Are we sleep-walking out of Europe ?

MDS posted:

some unusually tough words from Adonis, though I think he's long had a reputation for having a bit of an ego.

Can you be called Adonis without having an ego?

Eloise posted:

MDS posted:

some unusually tough words from Adonis, though I think he's long had a reputation for having a bit of an ego.

Can you be called Adonis without having an ego?

Dave***t posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

Resurrection, I think we are all agreed that a Labour Government lead by Corbyn and the others mentioned above, would be a disaster.

No, Don, we all most emphatically are not.  In fact the cynic in me suspects that subtler operators within the govt are happy for Heseltine to be a kind of useful idiot in that sense, because while attention is concentrated on the Brexit part of what he said, the 'Corbyn would be a disaster' part slides smoothly through as if it were an acknowledged fact.  This is a known campaign/psychological tactic.

But heading into party waters seems likely to derail a worthwhile thread.  That's why I haven't replied directly to Resurrection's economic opinion etc.  Having pointed out that we can't take your assertion as read, I hope we can drop it and stay closer to topic.

In which spirit, Adonis - I was quite surprised at the tone of his statement.  At how forcefully it was worded.  This was after all coming from a man who is no hard leftist, having been aligned quite closely with Gove, no less, when he was minister for education, and instrumental in introducing tuition fees.  

If he's right about May's personal position that's also a surprise, as I'd thought of her as largely trapped - not particularly ideologically driven herself, but trying to mediate between emphatically opposed forces around the table.  If she's actually become a hard brexiteer, then I fear all remainers and even the softer or more neutral leavers have cause to worry deeply.

The schoolyard response from the govt (he jumped before he was pushed) was hardly a reassuring display of maturity and seriousness.

OOps. I didn't mean everybody in the whole wide world. I just seemed to me that those taking part in that little bit of the side discussion triggered by Heseltine all seemed to agree. As others have pointed out, younger voters might well vote Labour at the next general Election. I think that's a serious possibility and I despair. Obviously many, many others (including yourself) think it's a serious possibility and will rejoice.

Anyway, I conssider  Heselitine's comment was a useful benchmark for the potential scale of the Brexit disaster !

Resurrection posted:

Eloise posted:

Resurrection posted:

Last unforgivable act for me, although I made a few bob out of it, was the acquisition of ARM, the chip designer, by Sunbright the dodgy Far Eastern company SoftBank.  As soon as an AIM listed company flourishes some foreign company can easily jump in and acquire it. Only in the U.K...

Well given that ARM only existed due to it being spun out of an Italian owned company (Acorn were owned by Olivetti at the point they created the ARM RISC processor) and marginally over 50% owned by Americans (Apple owned nearly 50 equal to Acorn and VLSI owned the remainder)...

Your rose tinted vision of U.K. companies is just that... rose tinted.

Truly Eloise, thou art a piece of work. Acorn may have started life by the original Olivetti company but was wholly British staffed, based and mostly funded. Apple did gave a large holding in it until about 2000 but reduced its holding to about 15%. ARM's IPO was in 1998, by which time it was truly British, and until its acquisition by Soft Bank was a FTSE 100 stalwart. It is, of course, still based in Cambridge and if you look back its history it has had and still has a very strong British management and research team.

 

And the point of your muddled post was?

“A piece of work”... what for correcting your ill informed rant?  Which is still incorrect... Acorn didn’t “start life” as an Olivetti company - it grew out of research groups as Cambridge University in competition with Sinclair and others.  However failure to expand outside this septred isle saw itin financial difficulty and required overseas saviours.

My point: that while yes arm Holdings was a U.K. company ... it was only in existence in the first place due to the global economy and injections from European and American firms.  

It’s muddled thinking that Brexit is going to improve the situation of companies such as arm Holdings.  And that’s nothing to mention the success of British Car Manufacturing... also a global economy success story.

YAWN,

thebigfredc posted:

YAWN,

Is that like sticking your fingers in your ears and going “la la la” when you don’t like the truth of what you’re being told?

Eloise posted:

thebigfredc posted:

YAWN,

Is that like sticking your fingers in your ears and going “la la la” when you don’t like the truth of what you’re being told?

Either that or sticking two fingers in the air, and not like Churchill.

Either way, not nice !

Don Atkinson posted:

Eloise posted:

thebigfredc posted:

YAWN,

Is that like sticking your fingers in your ears and going “la la la” when you don’t like the truth of what you’re being told?

Either that or sticking two fingers in the air, and not like Churchill.

Either way, not nice !

I think in this instance 'YAWN' is an acronym for;  Your Argument Wins Nicely  

Debs

Alternatively, it could stand for Your Always Wrong Naim-nymph .

thebigfredc posted:

Alternatively, it could stand for Your Always Wrong Naim-nymph .

Naim-nymph's is better. Especially since the original insulting YAWN was directed at Eloise !

but a slight correction to yours anyway, before Adam,  or HH strike....the "Your" should be "You're"

Don Atkinson posted:

thebigfredc posted:

Alternatively, it could stand for Your Always Wrong Naim-nymph .

Naim-nymph's is better. Especially since the original insulting YAWN was directed at Eloise !

but a slight correction to yours anyway, before Adam,  or HH strike....the "Your" should be "You're"

I am humbled and disappointed in that I thought it was aimed at myself so had gone off in a huff! ????

Or ...Your (spelt correctly this time) Arguments Worry Nobody. 

You are wrongly nonchalant.

I always thought YAWN stood for Yikes! Are We Nuts? - especially when considering BREXIT to be a good idea...

Innocent Bystander posted:

I always thought YAWN stood for Yikes! Are We Nuts? - especially when considering BREXIT to be a good idea...

....it just gets better....

Just heard on the wireless that UK manufacturing is up by 3.9% over the year. One of the benefits of having a weak pound I suppose.

Last week I am sure I heard that the FTSE was at an all time high. I am no expert but I guess the clever people in the City aren't too perplexed by the prospect of our impending Brexit.

The Footsie companies are international, so are not affected so much by Brexit. The bankers are moving out to the EU.

I suspect the real effect will come when we actually leave the EU rather than when people talk about it.

How many of the ftse 100 companies are truly uk companies.

Increase in manufacturing is probably due to the UK's largest export market doing so well at the moment.

Not to mention that the financial markets were doing really well in 2007 and the start of 2008...

German industrial output up 3.4% month-on-month without currency devaluation distortion, France, Italy and Greece stock markets up by more than the FTSE, Eurozone unemployment rate at lowest for years....

None of these figures paint a particularly comprehensible picture on their own.  The UK figures aren't bad news, but they don't say much that's useful for actually understanding what's going on.  Certainly not for understanding the current and future impacts of Brexit.

If the UK economy was striding ahead of other comparable economies, and wasn't subject to a probable sterling devaluation bounce (which is to at least some extent a seesaw, in that trade might do well but food prices are destabilised, etc), then it'd tell us something.  But that is not currently the case.

And that a weak pound pushes up the FTSE100 as so many of these companies have large non-UK holdings and the weakening of the pound means that these holdings become worth relatively more when quoted in GBP.  Their actual (international relative) value can still be falling even if the numeric valuation in GBP is increasing.

thebigfredc posted:

Just heard on the wireless that UK manufacturing is up by 3.9% over the year. One of the benefits of having a weak pound I suppose.

Last week I am sure I heard that the FTSE was at an all time high. I am no expert but I guess the clever people in the City aren't too perplexed by the prospect of our impending Brexit.

 

 

Hi fred,

I think you might have jumped in a bit too soon with your prognosis, as the subsequent posters illustrated.

OTOH, I doubt if you are alone.

There are all the other 17m Leavers, no doubt jumping on the same political bandwagon, together with about 400 MPs who SAID they voted to Remain, but who are now eagerly trying to spin the "we are Democrats to the core" mantra in the hope of being re-elected next time round !

Meanwhile the Press is reporting that Davis has been accusing EU Commission of dirty tricks which could undermine UK business because Brussels is preparing for a 'no deal' UK departure! You couldn't make this up, though I smiled at the quote from a European Commission spokesman who said "We in the European Commission are surprised the United Kingdom is surprised we are preparing for a scenario announced by the UK Government itself." Ouch!

Interesting to see Corbyn rule out a second referendum over the weekend. On the surface that might be a comfort to Brexiteers but on the other hand I see the expression BINO (Brexit in name only) is now being used increasingly widely and the divisions within the Conservative party seem to be getting worse.  All rather unedifying for the UK when viewed externally I think.

MDS posted:

................ BINO (Brexit in name only) is now being used increasingly widely and the divisions within the Conservative party seem to be getting worse.  All rather unedifying for the UK when viewed externally I think.

Looks like the Conservatives are in self destruct mode again - as only the Conservatives can do it.    Yes extremely unedifying as viewed from Brussels,        If it wasn't so serious it would be amusing to speculate on the outcome.  TM is walking wounded as I see it,  but who can step up,  Brexiteers vs Remainers,  Boris (lord help us, but the most likely 1st choice),  Hammond (I really wonder what side of the fence he is on)  Rudd (needs a safer seat)  Davis (probably not really interested)   Rees-Mogg (fossilised old school Tory)  Gove (snake in the grass)  Raab (each way outside bet) & dare I mention Patel.    ?????