Are we sleep-walking out of Europe ?

Mike-B posted:

MDS posted:

................ BINO (Brexit in name only) is now being used increasingly widely and the divisions within the Conservative party seem to be getting worse.  All rather unedifying for the UK when viewed externally I think.

Looks like the Conservatives are in self destruct mode again - as only the Conservatives can do it, time after time & time again.    Yes extremely unedifying as viewed from Brussels,        If it wasn't so serious it would be amusing to speculate on the outcome.  TM is walking wounded as I see it,  but who can step up,  Brexiteers vs Remainers,  Boris (lord help us, but the most likely 1st choice),  Hammond (I really wonder what side of the fence he is on)  Rudd (needs a safer seat)  Davis (probably not really interested)   Rees-Mogg (fossilised old school Tory)  Gove (snake in the grass)  Raab (each way outside bet) & dare I mention Patel.    ?????    

It’s called BRINO and Patel is not a worthwhile candidate in any shape or form. Mogg for ME!!! ????

MDS posted:

Interesting to see Corbyn rule out a second referendum over the weekend. On the surface that might be a comfort to Brexiteers but on the other hand I see the expression BINO (Brexit in name only) is now being used increasingly widely and the divisions within the Conservative party seem to be getting worse.  All rather unedifying for the UK when viewed externally I think.

The whole Brexit campaign was unedifying, making it embarrassing  to admit to being British when on holiday elsewhere in the EU

Trouble brewing in the Lords, too. My paper today reports that the Lords Constitution Committee has said that the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill is "fundamentally flawed" in multiple ways and risks "undermining legal certainty".  The criticisms seem not aimed at the Brexit decision itself but the way that HMG is proposing to enact it.  I know that the House of Commons can overturn what the Lords decide (and the Lords has yet to vote on the Bill) but with no real majority in the HoC HMG can't really be in a confident position to take on the Lords on question like this.   

Mike-B posted:

MDS posted:

................ BINO (Brexit in name only) is now being used increasingly widely and the divisions within the Conservative party seem to be getting worse.  All rather unedifying for the UK when viewed externally I think.

Looks like the Conservatives are in self destruct mode again - as only the Conservatives can do it.    Yes extremely unedifying as viewed from Brussels,        If it wasn't so serious it would be amusing to speculate on the outcome.  TM is walking wounded as I see it,  but who can step up,  Brexiteers vs Remainers,  Boris (lord help us, but the most likely 1st choice),  Hammond (I really wonder what side of the fence he is on)  Rudd (needs a safer seat)  Davis (probably not really interested)   Rees-Mogg (fossilised old school Tory)  Gove (snake in the grass)  Raab (each way outside bet) & dare I mention Patel.    ?????    

God help us if the Conservatives turn to the self-serving, egotistic Patel, Mike.  

Innocent Bystander posted:

MDS posted:

Interesting to see Corbyn rule out a second referendum over the weekend. On the surface that might be a comfort to Brexiteers but on the other hand I see the expression BINO (Brexit in name only) is now being used increasingly widely and the divisions within the Conservative party seem to be getting worse.  All rather unedifying for the UK when viewed externally I think.

The whole Brexit campaign was unedifying, making it embarrassing  to admit to being British when on holiday elsewhere in the EU

I was in Quimper when the results of the Referendum came in and had a lovely lively evening in a restaurant discussing the merits or otherwise of our decision with the Spanish and French customers. The only derogatory comment I heard was from a French customer who said that he had climbed the Alps between France and Italy so he could p@ss over the Italian border.

I was reading in ‘my paper’ earlier about the concept of leaving the single market (thereby not needing to make contributions and being able to manage immigration) but remaining in the customs union (thereby ensuring frictionless tariff free trade with the EU and solving the Irish border issue). The downside is that we couldn’t negotiate our own trade deals outwith the EU, but as so much of our trade is with the EU that doesn’t seem a big deal to me. In fact, it sounds like a bit of a win/win solution. Of course, the Hard Brexiters find remaining in the customs union on a par with eating babies, but why cut off your nose to spite your face if you don’t have to?

Hungryhalibut posted:

I was reading in ‘my paper’ earlier about the concept of leaving the single market (thereby not needing to make contributions and being able to manage immigration) but remaining in the customs union (thereby ensuring frictionless tariff free trade with the EU and solving the Irish border issue). The downside is that we couldn’t negotiate our own trade deals outwith the EU, but as so much of our trade is with the EU that doesn’t seem a big deal to me. In fact, it sounds like a bit of a win/win solution. Of course, the Hard Brexiters find remaining in the customs union on a par with eating babies, but why cut off your nose to spite your face if you don’t have to?

I love the way that Remoaners think that the trouble and strife (to use rhyming slang for both our relationship and the problems that exist within the EU) exists only because the UK decided to divorce from the great kleptocracy.

There are huge political, financial and economic problems within the institution and amongst its members.

To put it succinctly, they are desperate for our money and the tools we call politicians seem desperate to lob it at them. Trying to tie us into their ‘club’ with all sorts of regulatory and financial strictures for years may be gleeful schadenfreude to Remainers  but won’t be warmly received by the 17.4 million. 

We all know that the Westminster Europhile  monkeys think they are playing a great game because, after all, they know so much better than the lower orders, but carry on as is and we will definitely be out on WTO because they will have tied themselves in so many knots it will be the only way out! And OUT we are still going. 

MDS posted:

God help us if the Conservatives turn to the self-serving, egotistic Patel, Mike.  

Yep,  thats why I said 'dare I mention ..... '        She seems egotistic enough to think she could.   But then again the one over in US is more than enough to be going on with.  

Resurrection posted:

Mogg for ME!!! ????

Oh - me too!!! I really do hope so. Can I have a vote?

A Tory party with Rees-Mogg at its helm would not have a snowball's chance in Hell of being re-elected. Short of appointing John Redwood as party leader, there would be no surer way for the Tories to lose the next election.   

Hmack posted:

Resurrection posted:

Mogg for ME!!! ????

Oh - me too!!! I really do hope so. Can I have a vote?

A Tory party with Rees-Mogg at its helm would not have a snowball's chance in Hell of being re-elected. Short of appointing John Redwood as party leader, there would be no surer way for the Tories to lose the next election.   

 

Got to say though, it would be a hilarious ten minutes.

Despite the so called reality of post modern, post history, post post modern history - there's something interestingly compelling about the big old moggster.

Dave***t posted:

Hmack posted:

Resurrection posted:

Mogg for ME!!! ????

Oh - me too!!! I really do hope so. Can I have a vote?

A Tory party with Rees-Mogg at its helm would not have a snowball's chance in Hell of being re-elected. Short of appointing John Redwood as party leader, there would be no surer way for the Tories to lose the next election.   

 

Got to say though, it would be a hilarious ten minutes.

Yep! Just like your own Corbyn moment! And you have the gall to ridicule Mogg when you have Mao Tse Corbyn?

What, I wonder, would be Mogg's early initiatives, apart from hard Brexit and attempting to repatriate the colonies of the former British Empire? Hmmm......returning to black & white TV; mandatory cut-glass English accents for BBC announcers; 'gentleman' having to wear double-breasted suits in sober colours; re-introduction of the half-crown (and threepenny-bit for the commoners). Ah, the possibilities.      

I’m just looking forward to my car and Naim gear being made under Mr C’s  5 year plan - or will hifi be seen as an elitist persuit? Back to the village hall with wind up gramophones of approved music methinks?

Resurrection posted:

Hungryhalibut posted:

 

We all know that the Westminster Europhile  monkeys think they are playing a great game because, after all, they know so much better than the lower orders, but carry on as is and we will definitely be out on WTO because they will have tied themselves in so many knots it will be the only way out! And OUT we are still going. 

As, yes. As Gove said, people have had enough of listening to experts.  Where will that get us? 

MDS posted:

Resurrection posted:

Hungryhalibut posted:

 

We all know that the Westminster Europhile  monkeys think they are playing a great game because, after all, they know so much better than the lower orders, but carry on as is and we will definitely be out on WTO because they will have tied themselves in so many knots it will be the only way out! And OUT we are still going. 

As, yes. As Gove said, people have had enough of listening to experts.  Where will that get us? 

Er, Govey.

Resurrection posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

MDS posted:

Interesting to see Corbyn rule out a second referendum over the weekend. On the surface that might be a comfort to Brexiteers but on the other hand I see the expression BINO (Brexit in name only) is now being used increasingly widely and the divisions within the Conservative party seem to be getting worse.  All rather unedifying for the UK when viewed externally I think.

The whole Brexit campaign was unedifying, making it embarrassing  to admit to being British when on holiday elsewhere in the EU

I was in Quimper when the results of the Referendum came in and had a lovely lively evening in a restaurant discussing the merits or otherwise of our decision with the Spanish and French customers. The only derogatory comment I heard was from a French customer who said that he had climbed the Alps between France and Italy so he could p@ss over the Italian border.

I thought Macron was being very honest last week when he speculated that if France were to have a referendum on EU membership they would vote to leave.   

MDS posted:

What, I wonder, would be Mogg's early initiatives, apart from hard Brexit and attempting to repatriate the colonies of the former British Empire? Hmmm......returning to black & white TV; mandatory cut-glass English accents for BBC announcers; 'gentleman' having to wear double-breasted suits in sober colours; re-introduction of the half-crown (and threepenny-bit for the commoners). Ah, the possibilities.      

Ah, still better than back to the future East Germany style circa 1975, driving our Trabants that we can wait 10 years to be allocated while trying to keep clear of Momentum's Stasi. Mmm, Socialist Utopia. 

Resurrection posted:

 

 And OUT we are still going. 

 I wouldn’t be so sure about that.

Over the last few months there’s been a drip, drip, drip of politicians mentioning there may be another referendum.

Even the most vitriolic quitters, are now manoeuvring themselves into a position where they give the impression another referendum is a good idea.

And. Don’t forget, the referendum was really only a preferendum.

Huge posted:

Kevin-W posted:

MDS posted:

That's true. And if most of the electorate remembered the days of high Trade Union membership, widespread availability of council houses /flats, pre-privatisation of the railways, water companies etc etc I agree the prospect of a Corbyn-led government might be remote. But a very large proportion of the electorate were not alive in those days and will only know about them from the history books or being told about them by their parents or grand-parents. To very many young voters the socialist  agenda that Corbyn talks about is new and untried.    

Mike, I'm old enough to remember those days and the prospect of high Trade Union membership, railways and utilities in public ownership, and widespread availability of social housing (along with sensible interventions in markets) is rather attractive to me.

Certainly a more appealing prospect than the status quo.

I'm also old enough to remember the year of 24% inflation (1975).

I’m also old enough to remember rubbish piled high in the streets, rolling power cuts and being taught by Tilley lamps! Them were the days!

I'd love that to come true, Fatcat, and I agree that there's much political manoeuvring going on at the moment, but I've yet to see any of our leading politicians show sufficient courage to stand up and say the result of the referendum was wrong, the damage to the UK from leaving is going to be too great, and that we should have a rethink.   I think all of them fear being labelled 'undemocratic' and 'ignoring the will of the people'.  

MDS posted:

What, I wonder, would be Mogg's early initiatives, apart from hard Brexit and attempting to repatriate the colonies of the former British Empire? Hmmm......returning to black & white TV; mandatory cut-glass English accents for BBC announcers; 'gentleman' having to wear double-breasted suits in sober colours; re-introduction of the half-crown (and threepenny-bit for the commoners). Ah, the possibilities.      

Living in the British Isles but not UK, before the last day or two my only awareness of Reece-Mogg was from Have I got News For You - and I rather  liked his ability to laugh at himself.

Overall I am left feeling that he does at least appear to be totally honest and straight (iin the old-fashioned sense), refreshingly so given what seems to be the norm for senior politicians. Just a pity he cones from the political position he does.

MDS posted:

I'd love that to come true, Fatcat, and I agree that there's much political manoeuvring going on at the moment, but I've yet to see any of our leading politicians show sufficient courage to stand up and say the result of the referendum was wrong, the damage to the UK from leaving is going to be too great, and that we should have a rethink.   I think all of them fear being labelled 'undemocratic' and 'ignoring the will of the people'.  

Err, that's because it would be undemocratic and would be ignoring the will of the people. I know that sense of entitlement and superiority overrides those small details. After all, it's exactly what the people you appear to love and support have been doing for generations now. 

Innocent Bystander posted:

MDS posted:

What, I wonder, would be Mogg's early initiatives, apart from hard Brexit and attempting to repatriate the colonies of the former British Empire? Hmmm......returning to black & white TV; mandatory cut-glass English accents for BBC announcers; 'gentleman' having to wear double-breasted suits in sober colours; re-introduction of the half-crown (and threepenny-bit for the commoners). Ah, the possibilities.      

Living in the British Isles but not UK, before the last day or two my only awareness of Reece-Mogg was from Have I got News For You - and I rather  liked his ability to laugh at himself.

Overall I am left feeling that he does at least appear to be totally honest and straight (iin the old-fashioned sense), refreshingly so given what seems to be the norm for senior politicians. Just a pity he cones from the political position he does.

I quite like him too. He seems honest, authentic and, as you say, able to laugh at himself.  He's just from the wrong century. 

Innocent Bystander posted:

MDS posted:

What, I wonder, would be Mogg's early initiatives, apart from hard Brexit and attempting to repatriate the colonies of the former British Empire? Hmmm......returning to black & white TV; mandatory cut-glass English accents for BBC announcers; 'gentleman' having to wear double-breasted suits in sober colours; re-introduction of the half-crown (and threepenny-bit for the commoners). Ah, the possibilities.      

Living in the British Isles but not UK, before the last day or two my only awareness of Reece-Mogg was from Have I got News For You - and I rather  liked his ability to laugh at himself.

Overall I am left feeling that he does at least appear to be totally honest and straight (iin the old-fashioned sense), refreshingly so given what seems to be the norm for senior politicians. Just a pity he cones from the political position he does.

Go on IB hold your nose and give the bloke a chance, his qualities outshine any member of Parliament of the current generation and, as far as I know, he has not, and has no need to dip his hand into the public purse or sacrifice any principles to sleaze his way up his political career path. In fact his perceived lack of ambition seems to be his largest fault.