Are we sleep-walking out of Europe ?

Huge posted:

Surely it was about Westminster taking back control - and hence entirely consistent with seizing back control from the parliaments and assemblies of the other parts of the United Kingdom.

I disagree ... surely the (campaign) emphasis was about the "people" taking back control.  Devolution is wholly consistent with that the "people" being more in control.

Though I can see your point too...

Eloise posted:

Huge posted:

Surely it was about Westminster taking back control - and hence entirely consistent with seizing back control from the parliaments and assemblies of the other parts of the United Kingdom.

I disagree ... surely the (campaign) emphasis was about the "people" taking back control.  Devolution is wholly consistent with that the "people" being more in control.

Though I can see your point too...

In line with this thread, my reply was actually facetious!    (But just close enough to possibility to throw a spotlight on the inconsistency).

In terms of the 'people' taking control, perhaps what we need is a Secessio Plebis otherwise we still have control by the Westminster Patricii.

Huge posted:

In terms of the 'people' taking control, perhaps what we need is a Secessio Plebis otherwise we still have control by the Westminster Patricii.

But where would we go during the secessio - Europe?

Huge posted:

In line with this thread, my reply was actually facetious!   

Ahh thats why I missed the facetiousness ... it wasn't Westminster "taking back control" ... it was Boris Johnson, et al. who were "taking back control".

Dave***t posted:

Huge posted:

In terms of the 'people' taking control, perhaps what we need is a Secessio Plebis otherwise we still have control by the Westminster Patricii.

But where would we go during the secessio - Europe?

If it's winter time, Southern Europe sounds good!

Eloise posted:

Huge posted:

In line with this thread, my reply was actually facetious!   

Ahh thats why I missed the facetiousness ... it wasn't Westminster "taking back control" ... it was Boris Johnson, et al. who were "taking back control".

Yes, Eloise. It was not about devolution or 'the people'.  I think the fundamental and fatal weakness in the government's position for those supporting Grieve's amendment was the Brexiteers' long held argument that the 'EU' was taking decisions that should be taken by the UK parliament, yet when it came to legislating for that 'repatriation' of power, HMG's Brexit bill was proposing that these powers be exercised by the executive i.e. ministers, using secondary legislation. In other words considerably emasculating Parliament's role.  Unsurprisingly many MPs chose to challenge this.      

 Unsurprisingly many MPs chose to challenge this.      

 

Wrongly of course! ????

MDS posted:

Yes, Eloise. It was not about devolution or 'the people'.  I think the fundamental and fatal weakness in the government's position for those supporting Grieve's amendment was the Brexiteers' long held argument that the 'EU' was taking decisions that should be taken by the UK parliament, yet when it came to legislating for that 'repatriation' of power, HMG's Brexit bill was proposing that these powers be exercised by the executive i.e. ministers, using secondary legislation. In other words considerably emasculating Parliament's role.  Unsurprisingly many MPs chose to challenge this.      

In the seriousness (rather than the facetiousness) completely agree.  And TM shouldn’t be surprised that people are trying to prevent the government bypassing parliament when that’s what the court battle a year ago was about.  

There was an observation I read (think it was a tweet from one of the political correspondents) that the ironic thing is that it’s more likely that Brexit supporters will be the ones who would “take advantage” of the Grieve Ammendment (not it’s official title).  Whether that’s true or not I don’t know ... but the ammendment was about keeping power in parliament rather than transferring it without limit to the government; and who knows who will be Prime Minister come March 2019.

It was curious that the PM seemed to dig her heels in on this amendment. The writing was on the wall that HMG would lose.  The next likely loss will be on HMG's plan to enshrine into the bill the planned exit date. Apart from the politics of this being a sop to the Brexiteers on the government benches, its hard to see the practical benefit of doing this at this stage. I understand that there have already been significant representations made from the City about the practical difficulties that this plan will bring. Another defeat looming here I think.   

I'm also puzzled at TM's response to last night's defeat i.e. saying 'we've won 35 out of 36 votes'.  This isn't like, say, Pep G explaining away City's first defeat of the season after 35 victories, for goodness sake!  

Resurrection posted:

 Unsurprisingly many MPs chose to challenge this.      

 

Wrongly of course! ????

It’s only wrong if you follow the “out at any cost” policy.

What happens if (for a slightly ridiculous example) the EU says “we’ll give you the best trade deal, all your desires including financial pasporting, but to do that you need to stay 6 months longer while we agree it all”?

MDS posted:

I'm also puzzled at TM's response to last night's defeat i.e. saying 'we've won 35 out of 36 votes'.  This isn't like, say, Pep G explaining away City's first defeat of the season after 35 victories, for goodness sake!  

It’s more like the 2007 New England patriots... won all 16 games in the regular season, got through the knockouts only to loose the Super Bowl 19-0.

(No it’s not really like that either!)

It seems to me that our politicians have lost the plot.

They are debating (ok, squabbling) some trivial, but idealistic concept, and instinctively determined to win the debate.

Having won the debate, then and only then will they look at the consequence(s)............and start squabbling yet again !

At least it makes a change from them watching porn 24/7.

thebigfredc posted:

Romi posted:

thebigfredc posted:

More chance of Arsenal winning the Prem this year than a second referendum on the UKs  EU membership.

If the above were the options then the only moral and ethical choice is to choose the latter each time...!

Not if you were an Arsenal fan. I think most of them would would vote with their hearts for the tangible thing of getting their desperate, little  Gooner mitts on some silverware.

Ray

That sounds positively horrendous and offensive to anything that is decent in this world.

So... David Davis’s desire for a “Canada plus plus plus” model and it sounds like the cabinet are pretty supportive of this position.

According to The Guardian... “That would aim to replicate the free trade arrangement between Canada and the EU but add in additional demands, including over the inclusion of services that make up nearly 80% of the British economy.”

Is it just me or are the Government on the wishful thinking, pie in the sky panning again?  Such a position is exactly what the EU have suggested would be unacceptable: a deal which is better than the U.K. currently has, getting all the benefits of EU membership with none of the responsibilities.

Looks like TM and co are going to concede and not seek to put a specific exit date in the Bill, rightly anticipating another defeat in the HoC if they stuck to their original plan.  I hope that critics of TM and Davis don't gloat but instead welcome this as an outbreak of common-sense, and recognise it as a move that is in the interests of the UK rather than any party or Brexiteer/Remainer camp. 

MDS posted:

Looks like TM and co are going to concede and not seek to put a specific exit date in the Bill, rightly anticipating another defeat in the HoC if they stuck to their original plan.  I hope that critics of TM and Davis don't gloat but insteadwelcome this as an outbreak of common-sense, and recognise it as a move that is in the interests of the UK rather than any party or Brexiteer/Remainer camp. 

That's the way I see it, but some of the hard-line brexiteers will goad the opposition and what they see as party mutineers.

I just hope that the opposition and those conservatives with the guts to stand up for common-sense avoid any gloating, or petty political point-scoring. If May and Davis et-al have any common-sense at all (and I know they have) they'll start thinking more carefully about what is best for the UK (given that we are leaving) and how to set about achieving that. Listening to Boris, Gove and the rest of the extremist leavers would be good too - if only to get it straight from the horse's mouth just what NOT to do !

naim_nymph posted:

For me, I am happy to delay my real Xmas celebrations until 29th March 2019 and will be happy to celebrate it with as many well stuffed Remoaners as would care to join the party. 

Jusqu'à ce moment heureux, je veux un joyeux Noėl a tous et a toutes! ????

Resurrection posted:

For me, I am happy to delay my real Xmas celebrations until 29th March 2019 and will be happy to celebrate it with as many well stuffed Remoaners as would care to join the party. 

Jusqu'à ce moment heureux, je veux un joyeux Noėl a tous et a toutes! ????

So for Christmas 2018, you hope our goose will be well and truly cooked (after all, goose is the traditional bird to roast for Christmas, not these American immigrants!).

Salut Bretagne Petit des Anglais!

Huge posted:

Resurrection posted:

For me, I am happy to delay my real Xmas celebrations until 29th March 2019 and will be happy to celebrate it with as many well stuffed Remoaners as would care to join the party. 

Jusqu'à ce moment heureux, je veux un joyeux Noėl a tous et a toutes! ????

So for Christmas 2018, you hope our goose will be well and truly cooked (after all, goose is the traditional bird to roast for Christmas, not these American immigrants!).

Ansolument mom brave! Can’t trust these Jonny foreigners y’know! ????

naim_nymph posted:

I’m confused... didn’t Boris and Co. tell us if we voted Leave Turkey wouldn’t be joining us for Christmas!

Apparently Green has just resigned. I won’t comment on the allegations surrounding him and his conduct but his loss will make TM’s task of getting Brexit successfully through the Tory party a bit more difficult.

Does this mean that David Davis will relinquish his role in Brexit ?

Or is the Gov choosing what it hopes is a good time to let Green go, without too much reaction ?