Are we sleep-walking out of Europe ?

Tick! Tock! The clock won't stop... I acknowledge that the preponderance of posters on this board are Remainers and your arguments before the Referendum were very valid but not persuasive enough for the majority of us who decided to vote. And, no thank you, we do not want a second run, but even if we did I have yet to see or hear of a Brexiteer who would change his or her mind. 

Does not matter whether all boats and planes stop on March 19th 2019, or the Irish pretend they don't want to trade or move reasonably freely with their largest and nearest partner. Does not matter what rules are in or out of place on the above date, we are out. 

Now, the job of our so called government and politicians is to Brexit as cleanly as possible. If Juncker and his Cabal do not want to play ball then am afraid we have little option but to ignore them and write a new set of rules that allow the German cars, the French wine and cheese and all the Continental goodies we all know and love to fill our shops and showrooms. The world is a different place from 1974 and we do not need bureaucratic political, self serving structures to get on with our neighbours.

Eloise posted:

MDS posted:

Quite right, Eloise.  The RoI/UK boundary issue is going to require a new solution. We have had the 'free travel area' arrangement with RoI for ages. I believe it predates both countries joining the EU (or EEC as it was then).  Ministers in both countries have said they want that arrangement to continue post-Brexit but it's not easy how this can be reconciled with the Brexiteers' demand to strengthen control of the UK's borders and reduce immigration. In other words, we want to control all foreign arrivals at ports and airports, yet people can travel from the RoI to the UK without a passport........hmmm.   

You're right the UK - RoI free travel area (FTA) does predate the EU / EEC ... however as both the UK and RoI entered the EEC on the same date there has never been tested the desire for a FTA between one nation who was part of the EU with another who wasn't.

The EU has (I believe) stated they support the idea of no border between RoI and NI; however they would require a "hard" border then between NI and Great Britain - which would likely be unacceptable to DUP and Tories.  So yes everyone wants to avoid a border, but the positions are not the same on what kind of solution would be acceptable; don't forget any UK - RoI deal would have to comply with EU requirements and the EU don't want an open border where things can leak though!

As you say the position also doesn't square with "Take Control of the UK's Borders".

And the new big bumper sized Calais jungle will be in Eire, probably Dundalk so not far from the Northern Ireland border which they can easily walk across unchallenged into the UK to claim refugeedom, all 3 million per year post Brexit. That's going to be very interesting, i expect the Spanish and Italians will ship them over free of charge with a cheery smile and wave goodbye : ) 

Resurrection posted:

Tick! Tock! The clock won't stop... I acknowledge that the preponderance of posters on this board are Remainers and your arguments before the Referendum were very valid but not persuasive enough for the majority of us who decided to vote. And, no thank you, we do not want a second run, but even if we did I have yet to see or hear of a Brexiteer who would change his or her mind. 

Does not matter whether all boats and planes stop on March 19th 2019, or the Irish pretend they don't want to trade or move reasonably freely with their largest and nearest partner. Does not matter what rules are in or out of place on the above date, we are out. 

I don't know whether to consider your post rhetoric or not ... but you really are a callous individual if you really don't care about such things.  A "bad" Brexit will destroy the UK economy and could well hasten the break up of the UK.  So please forgive me (though I don't care if you don't) if I find the "glee" in your post distasteful.

As for "Brexiteers who would change their mind": how about the Grimsby fishing industry who are now demanding "special" status because they are worried what life outside the EU will mean for them!  But anyway ... if you are so secure in your thoughts that Brexit is the best thing for the country, what are you worried about in a "second run".

The Irish do want to move freely and trade with the UK.  But its not an "at any cost" desire and requires compromise and discussion with our close neighbours.  And there has to be a border somewhere ... either between RoI and NI or between NI and Great Britain ... unless you enter into agreements such as the customs union.

What do you say to the 100s of individuals working in the travel industry who *may* lose their jobs as a consequence of ripping up all the agreements over flights.

Now, the job of our so called government and politicians is to Brexit as cleanly as possible. If Juncker and his Cabal do not want to play ball then am afraid we have little option but to ignore them and write a new set of rules that allow the German cars, the French wine and cheese and all the Continental goodies we all know and love to fill our shops and showrooms. The world is a different place from 1974 and we do not need bureaucratic political, self serving structures to get on with our neighbours.

You really think anything would be that simple.  For starters the UK would be taken to international courts for breaking WTO rules (if thats what you're going to rely on) if you re-write the rules arbitrarily.  Its also economic suicide to allow German car imports when UK car exports would be subject to heavy duties in the EU; the same for the British cheese industry.  And if you (to use a stupid little example) want free imports of cheeses ... what are you going to do to prevent foreign cheeses badged as Wensledale or Stilton - the restrictions and protections on naming are part of EU regulations.  And if you open up to German cars and French cheese (without a trade agreement in place), you have no ability to restrict Chinese cars and Indian cheese.

And are you going to re-write all the UK standards?  If so then you double the bureaucracy for any company wanting to trade with both UK and EU as they will have two sets of regulations to follow.  If not, then you have given up ALL influence over EU regulation but saying you will follow them - and who will decide if the rules have been followed?

I'm still of the opinion that the net result of (and only sensible plan for) Brexit (well only sensible plan except stopping the whole thing) is going to look something very similar to EEA membership ... a result which means that the UK will have given up all influence over the EU while remaining under its regulation; while also losing much of its most valuable economic asset which is financial services.

But all you can think of it "Yippeeeeee ... we're free of the EU!"

You're right the world is a different place from 1974 ... but not in the ways you think!  The world is no longer made up of Nations who can act with impunity and do their own thing ... everyone is reliant on and everyone interlinked with everyone else.  The UK is rapidly dropping down the table of biggest economies and only with the combined might of the EU can we hold back the tide of China and India. 

Do you know the worst thing about Brexit ... I'm starting to find myself liking and agreeing with the likes of Ken Clarke and Michael Heseltine!

Eloise posted:

Do you know the worst thing about Brexit ... I'm starting to find myself liking and agreeing with the likes of Ken Clarke and Michael Heseltine!

Snap!

Resurrection posted:

"And, no thank you, we do not want a second run",

I'm sure you don't

 but even if we did I have yet to see or hear of a Brexiteer who would change his or her mind.

On the other hand, I have spoken to quite a few (and have anecdotally heard of many more, including a few who have posted on this very thread) who would now change their minds and vote to remain if the opportunity were to arise. Strangely, I have not heard of a single person who voted to remain, but would now switch their votes to the Brexit side.       

"Does not matter whether all boats and planes stop on March 19th 2019, or the Irish pretend they don't want to trade or move reasonably freely with their largest and nearest partner. Does not matter what rules are in or out of place on the above date, we are out".

You obviously know very little about the situation in Ireland and the troubles that preceded the opening up of the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. There must be no physical border that prevents free movement of people between the two states, and anyone who thinks otherwise is a complete and very dangerous idiot.  

Resurrection posted:

Eloise posted:

Resurrection posted:

Not complicated. WTO and off we go!????

How does WTO deal with the Irish border?

How does WTO deal with agreements over flights across the EU?

How does WTO deal with financial services?

How does WTO deal with the EU - Third Nation trade agreements that U.K. wants to keep access to?

And that’s just for starters...

(To say nothing of the question of whether the U.K. is still an independent member of the WTO any more)

See Eloise, you're already messed up in complications that can never, ever be resolved with simple dialogue which is why, in the end, we will probably drop out using WTO or commit economic suicide by trying to appease those that will never be appeased i.e. the EU. Everyone wants a mug and a mug's money which is our current EU role. 

Speaking of economic suicide, presumably you still believe in the extra £350M for the NHS?

So how do we force the EU to give us £230M per week?

(The maximum rate we ever actually paid to the EU was £118M per week, so to get the £350M we really do have to force the EU to pay us £230M per week; even if there's no economic cost to brexit, short term or long term.  Without this we can't achieve the brexit campaign's claims.)

Huge posted:

Resurrection posted:

Eloise posted:

Resurrection posted:

Not complicated. WTO and off we go!????

How does WTO deal with the Irish border?

How does WTO deal with agreements over flights across the EU?

How does WTO deal with financial services?

How does WTO deal with the EU - Third Nation trade agreements that U.K. wants to keep access to?

And that’s just for starters...

(To say nothing of the question of whether the U.K. is still an independent member of the WTO any more)

See Eloise, you're already messed up in complications that can never, ever be resolved with simple dialogue which is why, in the end, we will probably drop out using WTO or commit economic suicide by trying to appease those that will never be appeased i.e. the EU. Everyone wants a mug and a mug's money which is our current EU role. 

Speaking of economic suicide, presumably you still believe in the extra £350M for the NHS?

So how do we force the EU to give us £230M per week?

(The maximum rate we ever actually paid to the EU was £118M per week, so to get the £350M we really do have to force the EU to pay us £230M per week; even if there's no economic cost to brexit, short term or long term.  Without this we can't achieve the brexit campaign's claims.)

Seriously, why do you Remoaners keep treating us like some sort of idiots because someone wrote a number on a bus? I no more believed that number than all the nonsense peddled by Cameron, Obama, Osborne, the Governor of The Bank of England, Ken Clarke, Michael Heseltine, the duplicitous position of Jeremy Corbyn, or any of your other doomsters. Why are you still bringing up this piece of puff when the decision has been made? Have a word with all your favoured Remainers as mentioned above, and ask them while they failed to convince the electorate. 

As for Eloise's questions, these are supposed to be part of the two year exit process. If the parties get enmeshed in negativity then all parties will pay a post Brexit price. You can conjecture until the cows come home, but the decision has been made and the more nonsense I see surrounding this phoney Brexit war the more attractive I find the hard Brexit. This is not me being provocative or being nasty, this is my heartfelt opinion. 

There are two ways to not have a hard border between RoI and NI:

1  Remain in the customs Union and retain free movement of people from EU states into Britain (this would upset the brexiteers).
2  Have a hard border between NI and Great Britain.  (This will upset the Unionists and restart the 'Troubles' when the republicans start pushing for independence again.)
3  Have a hard border between RoI and NI until the republicans get political support from the EU and military support from the USA.  They then rearm, and restart the 'Troubles' with much greater resources, eventually destroying the Union (and much of NI in the process).

Huge posted:

There are two ways to not have a hard border between RoI and NI:

1  Remain in the customs Union and retain free movement of people from EU states into Britain (this would upset the brexiteers).
2  Have a hard border between NI and Great Britain.  (This will upset the Unionists and restart the 'Troubles' when the republicans start pushing for independence again.)
3  Have a hard border between RoI and NI until the republicans get political support from the EU and military support from the USA.  They then rearm, and restart the 'Troubles' with much greater resources, eventually destroying the Union (and much of NI in the process).

As we currently have no hard border between NI and Sothern Ireland if  the IRA or any of their offshoots wanted to move arms across the border and recommence the Troubles they could have done it any time since the Stormont Agreement.

Southern Ireland trades massively more with the U.K. than any EU country. If they decide to shoot themselves in the foot over our Brexit then that's their problem not ours. As for Dublin being a new jumping off point for immigrants,  (Naim_Nymph) I think you will find the geographic challenge of getting to and receiving acceptance from Dublin to setting up their camps just might thwart their ambitions. 

Huge posted:

There are two ways to not have a hard border between RoI and NI:

1  Remain in the customs Union and retain free movement of people from EU states into Britain (this would upset the brexiteers).
2  Have a hard border between NI and Great Britain.  (This will upset the Unionists and restart the 'Troubles' when the republicans start pushing for independence again.)
3  Have a hard border between RoI and NI until the republicans get political support from the EU and military support from the USA.  They then rearm, and restart the 'Troubles' with much greater resources, eventually destroying the Union (and much of NI in the process).

3

But at least your maths is only out by 50%...

Innocent Bystander posted:

Huge posted:

There are two ways to not have a hard border between RoI and NI:

1  Remain in the customs Union and retain free movement of people from EU states into Britain (this would upset the brexiteers).
2  Have a hard border between NI and Great Britain.  (This will upset the Unionists and restart the 'Troubles' when the republicans start pushing for independence again.)
3  Have a hard border between RoI and NI until the republicans get political support from the EU and military support from the USA.  They then rearm, and restart the 'Troubles' with much greater resources, eventually destroying the Union (and much of NI in the process).

3

But at least your maths is only out by 50%...

The 4th way is by far the most easiest way; have another EU referendum vote, but this time it will be fair with no Brexit BS, and allowing 16 & 17 year olds to vote. Now people are far more clued up with all the nasty consequences of leaving it would certainly result in a landslide Remain win.

naim_nymph posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

Huge posted:

There are two ways to not have a hard border between RoI and NI:

1  Remain in the customs Union and retain free movement of people from EU states into Britain (this would upset the brexiteers).
2  Have a hard border between NI and Great Britain.  (This will upset the Unionists and restart the 'Troubles' when the republicans start pushing for independence again.)
3  Have a hard border between RoI and NI until the republicans get political support from the EU and military support from the USA.  They then rearm, and restart the 'Troubles' with much greater resources, eventually destroying the Union (and much of NI in the process).

3

But at least your maths is only out by 50%...

The 4th way is by far the most easiest way; have another EU referendum vote, but this time it will be fair with no Brexit BS, and allowing 16 & 17 year olds to vote. Now people are far more clued up with all the nasty consequences of leaving it would certainly result in a landslide Remain win.

Indeed - and  of course, that is very different from voting join if we were not in, but we are in, and so quite a different matter.

I am not a betting man, but I would happily place a significant sum on betting that would be the outcome.

Innocent Bystander posted:

Huge posted:

There are two ways to not have a hard border between RoI and NI:

1  Remain in the customs Union and retain free movement of people from EU states into Britain (this would upset the brexiteers).
2  Have a hard border between NI and Great Britain.  (This will upset the Unionists and restart the 'Troubles' when the republicans start pushing for independence again.)
3  Have a hard border between RoI and NI until the republicans get political support from the EU and military support from the USA.  They then rearm, and restart the 'Troubles' with much greater resources, eventually destroying the Union (and much of NI in the process).

3

But at least your maths is only out by 50%...

Actually, only Option 1 relates to NOT having a hard border. The other two start with "Have a hard border...."

But this whole BREXIT thing is now exposed for what it is, an incredibly idiotic idea, dreamed up by idiots and voted for by idiots.

naim_nymph posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

Huge posted:

There are two ways to not have a hard border between RoI and NI:

1  Remain in the customs Union and retain free movement of people from EU states into Britain (this would upset the brexiteers).
2  Have a hard border between NI and Great Britain.  (This will upset the Unionists and restart the 'Troubles' when the republicans start pushing for independence again.)
3  Have a hard border between RoI and NI until the republicans get political support from the EU and military support from the USA.  They then rearm, and restart the 'Troubles' with much greater resources, eventually destroying the Union (and much of NI in the process).

3

But at least your maths is only out by 50%...

The 4th way is by far the most easiest way; have another EU referendum vote, but this time it will be fair with no Brexit BS, and allowing 16 & 17 year olds to vote. Now people are far more clued up with all the nasty consequences of leaving it would certainly result in a landslide Remain win.

Possibly not a landslide. But at least it could be a much more informed decision this time around. Now that the public can see the problems this has caused already and will in the future. Maybe they would put some of their prejudices aside and vote with their thinking caps on.

Resurrection posted:

Huge posted:

Resurrection posted:

Eloise posted:

Resurrection posted:

Not complicated. WTO and off we go!????

How does WTO deal with the Irish border?

How does WTO deal with agreements over flights across the EU?

How does WTO deal with financial services?

How does WTO deal with the EU - Third Nation trade agreements that U.K. wants to keep access to?

And that’s just for starters...

(To say nothing of the question of whether the U.K. is still an independent member of the WTO any more)

See Eloise, you're already messed up in complications that can never, ever be resolved with simple dialogue which is why, in the end, we will probably drop out using WTO or commit economic suicide by trying to appease those that will never be appeased i.e. the EU. Everyone wants a mug and a mug's money which is our current EU role. 

Speaking of economic suicide, presumably you still believe in the extra £350M for the NHS?

So how do we force the EU to give us £230M per week?

(The maximum rate we ever actually paid to the EU was £118M per week, so to get the £350M we really do have to force the EU to pay us £230M per week; even if there's no economic cost to brexit, short term or long term.  Without this we can't achieve the brexit campaign's claims.)

Seriously, why do you Remoaners keep treating us like some sort of idiots because someone wrote a number on a bus? I no more believed that number than all the nonsense peddled by Cameron, Obama, Osborne, the Governor of The Bank of England, Ken Clarke, Michael Heseltine, the duplicitous position of Jeremy Corbyn, or any of your other doomsters. Why are you still bringing up this piece of puff when the decision has been made? Have a word with all your favoured Remainers as mentioned above, and ask them while they failed to convince the electorate. 

As for Eloise's questions, these are supposed to be part of the two year exit process. If the parties get enmeshed in negativity then all parties will pay a post Brexit price. You can conjecture until the cows come home, but the decision has been made and the more nonsense I see surrounding this phoney Brexit war the more attractive I find the hard Brexit. This is not me being provocative or being nasty, this is my heartfelt opinion. 

Yet another Brexit at any price, and so what if the country goes to hell in a handbasket knee jerk reaction.

As usual expressed by someone who just can't bring themselves to give respect anyone who holds a different opinion; once more falling back on the trite 'Remoaners' insult - and you say we who think Britain is best placed in the EU treat you like idiots - well just take a good look at yourself first.

Resurrection posted:

Huge posted:

There are two ways to not have a hard border between RoI and NI:

1  Remain in the customs Union and retain free movement of people from EU states into Britain (this would upset the brexiteers).
2  Have a hard border between NI and Great Britain.  (This will upset the Unionists and restart the 'Troubles' when the republicans start pushing for independence again.)
3  Have a hard border between RoI and NI until the republicans get political support from the EU and military support from the USA.  They then rearm, and restart the 'Troubles' with much greater resources, eventually destroying the Union (and much of NI in the process).

As we currently have no hard border between NI and Sothern Ireland if  the IRA or any of their offshoots wanted to move arms across the border and recommence the Troubles they could have done it any time since the Stormont Agreement.

<snip>

Oversimplified and totally missed the point!

Resurrection posted:

Seriously, why do you Remoaners keep treating us like some sort of idiots because someone wrote a number on a bus? I no more believed that number than all the nonsense peddled by Cameron, Obama, Osborne, the Governor of The Bank of England, Ken Clarke, Michael Heseltine, the duplicitous position of Jeremy Corbyn, or any of your other doomsters. Why are you still bringing up this piece of puff when the decision has been made? Have a word with all your favoured Remainers as mentioned above, and ask them while they failed to convince the electorate. 

The "nonsense peddled by Cameron, Obama, Osborne, the Governor of The Bank of England, Ken Clarke, Michael Heseltine" ... you mean the nonsense that following a leave vote the pound would plummet, the UK economy would shrink, that the financial services industry would loose their passporting rights and start to make plans to leave The City and that other industries would also start making plans to leave?  That nonsense ... the nonsense which is starting to happen?

How about "the duplicitous position of Jeremy Corbyn" ... the position where he said that the EU needed to make reforms, but that the UK was better off in it with all the protections it has provided to UK workers and the benefits to the UK economy it has provided which may disappear.  Well read the "Exiting the EU" bill and debates and while the Tories keep stating they have "no intention" of rolling back rights ... they also avoid putting protections in place so they can't roll back rights.

On the other hand ... while you might not have believed the number on the bus, many leave voters DID.  They also believed the lies that were told about how the UK economy wouldn't suffer; that leaving would be easy; that there would be no barriers put up in travel for UK citizens.  They believed the lies about the non-democratic nature of the EU; about how it undermines the countries sovereignty.  They believed the lies about how its the EU which causes the crisis in the NHS and housing and educations ... when in fact all the problems are all the fault of the UK government.  They believed the lies when they were told the UK could have the best parts of the EU (the single market) without the downsides of unity (such as free movement).

As for Eloise's questions, these are supposed to be part of the two year exit process. If the parties get enmeshed in negativity then all parties will pay a post Brexit price.

There is negativity because no one is showing they have thought about the problems.  You acknowledge my list of questions ... but no where have you offered any input (from yourself or from those guiding the UK through these negotiations) in how they might be solved.

The Irish border all anyone will say is "we don't want a hard border". But how ... you have to say how you might achieve such a thing.  At the moment the solution appears to be along the lines of "we're going to install a magic wardrobe - next to the magic money tree - and everyone can pass through the magic wardrobe to ensure that everything that passes from the UK to EU complies will EU regulations and is declared for duty and tax!"  Actually no worse - at least that would be a starting point to negotiate on ... there is no starting point except a wishy washy hope and dream of a frictionless border!

You can conjecture until the cows come home, but the decision has been made and the more nonsense I see surrounding this phoney Brexit war the more attractive I find the hard Brexit. This is not me being provocative or being nasty, this is my heartfelt opinion. 

It might be your heartfelt opinion ... but its also being provocative.

You - like many Brexiteers - appear to expect the EU to roll over and accommodate everything the UK wants without any compromise on the side of the UK.  You appear to have a "the UK is more valuable to the EU than the EU is to the UK" attitude.

You talk about German cars (as an example) ... but lets face it those German cars are bought by the "higher paid" individuals.  Unless the UK is very careful in these negotiations, those individuals are no longer going to be in the UK to want to buy cars from Germany.

I think the big irony in Brexit (and I'm generalising a lot here) is that those who are going to be affected most by Brexit, are those who were convinced to vote "Leave".  Those campaigning to Remain were (again generalising) the higher paid, the skilled, the well educated ... those people have skills which are transferrable and will be welcomed to Paris and Frankfurt, to the industrial heartlands and  all across the EU.

Resurrection:    the so called hard border that was very much in place during the troubles and had no effect on cross border arms movements whatsoever.   It was just main road check points,  the rest of the border was (still is) a hole in a hedge or hop over a dry stone wall.   

My dear, gentle, sensitive Remainers, you can place as many bets on another mythical Referendum and it's possible result, but it is not going to happen this side of Brexit. After that, if there is an appetite for it then your luck might change. However, the inherent corruption within and European wide disdain for the EU is increasing not decreasing except amongst your own chattering class, so your optimistic odds might not be reflected in the betting shops.

Your only worthwhile contribution to the current exercise could be to help us retrieve our borders, minimise immigration, stop May throwing good money after bad at Juncker and his kleptocrats, and relieve ourselves of all European courts' jurisdiction, which, after all, is what we really voted for despite the howls of protestation from the Remain side. If the bien pensant decide to intellectualise continually, inside and outside of Westminster, about a redefinition of Brexit then the harder that Brexit will be, which is of course manna from heaven to myself.

If the moderators could be kind enough to allow my comments through a little quicker than at the moment then I promise I will only tease Remainers and not abuse them personally, despite their enormous, nay Huge provocation.  ????

A journalist, Matthew Norman, writing in the i today used the expression  "..the jihadist fervour of her hard-Brexit suicide bombers, and the excruciating economic results if they are indulged..."  in talking about those in the Conservative party who are making life difficult for the PM. I thought that summed things up quite nicely, and it came to mind again in reading Resurrection's recent posts on this topic.  

MDS posted:

A journalist, Matthew Norman, writing in the i today used the expression  "..the jihadist fervour of her hard-Brexit suicide bombers, and the excruciating economic results if they are indulged..."  in talking about those in the Conservative party who are making life difficult for the PM. I thought that summed things up quite nicely, and it came to mind again in reading Resurrection's recent posts on this topic.  

Ha! Ha! The i today! What a rag!

Honestly, am not being over provocative, just pointing out a few home truths no matter how unappealing you guys may find them. To the winner the spoils, and as you may have gathered my appetite is not for appeasement in any sense. If, and it's a big if, you had accepted the Referendum result then there might have been some magnanimity to share but the blatant rejection of that result merits not one iota of sympathy. Your collective partisan actions have demonstrated a clear intention of maintaining guerilla warfare against Brexit unto the bitter end. As such, my ripostes can be expected to be equally forceful and forthright. 

By the way, I bitterly resent being called jihadist by anyone as it was the complaints by people like myself who were blithely ignored when the jihadists were freely allowed to enter our country via the open borders you Remainers continue to advocate. 

Resurrection - for the avoidance of doubt, I wasn't attempted to call you a Jihadist. Honest.  And, in any event I took the use of the term by Norman to be more about the single-minded and unthinking rush towards economic suicide, rather than the conventional terrorist meaning. 

Resurrection posted:

[A load of misinformed, hateful tripe...]

I was going to respond to your points in turn, but realised there’s just no point trying to debate and reason with some people...

So I give in, the U.K. will be much better outside the EU, there will be money growing off every tree and a unicorn under every Christmas Tree...