Are we sleep-walking out of Europe ?
Posted by: Don Atkinson on 09 February 2016
Media interest seems to be focused on the trivial matter of "in-work benefits" to migrant workers from Europe.
Very little informed discussion of the benefits and consequences of us remaining part of Europe v the benefits and consequences of us leaving.
Or am I just not tuning into the appropriate TV channel or overlooking some "White Paper" that is on sale in WH Smith ?
Dave***t posted:Resurrection posted:The attitudes of Junker and Barnier threatening us with 48 hours to agree a Brexit deal is quite breathtaking but unsurprising.It would be both breathtaking and surprising if that was what they'd actually done!
Obviously it isn't what they've done at all, but it would certainly be surprising if they did.
From your favourite newspaper, Dave.
Resurrection posted:TBH I suspect MDS is on the right track above - the current ridiculousness may push things towards a softer deal.
This is quite the oddest and maddest political situation I have ever seen. We're doomed! Doomed I tell ye!!
Echoing, Huge's post, I'm also surprised to find myself in complete agreement with you on this, Resurrection. Who would have thought it - Brexiteers and Remainers agreeing ?! 
Dave***t posted:Resurrection posted:The attitudes of Junker and Barnier threatening us with 48 hours to agree a Brexit deal is quite breathtaking but unsurprising.It would be both breathtaking and surprising if that was what they'd actually done!
Obviously it isn't what they've done at all, but it would certainly be surprising if they did.
The attitudes of Juncker/Barnier and co are totally unsurprising. This is not about trade etc etc - they simply can't let the UK leave the EU without being seen to be punished.
Today's gem: "Martin Schulz, the leader of the German Social Democrats, has called for Europe to be bound by a united constitution by 2025" yet more centralised, undemocratic control, arbitrarily imposed - they'll never learn ...
The sooner we are out the better ... we should just walk, get out and do any negotiations afterwards ...
In my view there's too much weight being attached to the 2-year period specified in Art 50. Of course, it's to be expected that the negotiating parties will cite it so as to seek some leverage over the other party. But in practice I firmly believe that if HMG and the EU decision-makers thought more time was needed to reach a mutually satisfactory negotiated exit then a way would be found for an extension. However I believe the motives of the hard-line Brexiteers in the Conservative party see a different opportunity. I think they are keen to seek difficulties so as to protract negotiations because what they really want it a fractious non-negotiated exit. This scenario is not in the UK's interests nor the rest of the EU so I very much hope that parties will work hard to avoid it but, even though it would heighten divisions within the Conservative party, I think we are approaching the point where these hard-liners need to be told and understand that their wrecking tactics will not work and if necessary more time will be found to make sure they don't work. I'd suggest that events this week over the Irish boundary issue show that a number of leading decision-makers on the EU side e.g. Tusk, are now being to work collaboratively with TM and her team, trying harder to find a way through. We need to see more of this so that the hard-liners know that they are being isolated.
YNWA250505 posted:
"The  sooner we are out the better ... we should just walk, get out and do any negotiations afterwards ..."
I admit I am struggling to understand those who post responses such as the one above. I really can't make up my mind whether they are simply trying to wind some of us up by suggesting the most preposterous and idiotic approach to Brexit and Brexit negotiation they can come up with, or whether they really are foolish (stupid?) enough to believe that such an approach would be to the UK's advantage, or even possible.
One thing I am pretty confident about though, is that they will not get much support for their point of view from the majority of their fellow Brexiteers
Resurrection posted:Dave***t posted:Resurrection posted:The attitudes of Junker and Barnier threatening us with 48 hours to agree a Brexit deal is quite breathtaking but unsurprising.It would be both breathtaking and surprising if that was what they'd actually done!
Obviously it isn't what they've done at all, but it would certainly be surprising if they did.
From your favourite newspaper, Dave.
Oh, haha! I thought it was just something you were regurgitating from Breitbart, but no, Teh Graun to the rescue!
As Adam says, it's quite obviously a poor headline, and the semantic line between a Brexit deal (i.e. a deal which has to do with Brexit) and the Brexit deal (i.e. the overall deal, which the wording of the headline clearly, and wrongly, suggests) stretches credulity of interpretation. But still, but still.
The idea of a favourite newspaper nowadays is a bit like having a favourite needle to poke yourself in the eye with. But I do enjoy their online crossword.
Dave***t posted:Resurrection posted:Dave***t posted:Resurrection posted:The attitudes of Junker and Barnier threatening us with 48 hours to agree a Brexit deal is quite breathtaking but unsurprising.It would be both breathtaking and surprising if that was what they'd actually done!
Obviously it isn't what they've done at all, but it would certainly be surprising if they did.
From your favourite newspaper, Dave.
Oh, haha! I thought it was just something you were regurgitating from Breitbart, but no, Teh Graun to the rescue!
As Adam says, it's quite obviously a poor headline, and the semantic line between a Brexit deal (i.e. a deal which has to do with Brexit) and the Brexit deal (i.e. the overall deal, which the wording of the headline clearly, and wrongly, suggests) stretches credulity of interpretation. But still, but still.
The idea of a favourite newspaper nowadays is a bit like having a favourite needle to poke yourself in the eye with. But I do enjoy their online crossword.
Well Dave, I hope you don't think I read the words below the headline inn The Grauniad - that would have been a bridge too far. I see our great capitulator has capitulated again, but I need time to analyse the depth of her current capitulation. Am sure the electrons on this BB will soon be getting very excited. A la prochaine!
Learn 'negotiation' with Auntie Theresa!
"You need us more than we need you! Tell us what you are prepared to offer us, and we will talk."
"Here are all the things we will need before we can progress any further."
"Your demands are absurd! We are the most important party in this! Go away and rethink!"
"Here are all the things we will need before we can progress any further."
"Your ambitions remain ridiculously high. We are only prepared to offer this."
"Here are all the things we will need before we can progress any further."
"Still unacceptable. However, we are prepared to increase our offer to secure a deal."
"Here are all the things we will need before we can progress any further."
"In the light of your co-operation, while we still cannot acquiesce to all your demands, our offer rises to this."
"Here are all the things we will need before we can progress any further."
"Here are all the things you asked for."
Hurrah!
Brexit campaigner leaders...
"How can we make political capital out of this?"
"We can appear to be the 'People's Champions."
"Good, let's promise money for the NHS - that's always popular, how much."
"OK, if we didn't get the rebate, and got nothing back from the EU it'd be £305M per week."
"Hang on we only actually pay £115M per week."
"Meh!"
"£350M per week it is then."
<The Vote>
"Oh Sh*t, we won, what do we do now?"
"We'll just have to make everyone else look bad by disrupting their plans."
"Excellent, that'll save our careers."
"But that'll damage the country."
"Meh!"
Huge posted:Brexit campaigner leaders...
"How can we make political capital out of this?"
"We can appear to be the 'People's Champions."
"Good, let's promise money for the NHS - that's always popular, how much."
"OK, if we didn't get the rebate, and got nothing back from the EU it'd be £305M per week."
"Hang on we only actually pay £115M per week."
"Meh!"
"£350M per week it is then."
<The Vote>
"Oh Sh*t, we won, what do we do now?"
"We'll just have to make everyone else look bad by disrupting their plans."
"Excellent, that'll save our careers."
"But that'll damage the country."
"Meh!"
Lol - that piece of very old vinyl is stuck on repeat. Start streaming on random, at least you'll get a different tune each time ????
Et tu Brute?
Resurrection posted:<snip>Lol - that piece of very old vinyl is stuck on repeat. Start streaming on random, at least you'll get a different tune each time ????
Oh, you mean using random numbers; like 350,000,000?
Huge posted:Resurrection posted:<snip>Lol - that piece of very old vinyl is stuck on repeat. Start streaming on random, at least you'll get a different tune each time ????
Oh, you mean using random numbers; like 350,000,000?
Tsk! Tsk! Now you know that is not a random number, but let's not fall out over a few billions. That scratched record is sounding appalling, time for a new one; more tuneful, less harsh, much more relaxing.
We have so far yet to travel and so many more opportunities to cross our swords on fresher fields. We both know that we are the foot soldiers of the donkeys pretending to run our country and our opinions so just steel yourself for the attrition yet to come. Just like the Somme but more bloody and more serious.
Resurrection posted:That scratched record is sounding appalling, time for a new one; more tuneful, less harsh, much more relaxing.
Might one even say... (whisper it)... softer? You know, less hard. Less about division and more suggestive of union.
I actually half expect the knives to come out with alarming ferocity. Banks and NF are already at it.
Dave***t posted:Resurrection posted:That scratched record is sounding appalling, time for a new one; more tuneful, less harsh, much more relaxing.
Might one even say... (whisper it)... softer? You know, less hard. Less about division and more suggestive of union.
I actually half expect the knives to come out with alarming ferocity. Banks and NF are already at it.
Dave,
if our brief. But bloody, encounters have taught me something it is this: although we disagree passionately about the same subject, we at least believe in our own positions. Yes, it would be nice if we all agreed violently with one another, but that is to enter an unrealistic bubble world.
Nevertheless, the grotesque disappintment has been he duplicitous, self serving attitude of our political masters. Every move they have made has left a nastier stain on our so called democracy and highlighted their contempt for the little people. Remainer or Leaver we could surely do better than this.
Anyway, let's momentarily enjoy our phone war or is it peace?
Resurrection posted:Huge posted:Resurrection posted:<snip>Lol - that piece of very old vinyl is stuck on repeat. Start streaming on random, at least you'll get a different tune each time ????
Oh, you mean using random numbers; like 350,000,000?
Tsk! Tsk! Now you know that is not a random number, but let's not fall out over a few billions. That scratched record is sounding appalling, time for a new one; more tuneful, less harsh, much more relaxing.
We have so far yet to travel and so many more opportunities to cross our swords on fresher fields. We both know that we are the foot soldiers of the donkeys pretending to run our country and our opinions so just steel yourself for the attrition yet to come. Just like the Somme but more bloody and more serious.
If there is to be a parallel with the Battle of the Somme, then we must also conclude that situation is being made vastly worse both by the instigators of the action and the strategists in charge of pursuing it; and, furthermore that the whole thing is, fundamentally, a bad idea.
That's the logical conclusion of your simile.
Just personally, I think it quite inappropriate to compare Brexit to the senseless death of over a million people.
NHS leaflets or very dishonest [and illegal] Brexit canvassing?
The chap being grilled certainly seems quite dishonest, but I'm not quite sure I understand the context. Care to expand?
Dave***t posted:The chap being grilled certainly seems quite dishonest, but I'm not quite sure I understand the context. Care to expand?
Put 'Tyrie Cummings select committee leave' into your search engine.
Dave***t posted:The chap being grilled certainly seems quite dishonest, but I'm not quite sure I understand the context. Care to expand?
The YouTube clip is fairly self explanatory, the leaflets which told people to 'protect their local hospitals' were purposely made to look like genuine NHS literature and placed in hospitals were patients would assume they were being asked by the hospital to vote Leave.
These leaflets in question were not of the NHS or NHS policy and should not have been placed in NHS hospitals to appear as such.
Yeah, it seems the bloke's an arse and perhaps a scurrilous liar, which speaks poorly of his organisation, and by extension of the whole leave campaign.
But the video is over a year old. Plenty of us already think the whole thing was a shoddy debacle. I can sympathise with continuing flabbergastment, but I thought perhaps there might be a reason why it's specifically relevant now?
I know it's from 2016 but i've only just became aware of this particular Brexiteering shenanigan.
It's seems very little known about.
I wonder what the criteria concerning accuracy of information would be for a Judicial Review to declare the result of a plebiscite to have been invalidated, on the basis that the electorate could not have reached a valid conclusion due to the degree of inaccuracy of a significant proportion of the information available to them.
I would think that threshold has been probably not been exceeded, but it must be a fairly close thing.
Well, if we have to leave, the way the terms of exit are shaping up at least give some encouragement. I know 'nothing's agreed until everything's agree' and the tricky trade negotiations are to come. But indefinite alignment to standards etc of the single market (which we will no longer be able to influence) opens the prospect of the effectively no procedural change in trade flows. Quite a substantial divorce bill but, in time, a net lower contribution I suppose.
I can't imagine that the hard Brexiteers like these latest developments though and it will be interesting to see how long the apparent political 'truce' holds.
MDS posted:Well, if we have to leave, the way the terms of exit are shaping up at least give some encouragement. I know 'nothing's agreed until everything's agree' and the tricky trade negotiations are to come. But indefinite alignment to standards etc of the single market (which we will no longer be able to influence) opens the prospect of the effectively no procedural change in trade flows. Quite a substantial divorce bill but, in time, a net lower contribution I suppose.
I can't imagine that the hard Brexiteers like these latest developments though and it will be interesting to see how long the apparent political 'truce' holds.
Not long! Depending on your sense of humour, I'd recommend you give Rod Liddle's article in today's Sunday Times a read. It's padded with other very amusing stuff but is spot on, from my perspective, on the EU. Enjoy!