Are we sleep-walking out of Europe ?

thebigfredc posted:

We weren't swayed by the financial numbers spewed by politicians at the time of the pole but by our longstanding objections to the EUs undeniable interference of our sovereignty, autonomy and territoriality.

I don't think you can be so naive (sorry) to think that some people weren't swayed by the financial numbers.  Many people (in my opinion but also supported by surveys and polls) were influenced in voting about the state of the NHS, the state of housing, the state of education system and a host of other "domestic" issues.

But the "EU's undeniable interference of our sovereignty, autonomy" is pretty much a myth isn't it - or at least a consequence of a close trading relationship.  For the main the EU rules are there creating a level playing field for all nations under it for trade - harmonising standards, working conditions and a host of other related areas.  If you want to continue to trade with the EU, its going to be very difficult to get away from that "interference" and so leaving the EU is just abdicating ANY influence over those standards - in my opinion by leaving the EU not only are you ultimately not going to grasp back control; you are giving more away.

As for the "EU's undeniable interference of our [...] territoriality" I'm assuming you are meaning the free movement of labour argument.  Well there are several replies to that - first it works both ways: while it might be an unbalanced equation everyone has the right to move elsewhere in Europe to work, study and live.  Second the UK could have done much to mitigate the effects of immigration and (again of course in my opinion) that is where the problems are NOT in immigration itself.

Hello Eloise,

I used the term we in the sense of the people I know, work with etc and although we are not a particularly grand social circle, we did have sufficient integrity to vote leave for our long-standing objection to the EU superstate on principle rather than any grubby politicians promise.

Ray

thebigfredc posted:

Hello Eloise,

I used the term we in the sense of the people I know, work with etc and although we are not a particularly grand social circle, we did have sufficient integrity to vote leave for our long-standing objection to the EU superstateon principle rather than any grubby politicians promise.

Ray

"on principle" and that is the nub of your argument, and those of your social circle. But not ALL of the Leave voters, as some of us here have pointed out.

Quite a few people with whom I work and socialise voted Leave. For a variety of reasons. Most were swayed by immigration promises, NHS promises and the idea that £350m per week would somehow end up in their pockets etc etc and Eloise has highlighted many of these as well. Those who voted "on principle", both then and now confirm that "on principle" also means "at any  cost" and also "f**k the consequences" or words to that effect.

I presume that you and Resurrection also mean "at any  cost" and "any consequence" ?

(i've presumed you would use the more genteel language rather than that of my social circle)

Don Atkinson posted:

thebigfredc posted:

Hello Eloise,

I used the term we in the sense of the people I know, work with etc and although we are not a particularly grand social circle, we did have sufficient integrity to vote leave for our long-standing objection to the EU superstateon principle rather than any grubby politicians promise.

Ray

"on principle" and that is the nub of your argument, and those of your social circle. But not ALL of the Leave voters, as some of us here have pointed out.

Quite a few people with whom I work and socialise voted Leave. For a variety of reasons. Most were swayed by immigration promises, NHS promises and the idea that £350m per week would somehow end up in their pockets etc etc and Eloise has highlighted many of these as well. Those who voted "on principle", both then and now confirm that "on principle" also means "at any  cost" and also "f**k the consequences" or words to that effect.

I presume that you and Resurrection also mean "at any  cost" and "any consequence" ?

(i've presumed you would use the more genteel language rather than that of my social circle)

Don,

My decision to vote Leave was not an epiphany, nor am I a Europhobe, although clearly I am a EUrophobe. I lived and worked in Belgium for five happy years but, thankfully, not for the EU or any other public institution. This year I have had holidays in Bruges and Bayeux and am comfortable conversing in French and can get along linguistically in Italy and Spain with no real hassles. German I find grammatically challenging. My cars are German and I have no antipathy towards any specific European nation.

I have only worked in the private sector which makes me naturally suspicious of bureaucracies and levels of political interference. Before I am accused of having no knowledge or understanding of the public sector, let me just point out that my wife was a midwife for her whole career and only finally gave up, still at the coal face so to speak, when she felt the twelve hour shifts could endanger her ability to practise.  

I am am so sick to death having to define and redefine my rationale for voting Leave and being challenged as to what Leave means that simply stating Sovereignty, Border Control and Judicial Independence just does not seem to cut it for those who do not hold my views. These are primary reasons for voting Leave but far from the complete, comprehensive list and I really will not bore you and myself with any more detail.  

Don,

I don’t pretend to speak for Ressurection or indeed many other of the 17 million or so who voted leave.

Ray

Resurrection posted:

I am am so sick to death having to define and redefine my rationale for voting Leave and being challenged as to what Leave means that simply stating Sovereignty, Border Control and Judicial Independence just does not seem to cut it for those who do not hold my views. These are primary reasons for voting Leave but far from the complete, comprehensive list and I really will not bore you and myself with any more detail.  

First off you don't have to define and redefine your rationale for voting leave here or anywhere ... no one is making you participate in this forum ... its your choice to engage.

Simply stating "Sovereignty, Border Control and Judicial Independence" doesn't cut it for many of "us" because we find those to be purely emotive terms which have very little meaning, or perhaps very different meanings to you compared with others.  It sounds like (some what) irrational rhetoric to use towards a democratic body which the UK has helped to form and mould over the last 40 years.

The UK is still a sovereign state.  It it wasn't sovereign then there would be no way to leave the EU.  Simply by allowing the UK to leave demolishes any argument that the EU undermines a countries sovereignty.  

So what about the UK's sovereignty do you want to change?

We have control over our borders, though as part of that "we" chose to allow other EU citizens the right to come here, live and work - just as you yourself have (come March 2019 had) the right to go and live in the rest of the EU without requiring visa or work permits: something you have stated you took advantage of.  

But what about border control do you want to change?

As for judicial independence ... yes the UK courts have to take into account decisions from the ECJ and take into account laws and regulations that the EU agree collectively.  It is (was) part of collective responsibility and being part of the EU.  I suspect you would also like to abolish European Human Rights legislation too wouldn't you?  Despite the fact that that has nothing to do with the EU (excepting that to be a member of the EU you have to be a member of the Council of Europe which requires you to be a signature of the European Convention on Human Rights).  

So what about judicial independence do you want to change?

(And no, I'm not demanding answers ... I'm trying to hold a debate which appears increasingly difficult)

thebigfredc posted:

I don’t pretend to speak for Ressurection or indeed many other of the 17 million or so who voted leave.

Thats as taken ... but you did kind of avoid Don's question.

For you: is leaving the EU an "at any cost" / "at any consequence" proposition for you ... or is there a point at which the negatives of Brexit (whether its downturn in the economy, the risk of the stability of the UK and/or NI or other factors) outweigh the negatives of being members of the EU?

Certainly for myself I don't see the EU as perfect ... but for me the benefits of membership outweighed the negatives.

thebigfredc posted:

Don,

I don’t pretend to speak for Ressurection or indeed many other of the 17 million or so who voted leave.

Ray

Hi Ray,

I didn’t say you did. I was simply outlining a variety of views.

so, without speaking for anybody other than yourself, are you content to leave at any cost and regardless of any consequence ?

Eloise posted:

Resurrection posted:

I am am so sick to death having to define and redefine my rationale for voting Leave and being challenged as to what Leave means that simply stating Sovereignty, Border Control and Judicial Independence just does not seem to cut it for those who do not hold my views. These are primary reasons for voting Leave but far from the complete, comprehensive list and I really will not bore you and myself with any more detail.  

First off you don't have to define and redefine your rationale for voting leave here or anywhere ... no one is making you participate in this forum ... its your choice to engage.

Simply stating "Sovereignty, Border Control and Judicial Independence" doesn't cut it for many of "us" because we find those to be purely emotive terms which have very little meaning, or perhaps very different meanings to you compared with others.  It sounds like (some what) irrational rhetoric to use towards a democratic body which the UK has helped to form and mould over the last 40 years.

The UK is still a sovereign state.  It it wasn't sovereign then there would be no way to leave the EU.  Simply by allowing the UK to leave demolishes any argument that the EU undermines a countries sovereignty.  

So what about the UK's sovereignty do you want to change?

We have control over our borders, though as part of that "we" chose to allow other EU citizens the right to come here, live and work - just as you yourself have (come March 2019 had) the right to go and live in the rest of the EU without requiring visa or work permits: something you have stated you took advantage of.  

But what about border control do you want to change?

As for judicial independence ... yes the UK courts have to take into account decisions from the ECJ and take into account laws and regulations that the EU agree collectively.  It is (was) part of collective responsibility and being part of the EU.  I suspect you would also like to abolish European Human Rights legislation too wouldn't you?  Despite the fact that that has nothing to do with the EU (excepting that to be a member of the EU you have to be a member of the Council of Europe which requires you to be a signature of the European Convention on Human Rights).  

So what about judicial independence do you want to change?

(And no, I'm not demanding answers ... I'm trying to hold a debate which appears increasingly difficult)

Exactement Eloise! Am sick of all the external institutions you mention above and your perorations. Let's just agree to disagree because I have no intention of grinding through your tedious,  repetitious detail time and time again. Fascinating as you are, I might be forced to indulge myself with a little music, which is partly what this board is about, and other aspects of my life. 

Don Atkinson posted:

thebigfredc posted:

Don,

I don’t pretend to speak for Ressurection or indeed many other of the 17 million or so who voted leave.

Ray

Hi Ray,

I didn’t say you did. I was simply outlining a variety of views.

so, without speaking for anybody other than yourself, are you content to leave at any cost and regardless of any consequence ?

 

LOL - Like a dog with a bone, eh! I love curry, lager and wine but I cannot rationalise any of these to people who despise them. ????

Eloise and Don really should get a room. 

Resurrection posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

thebigfredc posted:

Don,

I don’t pretend to speak for Ressurection or indeed many other of the 17 million or so who voted leave.

Ray

Hi Ray,

I didn’t say you did. I was simply outlining a variety of views.

so, without speaking for anybody other than yourself, are you content to leave at any cost and regardless of any consequence ?

 

LOL - Like a dog with a bone, eh! I love curry, lager and wine but I cannot rationalise any of these to people who despise them. ????

But isn't the basis of Don's question the crux of virtually all the current debate regarding where Britain is going with Brexit?

thebigfredc posted:

Eloise and Don really should get a room. 

Haha, what's next, remoaners smell of wee?

They both asked you a straight forward question which would be easy to answer. Taking it to a playground level isn't really much of a response. I agreed with you a few posts back when you said this shouldn't descend into personal insults.

At least Morrissey is right for once.. saying that Brexit won't really happen.   " politicians don't listen to the people, they only listen to other politicians".

Far be it from me t inflame the situation (not much!), but I have quite a lot of time to "devote" to this and other discussion groups because I am retired. Am assuming everyone else here is in the same boat i.e. the lifeboat from the EUTitanic. ????

naim_nymph posted:

The 4th way is by far the most easiest way; have another EU referendum vote, but this time it will be fair with no Brexit BS, and allowing 16 & 17 year olds to vote. Now people are far more clued up with all the nasty consequences of leaving it would certainly result in a landslide Remain win.

As someone who voted to leave, I have no objection in principle to having another referendum, once the exact nature of what the exit looks like is known.

However, Debs, what if the result were the same (ie, another vote to leave)? Would you accept that with good grace? Or do we have to rerun referenda until the voters give the result you want?

As Don keeps asking the "leave" supporters for something positive which could come out of Brexit ... I will offer one.

The EU Farming Subsidies are not fit for purpose: the result of the method of calculating them mean that (at least in the UK) money often goes to rich land owners for doing nothing (or often doing work which is not environmentally sustaining) while those hard working farmers who are struggling get little.  Leaving the EU gives opportunity to change the system around rewarding "good", environmentally sustaining farming methods while depriving the means for rich land owners to just get richer.

Resurrection posted:

Far be it from me t inflame the situation (not much!), but I have quite a lot of time to "devote" to this and other discussion groups because I am retired. Am assuming everyone else here is in the same boat i.e. the lifeboat from the EUTitanic. ????

Nope !

I am well and truly past the "official" age of retirement, and am now age-barred from any Commercial Air Transport flight crew activity, but I still manage a full time instructing/examining role. Its just that Tuesdays and Wednesdays tend to be my days off.

I don't think the EU is akin to the Titanic (although I appreciate a few of my colleagues do). I have a feeling that the lifeboat you are in is of the open type and will be cold and miserable without food and water in the North Atlantic on your perilous and probably fruitless journey towards the USA. I'm still hoping that the ship doesn't sink, or at least we can get the remaining (pun intended) lifeboats properly equipped for a perilous journey ahead, through as-yet uncharted waters.

May I offer another?

UK government gets to choose (oh Lordy) where and how to spend the £8.5bn (pick any other appropriate/disputable figure) we no longer need to contribute?

s.

Simon C posted:

May I offer another?

UK government gets to choose (oh Lordy) where and how to spend the £8.5bn (pick any other appropriate/disputable figure) we no longer need to contribute?

s.

Fantastic idea Simon.

Just make sure you account for any change in overall income (most forecasters suggest this will reduce by a far greater amount than £8.5bn pa) and the increased cost of imports (the Pound is somewhat less desirable at present and probably for  the foreseable future) etc etc.

You might just find that HMG won't actually have an extra £8.5bn pa to spend.

Simon C posted:

May I offer another?

UK government gets to choose (oh Lordy) where and how to spend the £8.5bn (pick any other appropriate/disputable figure) we no longer need to contribute?

Actually it’s £13bn with around £4.5bn coming back to the U.K. (though as you note the U.K. gov has no direct control over how that is spent).

And you’re correct the UK gov can choose where to spend it (post March 2019)... Thats assuming the £13bn isn’t “lost” out the economy as the argument is that being part of the EU adds more to U.K. tax receipts than it takes out.

Perhaps here is another...

...the world changes fast. Change brings opportunities. Those that can respond quickest are likely to take best advantage of opportunities. Leaner, less bureaucratic systems are generally faster to respond.

s.

Don Atkinson posted:

Resurrection posted:

Far be it from me t inflame the situation (not much!), but I have quite a lot of time to "devote" to this and other discussion groups because I am retired. Am assuming everyone else here is in the same boat i.e. the lifeboat from the EUTitanic. ????

Nope !

I am well and truly past the "official" age of retirement, and am now age-barred from any Commercial Air Transport flight crew activity, but I still manage a full time instructing/examining role. Its just that Tuesdays and Wednesdays tend to be my days off.

I don't think the EU is akin to the Titanic (although I appreciate a few of my colleagues do). I have a feeling that the lifeboat you are in is of the open type and will be cold and miserable without food and water in the North Atlantic on your perilous and probably fruitless journey towards the USA. I'm still hoping that the ship doesn't sink, or at least we can get the remaining (pun intended) lifeboats properly equipped for a perilous journey ahead, through as-yet uncharted waters.

Am pleased that you can still continue to do something constructive in your chosen profession. I had enough stress with systems implementations and corporate political shenanigans for one lifetime but made enough not to have to worry, other than how to pay the grandkids' school fees. Demands by them on my time and money never cease. Fortunately I quite enjoy investing as a hobby without making too many bad calls. 

Simon C posted:

Perhaps here is another...

...the world changes fast. Change brings opportunities. Those that can respond quickest are likely to take best advantage of opportunities. Leaner, less bureaucratic systems are generally faster to respond.

s.

Let's see how our lean, less bureaucratic negotiating team under the razor-sharp-response leader David Davis dominates the next round of Brexit discussions and captures the fast-changing opportunities that present themselves, to our everlasting advantage.

The bus is doing the rounds again...