cabal within the economic hard right of the brexit crowd (Paterson, JRM etc) which hoped for a degree of shift in the UK economy via brexit, but whose wildest dreams are starting to become actual possibilities. I say cabal when really these things are more fluid and opportunistic than that, but you get the idea.
This is clear IMO from changes in the way the press has been briefed over time. Just as Grant Shapps' apparent attempt to topple May a while back was IMO quite obviously actually a sort of public focus group intended to make the party stronger by forcing a 'put up or shut up' situation, I think that ideas are floated in public discourse to see how they are received. And from brexit, to hard or soft brexit, to some openly advocating at least hard-ish brexit, the latest idea I've seen introduced is Singapore as a model for the post-EU UK economy.
Possibly among others, this idea was floated by Owen Paterson, a figure who is paid £100,000 per year by the same organisation which is currently under investigation for screwing up hundreds of lab tests relating to criminal cases (which is to say, he's someone who profits considerably from outsourcing services once provided by the state). If the idea gains traction, more will speak about it, bringing it closer to becoming a reality. If it doesn't, it will become something which obviously no-one ever claimed, just like no-one ever claimed that leaving the EU would still leave us in the single market. It's all about manipulating the Overton window until you can see the future you want through it.
The people behind moves like this do believe it will lead to a stronger economy. But is it the kind of strong economy we want, or which is in the interests of the public? To say that I don't think so would be a miracle of understatement.
MDS posted:naim_nymph posted:Don,
it's very easy to understand really; the Tory Brexit Party is an undemocratic outfit who are persistently ignoring the real will of the people who by real majority want to remain within the EU where we'll all be far better off.
The Tory Brexit Party are using the flawed & farcical trumped up 23rd June election result as kudos for pursuing their own undemocratic agendas. They particularly need and want a very hard brexit because they know the UK people will become poorer as a result, and poorer people are easier to control which is will suit the new UK Tory fascist regime & Tax heaven for the super-rich . This has sadly been proven with the Tory Brexit Party's recent diktat that we are leaving the EU regardless, and not to mention without any vote of democratic approval from the either the EU, the UK Parliament, or the UK people [that being all the people of the UK - not just the 51% who got duped into voting leave in an election that lacked honest credibility].
Debs
Sorry Debs but much as I regret the decision to leave the EU, I must challenge your assertion about the underlying motivation by those supporting Brexit within the Conservative party which I've highlighted above. While I think they are wrong, I think they genuinely believe that the UK economy will eventually be stronger outside of the EU. And there may well be a bit of 'Little-Englander' in there for some. But I don't think there is a shred of evidence to support your assertion that they want to make people poorer to better control them.
Indeed, making people poorer is more likely to lead to people voting for Corbyn (not in the Conservatives' interest) and civil unrest (not in anyone's interest).
But do they?
John Redwood has been one of the fiercest proponents of Brexit. He also has a nice little earner on the side (some £180,000 per annum) as Chief Global Strategist for Charles Stanley.
Despite his many claims that Britain would be, and will, be better off post Brexit, he has apparently been advising his wealthiest clients to look outside the UK, and potentially to Europe, because of the likely state of the UK economy post Brexit.
I have no doubt that John Redwood, like many of his kind (are there many John Redwoods? I sincerely hope not), will find a way to profit from the chaos that will ensue in the UK both during and post Brexit.
I cannot find words to describe what I think of him.
naim_nymph posted:MDS posted:...Indeed, making people poorer is more likely to lead to people voting for Corbyn (not in the Conservatives' interest) and civil unrest (not in anyone's interest).
Under the post-Brexit apocalypse the poor will be forced to pay more regressive tax to be mis-spent on longer truncheons for the state fascist police to crack down on the sculls of good moral value civil dissent, and with no NHS to fall back on [will be privatised for only those who can afford to get ripped off.] It's all about making money for a small minority of over paid very greedy rich.
Voting for Comrade Corby isn't the answer either, he's just as pro leave as fuhrer May's gangster outfit, plus Labours election winning outlook is pretty hopeless with Corbyn in charge.
Many young people voted Labour at the last GE believing they are pro-remain, it hugely bolstered Labours support for all the wrong reasons, and meanwhile many Remainers daftly voted Tory believing there would be another fair EU election. It's a mess, but easy to understand the selfish motives of the Tory Fascist Brexit Party.
Debs
You clearly feel very strongly about this, Debs, and seem disillusioned with the two main alternatives currently on offer to the UK electorate, alternatives that have shifted further right and left respectively. Unless you believe that the Lib Dems offer the way forward, I'm left wondering who you think might?
M
Hmack posted:MDS posted:naim_nymph posted:Don,
it's very easy to understand really; the Tory Brexit Party is an undemocratic outfit who are persistently ignoring the real will of the people who by real majority want to remain within the EU where we'll all be far better off.
The Tory Brexit Party are using the flawed & farcical trumped up 23rd June election result as kudos for pursuing their own undemocratic agendas. They particularly need and want a very hard brexit because they know the UK people will become poorer as a result, and poorer people are easier to control which is will suit the new UK Tory fascist regime & Tax heaven for the super-rich . This has sadly been proven with the Tory Brexit Party's recent diktat that we are leaving the EU regardless, and not to mention without any vote of democratic approval from the either the EU, the UK Parliament, or the UK people [that being all the people of the UK - not just the 51% who got duped into voting leave in an election that lacked honest credibility].
Debs
Sorry Debs but much as I regret the decision to leave the EU, I must challenge your assertion about the underlying motivation by those supporting Brexit within the Conservative party which I've highlighted above. While I think they are wrong, I think they genuinely believe that the UK economy will eventually be stronger outside of the EU. And there may well be a bit of 'Little-Englander' in there for some. But I don't think there is a shred of evidence to support your assertion that they want to make people poorer to better control them.
Indeed, making people poorer is more likely to lead to people voting for Corbyn (not in the Conservatives' interest) and civil unrest (not in anyone's interest).
But do they?
John Redwood has been one of the fiercest proponents of Brexit. He also has a nice little earner on the side (some £180,000 per annum) as Chief Global Strategist for Charles Stanley.
Despite his many claims that Britain would be, and will, be better off post Brexit, he has apparently been advising his wealthiest clients to look outside the UK, and potentially to Europe, because of the likely state of the UK economy post Brexit.
I have no doubt that John Redwood, like many of his kind (are there many John Redwoods? I sincerely hope not), will find a way to profit from the chaos that will ensue in the UK both during and post Brexit.
I cannot find words to describe what I think of him.
Just to be clear on this, Hmack, I wasn't implying any support for the Brexiteers in the Conservative party, nor defending their integrity. I fully recognise the trait you describe of maximising the opportunities for their own enrichment, even if that means doing things which contradict what they preach publicly. But I do not believe that Redwood and his pals on the right of the Conservative party have some hidden agenda of making the poor poorer so as to keep them under better control. Moreover, if they did want 'better control' a more effective strategy would be adoption of police-state type measures e.g. legalising state snooping into email, social networks, tighter legislation over unions, civic freedoms etc, national ID cards, a less independent judiciary, much tighter regulation of the media and Press. But now I'm straying off topic.
MDS posted:Hmack posted:MDS posted:naim_nymph posted:Don,
it's very easy to understand really; the Tory Brexit Party is an undemocratic outfit who are persistently ignoring the real will of the people who by real majority want to remain within the EU where we'll all be far better off.
The Tory Brexit Party are using the flawed & farcical trumped up 23rd June election result as kudos for pursuing their own undemocratic agendas. They particularly need and want a very hard brexit because they know the UK people will become poorer as a result, and poorer people are easier to control which is will suit the new UK Tory fascist regime & Tax heaven for the super-rich . This has sadly been proven with the Tory Brexit Party's recent diktat that we are leaving the EU regardless, and not to mention without any vote of democratic approval from the either the EU, the UK Parliament, or the UK people [that being all the people of the UK - not just the 51% who got duped into voting leave in an election that lacked honest credibility].
Debs
Sorry Debs but much as I regret the decision to leave the EU, I must challenge your assertion about the underlying motivation by those supporting Brexit within the Conservative party which I've highlighted above. While I think they are wrong, I think they genuinely believe that the UK economy will eventually be stronger outside of the EU. And there may well be a bit of 'Little-Englander' in there for some. But I don't think there is a shred of evidence to support your assertion that they want to make people poorer to better control them.
Indeed, making people poorer is more likely to lead to people voting for Corbyn (not in the Conservatives' interest) and civil unrest (not in anyone's interest).
But do they?
John Redwood has been one of the fiercest proponents of Brexit. He also has a nice little earner on the side (some £180,000 per annum) as Chief Global Strategist for Charles Stanley.
Despite his many claims that Britain would be, and will, be better off post Brexit, he has apparently been advising his wealthiest clients to look outside the UK, and potentially to Europe, because of the likely state of the UK economy post Brexit.
I have no doubt that John Redwood, like many of his kind (are there many John Redwoods? I sincerely hope not), will find a way to profit from the chaos that will ensue in the UK both during and post Brexit.
I cannot find words to describe what I think of him.
Just to be clear on this, Hmack, I wasn't implying any support for the Brexiteers in the Conservative party, nor defending their integrity. I fully recognise the trait you describe of maximising the opportunities for their own enrichment, even if that means doing things which contradict what they preach publicly. But I do not believe that Redwood and his pals on the right of the Conservative party have some hidden agenda of making the poor poorer so as to keep them under better control. Moreover, if they did want 'better control' a more effective strategy would be adoption of police-state type measures e.g. legalising state snooping into email, social networks, tighter legislation over unions, civic freedoms etc, national ID cards, a less independent judiciary, much tighter regulation of the media and Press. But now I'm straying off topic.
You might not be !
Rightly or wrongly, I don't trust Johnson, Gove, Redwood or Rees-Mogg. I don't get the impression they are leading us towards a Brexit with a genuine plan or desire to improve the lives of the Nation. I appreciate they occasionally speak words of economic encouragement, Rees-Mogg more convincingly that the others. I appreciate they emphasise sovereignty. But I don't detect any real signs of conviction.
Me neither, Don. Indeed, rather than be suspicious that they have a hidden agenda, I don't they've got any sort of plan what-so-ever. I think they are motivated by an idealogical anti-EU impulse and a degree of personal opportunism.
I should have added, I actually have degree of sympathy for TM here because I think she is trying to be practical in managing Brexit, and is striving to construct a plan around which her party might unite. But not only are they ideologically divided, the Boris gang seem to know only what they don't want.
Looks like Ireland will be getting a very hard boiled egg for breakfast : (
Yet another huge disadvantage of bonkers Brexit looming big and large....
I agree, Debs. But my sympathy for RoI is limited in the Brexit context. The RoI has for a long time been much more dependent on RoI/UK trade that the UK is. The government there must have known that the consequences of the UK leaving the EU would pose a huge threat to RoI, yet I saw no evidence of any support from the RoI government when Cameron was visiting EU capitals looking for concessions prior to the UK's referendum. And now we see various spokesman from the RoI government hinting that the RoI might veto the negotiated Brexit deal if it doesn't give the RoI what it wants. If the other 26 members states are ok with the Brexit deal, I can't see the RoI holding out. And even if it did, does the RoI government think a hard, non-negotiated UK exit is going to help their case? I think not. Furthermore, hasn't the RoI government spotted which party from the North is propping up Theresa May's government? The RoI would do better to play a constructive role here rather than throwing threats around.