Are we sleep-walking out of Europe ?

thebigfredc posted:

Mrs Thatcher believed in free trade and the free market. These were the reasons she signed us up to the European Single Act. She did not like or agree with the institutions of the EEC and their interference in our sovereignty

.......but on balance, she knew where our collective best interests lay and negotiated a reasonable contribution to cost of the organisation.

Don Atkinson posted:

.......but on balance, she knew where our collective best interests lay and negotiated a reasonable contribution to cost of the organisation.

Was not her objection to the cost / level of UK contribution more to do with her anti “state” policies and she didn’t see why having run down the U.K. state system “she” should have to be paying so much to the European state.  Much of what the Leave campaigners promised - continued farm subsidies, even extra money for the NHS would have been an anathema to her?

But yes she was also a pragmatist who knew where the UKs best interests lay.  I’ve always said that while I may disagree with her policies, at least Mrs Thatcher did what she felt was best for the U.K. collectively, rather than pandering to vote winning policies.

Eloise posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

.......but on balance, she knew where our collective best interests lay and negotiated a reasonable contribution to cost of the organisation.

But yes she was also a pragmatist who knew where the UKs best interests lay.  I’ve always said that while I may disagree with her policies, at least Mrs Thatcher did what she felt was best for the U.K. collectively, rather than pandering to vote winning policies.

I'd agree with that, Eloise, though I'm not so sure about the "UK collectively" bit. She showed no real interest in solving the 'Troubles' in NI, it was Major who should be credited with initiating that, and she imposed the Community Charge (Poll Tax) on Scotland first.

MDS posted:

Eloise posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

.......but on balance, she knew where our collective best interests lay and negotiated a reasonable contribution to cost of the organisation.

But yes she was also a pragmatist who knew where the UKs best interests lay.  I’ve always said that while I may disagree with her policies, at least Mrs Thatcher did what she felt was best for the U.K. collectively, rather than pandering to vote winning policies.

I'd agree with that, Eloise, though I'm not so sure about the "UK collectively" bit. She showed no real interest in solving the 'Troubles' in NI, it was Major who should be credited with initiating that, and she imposed the Community Charge (Poll Tax) on Scotland first.

Not every politician is perfect............

Eloise posted:

The other “victory” in the Passport colour debate... it’s quite likely they will be made in France or Germany...

Thanks Eloise for mentioning this , I also read about it in some newspaper that Mrs D picked up "free" in Waitrose.

On leaving the EU we are going to revert to the Blue and Gold  coloured passport.

ISTM the Gov announce this just before Xmas as if it’s some kind of Xmas “Gift” to the Brexiteers and some kind of Consolation Gift to the Remainers.

It’s pathetic. Is this what it all boils down to ? No, I don’t just mean the passport itself, but the triviality that this activity conveys. We now have MPs squabbling over where it shall be made. Should we abide by EU Rules and hope De-La-Rue win the bid and make them in the UK ? Will it cost an extra £500m to change.

For f**k’s sake, there are slightly more issues at stake than the colour of a bleeding passport !

As you rightly say....some "victory" !!

Don, you missed the point:  This is EXACTLY the sort of thing that brexit is about.

naim_nymph posted:

Actually that cartoon is quite misleading, it is the EUnicorn that has been slain, and quite rightly so! 

Merry BreXmas! ????

Huge posted:

Don, you missed the point:  This is EXACTLY the sort of thing that brexit is about.

Doh !

Don Atkinson posted:

Huge posted:

Don, you missed the point:  This is EXACTLY the sort of thing that brexit is about.

Doh !

Typical brexit parochial misinformation. The EUnicorn hasn't been slain, it's alive and well and living in Europe!  You've just got to look beyond your own borders!

Remain happy! 

Huge posted:

Typical brexit parochial misinformation. The EUnicorn hasn't been slain, it's alive and well and living in Europe!  You've just got to look beyond your own borders!

Remain happy! 

Ah Bless! ????

Resurrection posted:

naim_nymph posted:

Actually that cartoon is quite misleading, it is the EUnicorn that has been slain, and quite rightly so! 

Merry BreXmas! ????

It you look closely you'll see a grinning Blair unicorn on the EU 'red' passport, and  a dead Corbyn unicorn on the 'blue' with a true blue Tory May lion on the New Blue Tory-Facist Little-Britain passport.

naim_nymph posted:

Resurrection posted:

naim_nymph posted:

Actually that cartoon is quite misleading, it is the EUnicorn that has been slain, and quite rightly so! 

Merry BreXmas! ????

It you look closely you'll see a grinning Blair unicorn on the EU 'red' passport, and  a dead Corbyn unicorn on the 'blue' with a true blue Tory May lion on the New Blue Tory-Facist Little-Britain passport.

Now, Now, Naim_Nymph! (Did you like the alliteration?). If I use terms like "LIberal, Left Fascists", it does not get published. In this time of forgiveness to all men (I know, not very inclusive), am afraid your bitterness still shines through. Have a rest from your Socialist soapbox and enjoy a nice mince pie. ????

Quite right, Resurrection. Tis the season of goodwill.

And, of course, we might not be able to afford 'Christmas' in future years, so we better enjoy this one while we can! 

Chlorinated turkey, anyone?  

Resurrection posted:

Huge posted:

Typical brexit parochial misinformation. The EUnicorn hasn't been slain, it's alive and well and living in Europe!  You've just got to look beyond your own borders!

Remain happy! 

Ah Bless! ????

Couldn't resist a demeaning comment, and couldn't think of anything better eh!

Come on where's your creativity?

MDS posted:

Quite right, Resurrection. Tis the season of goodwill.

 

And, of course, we might not be able to afford 'Christmas' in future years, so we better enjoy this one while we can! 

Chlorinated turkey, anyone?  

Chlorine to kill the turkey?  Not very efficient, Zyklon-B or at least Sarin; but really VX to do the job properly! 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42493735

Heseltine guilty of thought crime.  Extremist nutter vehic respected think-tank calls for him to be apprehended and subjected to re-education and attitude realignment.

Agreeing with what is quite possibly now a majority of the populace WIRD NICHT TOLERIER is not sufficiently supportive of his party's stance.

So nice to see that free speech and imaginative thinking should be punishab is so encouraged and that fears about a current of authoritarian bigotry running through dominant forces in the government are entirely justifi entirely unfounded.

I rather fear that our future will incorporate BOTH brexit and Corbyn.

Don Atkinson posted:

I rather fear that our future will incorporate BOTH brexit and Corbyn.

You don't think you might have rushed it Don?!  :-)

Best, C.

Christopher_M posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

I rather fear that our future will incorporate BOTH brexit and Corbyn.

You don't think you might have rushed it Don?!  :-)

Best, C.

Possibly...........but with Boris, Gove, JRM and Redwood in charge, even Jeremy and Diane are beginning to look.................. 

Basically, Heseltine is making a very valid point IMHO, not that I like the prospect, but he does have a point !

Anyway, it'll soon be a new Year, with new delights and opportunities !

Cheers, Don

Heseltine is a Europhiliac fool! He stormed out of Thatcher's Government on the pretext of having principles over the Westland affair, when in fact he rather hoped that it would so destabilise Thatcher that she'd be out and he'd be in. Didn't really work out like that and, rather like Heath, he has sulked for over thirty years. He was also wrong about us joining the Euro, but even in the last few months has expressed a wish for us to join that malign currency, but to go as far as saying Corbyn might be a better solution, consider this: Heseltine is worth £300 million and acquires estates and arboretums like you or I might consider buying a McDonald's a luxury.

If Corbyn and especially McDonnell got anywhere near power Heseltine and his fortunes would be toast. Not only does he seem to be extremely bitter and twisted about Brexit, but he has to be suicidally stupid to wish Corbyn on the people of the UK. Heseltine, a man of his time, which was forty years ago. 

So anyone who votes in line with their moral principles rather than for their own personal financial gain is "stupid"?

i guess that's one way, albeit a rather narrow and shallow way (in my opinion of course) of approaching elections. I.'m all right Jack, and who cares about the rest!

Hmack posted:

So anyone who votes in line with their moral principles rather than for their own personal financial gain is "stupid"?

i guess that's one way, albeit a rather narrow and shallow way (in my opinion of course) of approaching elections. I.'m all right Jack, and who cares about the rest!

Am not sure who your comment is aimed at? If it is me then I would say to you that I have not made any point about people voting with their consciences.

If you are referring to Heseltine, all I would say is that the man oozes self interest rather than any morals  and if you use him to reinforce an anti Brexit argument then you might as well also use 'Sir' Nick Clegg for a credible, unbiased EU opinion.

I think the point Heseltine is trying to make is describing (for him) the lesser of two evils: i.e. the choice between a Corbyn government and a botched hard Brexit.  I've taken him to be saying that, bad though a Corbyn government would be for the UK, the damage it would inflict would be recoverable within a reasonable period whereas the damage done to the UK by a hard Brexit would be greater, much longer felt and much harder to correct.  I'm no fan of Heseltine and never have been but I find myself agreeing with his logic here.