Are we sleep-walking out of Europe ?

Winky 

Oh but were it so. Sixty is a significant crossover point as you'll find in due time.  You don't fall off the cliff but you can see it and feel it coming.

Clay Bingham posted:

Winky 

Oh but were it so. Sixty is a significant crossover point as you'll find in due time.  You don't fall off the cliff but you can see it and feel it coming.

 

eeekkk...............I'm not quite seventy yet but am spending the morning teaching a young chap who's barely 20 how to do a slow roll and recover from a spin. We are planning our annual summer back-packing trip to the rockies, and a few days hiking in Norway. What's all this falling off cliffs thing about.....?

I don't recall any significant cross-over point at sixty, but perhaps i'm too senile to remember it

I also don't remember voting to join some Super-European State controlled by unelected bureaucrats in Brussels...................................

Don Atkinson posted:

Clay Bingham posted:

Winky 

Oh but were it so. Sixty is a significant crossover point as you'll find in due time.  You don't fall off the cliff but you can see it and feel it coming.

 

eeekkk...............I'm not quite seventy yet but am spending the morning teaching a young chap who's barely 20 how to do a slow roll and recover from a spin. We are planning our annual summer back-packing trip to the rockies, and a few days hiking in Norway. What's all this falling off cliffs thing about.....?

I don't recall any significant cross-over point at sixty, but perhaps i'm too senile to remember it

I also don't remember voting to join some Super-European State controlled by unelected bureaucrats in Brussels...................................

Mmmm

Willy.

1975: coal, steel, shipbuilding industry on the decline, Australia biggest trading partner, unemployment on the rise, 66% of British voters in favor of EEC membership

2016: prospering trade with Europe, London financial centrum of Europe, 17% of property in Spain owned by UK citizens, Great Britain considering to leave the EU because "it simply does not match" 

Re London being the financial centre of Europe ---

but

France and quite a few other countries want to reduce London's role by their own protectionist behaviour.

jfritzen posted:

1975: coal, steel, shipbuilding industry on the decline, Australia biggest trading partner, unemployment on the rise, 66% of British voters in favor of EEC membership

2016: prospering trade with Europe, London financial centrum of Europe, 17% of property in Spain owned by UK citizens, Great Britain considering to leave the EU because "it simply does not match" 

Oh, if only it was that simple..........................

...............perhaps in other countries that's how it is and that's why people presume we think much the same way, but....................

................people I have met here have much more diverse views and a broader, less self-centred outlook .

jfritzen posted:

17% of property 

Correction: "17% of foreign property" makes more sense

I find it so irresponsible that the government are asking the citizens of UK to vote whether UK should stay in the membership of EEC when no one official has outlined a intelligent comprehensive argument in detail as to pros and cons of staying in or leaving the EEC.    

I am sure that the average voter will be able to work it out for her or himself!

As there is no certain authority who can predict the future giving to much credence to experts, pundits, and politicians on the subject may be rather unreliable, as they are not biblical prophets! 

Who knows quite how Germany react? Will they put up the costs of their excellent cars? I doubt it! They will sell fewer of them in the UK if they do. 

Who knows if the French will want to avoid selling their wonderful wines in the UK? It seems unlikely to me. 

And I bet that the Southern Europeans will continue to sell Olive oil in the UK. 

Will they continue to buy the things we make well in the UK? I rather suspect that in the interest of reciprocal trade that they will. 

It will be a pragmatic policy. 

ATB from George

Hungryhalibut posted:

I certainly don't class myself as a wrinkly. And I remember David Owen leaving Labour for the SDP. An unprincipled moron then and doubtless little changed today. Embrace Europe or shrivel into an inconsequential nothing, with bad food, bad dress sense, bad climate and no industry because business has decamped across the Channel. Owen, Gove, Farage, Johnson, they are all ****wits, as our Bridge would have said. Viva Europa!

It's an opinion I suppose

Romi posted:

I find it so irresponsible that the government are asking the citizens of UK to vote whether UK should stay in the membership of EEC when no one official has outlined a intelligent comprehensive argument in detail as to pros and cons of staying in or leaving the EEC.    

It is irresponsible, but predictable. When it comes to votes, emotion rules. Don't let facts interfere with the fear of being associated with "people not like us".

Romi posted:

I find it so irresponsible that the government are asking the citizens of UK to vote whether UK should stay in the membership of EEC when no one official has outlined a intelligent comprehensive argument in detail as to pros and cons of staying in or leaving the EEC.    

I agree. The issue is of tremendous importance and will affect the lives of people in the UK forever. or at least for a hundred years or so.

The best I anticipate we can hope for is that people take note of the  issues raised by politicians and so called experts of both persuasions and on the basis of their associated prognosis try to make a judgement of the long term prospects of the UK and the EU, both with the UK outside the EU and also with the UK remaining inside the EU.

of course if your favorite politician, whether he be called Boris, Nigel, Dave, Jeremy or Nicola (for example) expresses an overall point of view, it might be difficult for some people to form their own opinion.

George Fredrik Fiske posted:

I am sure that the average voter will be able to work it out for her or himself! I'm not !

As there is no certain authority who can predict the future giving to much credence to experts, pundits, and politicians on the subject may be rather unreliable, as they are not biblical prophets! 

Who knows quite how Germany react? Will they put up the costs of their excellent cars? I doubt it! They will sell fewer of them in the UK if they do. 

Who knows if the French will want to avoid selling their wonderful wines in the UK? It seems unlikely to me. 

And I bet that the Southern Europeans will continue to sell Olive oil in the UK. 

Will they continue to buy the things we make well in the UK? I rather suspect that in the interest of reciprocal trade that they will. 

It will be a pragmatic policy. 

ATB from George

 

The issues at stake are far more reaching that simply trade deals.

Absolutely, but we have a month or two to discuss them. Defence, Security Services are but two of the more important.

Best wishes from George

The UK is tonight deciding which song shall represent us in the Eurovision song contest later this year.

I rather suspect that many people in the UK will decide how they will vote in the EU referendum on the basis of who (if anybody) votes for us in the Eurovision song contest.

Stupid I know, but........................

We've had 40 years to discuss it but its the first time in 40 years we've had a democratic vote on it which sums the EU up.

Rattlesnaic posted:

We've had 40 years to discuss it but its the first time in 40 years we've had a democratic vote on it which sums the EU up.

Mmmmm..................

We have had European Elections for MEPs but I have always thought of the candidates as second rate politicians who would be hard pushed to be elected to our County Councils.

Even the politicians we have put up as Commissioners have seemed second rate.

Don Atkinson posted:

Mmmmm..................

We have had European Elections for MEPs but I have always thought of the candidates as second rate politicians who would be hard pushed to be elected to our County Councils.

Even the politicians we have put up as Commissioners have seemed second rate.

An interesting point, Don.  I think is an area in which the UK seems to be different to other Member States.  Others seem to think that being an EU Commissioner is a stepping stone to greater things and consequently have nominated some of their best politicians. In contrast we in the UK seem to regard filling of our EU Commissioner roles as something of  a consolation prize for political leaders who haven't really cut the mustard e.g. Kinnock. But this isn't something we can blame the EU for or indeed the electorate since those Commissioners are political appointments made by the government of the day.

MDS posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

Mmmmm..................

We have had European Elections for MEPs but I have always thought of the candidates as second rate politicians who would be hard pushed to be elected to our County Councils.

Even the politicians we have put up as Commissioners have seemed second rate.

An interesting point, Don.  I think is an area in which the UK seems to be different to other Member States.  Others seem to think that being an EU Commissioner is a stepping stone to greater things and consequently have nominated some of their best politicians. In contrast we in the UK seem to regard filling of our EU Commissioner roles as something of  a consolation prize for political leaders who haven't really cut the mustard e.g. Kinnock. But this isn't something we can blame the EU for or indeed the electorate since those Commissioners are political appointments made by the government of the day.

Yes, I agree.

I think what I was trying to say, is that in general, both the Electorate and the Political Parties treat the EU as some sort of non-critical option. I don't think we are as committed to the EU as others, nor do I think we are as dependent on the EU.

That is not to say we would be better off outside the EU, and we might be even better off than we currently are, if we stay within the EU and help to drive sensible change.

Don Atkinson posted:

 

That is not to say we would be better off outside the EU, and we might be even better off than we currently are, if we stay within the EU and help to drive sensible change.

But who is going to decide what is sensible, a left wing government would obviously have a different idea of “sensible change” to a right wing or centre government. Every time the UK government is changed, will it attempt to change the EU, to what it deems to be sensible. 

Perhaps national governments (political parties) aren’t the best people to decide how the EU is run.

George Fredrik Fiske posted:

Absolutely, but we have a month or two to discuss them. Defence, Security Services are but two of the more important.

Best wishes from George

In these crucial sectors it will be business as usual, just as it would have been if we had never joined the EEC in the first place. 

ATB from George

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35681147

The rest Europe will be eternally grateful if an exit keeps the stag and hen's parties out. The ritual drunkenness was perhaps the aspect of living in the UK that I liked the least. That the city centres are effectively taken over by bands of drunken louts and loutettes every Friday and Saturday night, making them no-go areas for everyone else is a disgrace.

In the context this is a somewhat unrelated historical documentary about Vichy France.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?...list=WL&index=84

I think what shows is that propaganda can be a very powerful tool.

Best wishes from George

George Fredrik Fiske posted:

George Fredrik Fiske posted:

Absolutely, but we have a month or two to discuss them. Defence, Security Services are but two of the more important.

Best wishes from George

In these crucial sectors it will be business as usual, just as it would have been if we had never joined the EEC in the first place. 

ATB from George

Dear George,

I wish I was as confident as you are about this EEC business.  I want to know what would be effect on finance and trade if we left the EEC?  All people talk about is immigration.  I think it was Nigel Farage who said that there is nothing to fear, we leave the UK and our trading partnerships will be with the Commonwealth as it was before we joined the EEC; I was flabbergasted, is that it we simply resume 50's style economics like nothing has changed? That is frightening coming from a politician.  But then I do not know what the EEC brings to trade.  On Question Time all politicians are more interested in scoring points against each other.  I wish an intelligent neutral Alien would land on this earth, gather information about EEC and report in strictly a neutral fashion the pros and cons of leaving the EEC in regard to Economy, Defence, Security Services, dealing with the increase of immigration and all other matters which affect our daily lives.  I only know one thing in the great scheme of things and that is history tends to repeat itself.    

Dear Romi,

No extra-tersetrials are going to help you in this.

If the 27 other EU states object to the UK leaving then as Lord Lawson said, “We simply walk away, and that is that.” 

You see the truth is that each of us 28 member states are civilised countries that by now have no business interfering in the internal affairs of our friends. We can easily make a decent trade area. We can make a decent defence system - it already exists- called Nato. The UK has no business having our aid to friends controlled by Brussels. We can make bi-lateral arrangements with Poland and Hungary - for two examples - without reference to what other nations want to do in Europe.

In the UK no doubt that we can arrive at mutually beneficial arrangements for the movement of workers and other aspects without being tied to an inflexible system tied to Brussels. 

It is time to be fair not only to the UK citizen, but our friends in Europe, who possibly will see that the UK is both right to become independent of Brussels and will follow our example to their own benefit as well.

The future is bright, and the future is brighter outside the EU.

ATB from George