Are we sleep-walking out of Europe ?

Innocent Bystander posted:

MDS posted:

IB I'm not suggesting you are wrong, but regardless of how the balance of trade works out in the long term, in the short term everyone loses out if frontier checks between the EU and UK are imposed upon immediate exit because it would screw up the movement of hundreds of billions worth of trade, some of which simply moves through the UK in transit. The EU and its exporting and importing businesses would suffer greatly from this.  Barnier's posturing seems to ignore this.       

I see what you mean, however is there not the risk that EU will simply export a lot more to outside EU from its own ports, cutting out the UK middleman?

To some extent, I guess they will try but supply chains tend to follow well-used, high capacity routes where the infrastructure and the companies that operate them are well known and can be relied upon to meet tight door-to-door schedules. Re-routing millions of tonnes and items is a huge undertaking. Closing, say, the Channel tunnel and Heathrow (which shifts the most freight by value in the UK) would cause immense problems to shipping routes for transiting consignments.       

Huge posted:

MDS posted:

You have a delightfully colourful way of expressing your arguments, Resurrection 

<snip>

... but sadly that's all that's delightful, the substance is largely divorced from any justifiable critical analysis.

Ha! Ha! As is your own, mon brave.????

Resurrection posted:

MDS posted:

IB I'm not suggesting you are wrong, but regardless of how the balance of trade works out in the long term, in the short term everyone loses out if frontier checks between the EU and UK are imposed upon immediate exit because it would screw up the movement of hundreds of billions worth of trade, some of which simply moves through the UK in transit. The EU and its exporting and importing businesses would suffer greatly from this.  Barnier's posturing seems to ignore this.       

The thing is, ladies and gentlemen, the arguments you are regurgitating are the ones that were or should have been made at the time of the Referendum.

And it is not our, the public’s, fault that proper clear realistic information wasn’t presented at the time, but the incompetent idiots who drove the thing, and  on both sides with the mant false claims - and incompetent is the mildest way of putting it.

And that is precisely why, now all the realities are becoming evident, there should be another referendum to say now you know the facts, please confirm that you really want to leave.

Hasn't G Soros just donated £400k towards the campaign to get a second referendum?  

Maybe Rees Mogg and the others hard-line Brexiteers will now label Soros as a Corbynite.  

MDS posted:

Hasn't G Soros just donated £400k towards the campaign to get a second referendum?  

Maybe Rees Mogg and the others hard-line Brexiteers will now label Soros as a Corbynite.  

Is Rees-Mogg, a hero in my book, now a Remainers anti-Christ? A meek mannered, logical, self made man is now to be a Remoaning hate figure? Desperate stuff!

Resurrection posted:

Huge posted:

MDS posted:

You have a delightfully colourful way of expressing your arguments, Resurrection 

<snip>

... but sadly that's all that's delightful, the substance is largely divorced from any justifiable critical analysis.

Ha! Ha! As is your own, mon brave.????

In this particular case...

Guilt as charged m'lud! 

Resurrection posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

MDS posted:

IB I'm not suggesting you are wrong, but regardless of how the balance of trade works out in the long term, in the short term everyone loses out if frontier checks between the EU and UK are imposed upon immediate exit because it would screw up the movement of hundreds of billions worth of trade, some of which simply moves through the UK in transit. The EU and its exporting and importing businesses would suffer greatly from this.  Barnier's posturing seems to ignore this.       

I see what you mean, however is there not the risk that EU will simply export a lot more to outside EU from its own ports, cutting out the UK middleman?

Seriously IB, are you on the same planet. Most of what the UK exports passes through Rotterdam and will continue to do so post Brexit. Anything otherwise will be unacceptable to Holland as well as the UK. Inextricably  bound cones to mind, and that won't go away for a Bernie or U

Sorry, should have been  Juncker or Bernier, a right pair of cretinous oafs if you've ever met one.

Resurrection posted:

MDS posted:

Hasn't G Soros just donated £400k towards the campaign to get a second referendum?  

Maybe Rees Mogg and the others hard-line Brexiteers will now label Soros as a Corbynite.  

Is Rees-Mogg, a hero in my book, now a Remainers anti-Christ? A meek mannered, logical, self made man is now to be a Remoaning hate figure? Desperate stuff!

Rees-Mogg, total idiot. Anyone who thinks him otherwise is just the same. 

Resurrection posted:

MDS posted:

Hasn't G Soros just donated £400k towards the campaign to get a second referendum?  

Maybe Rees Mogg and the others hard-line Brexiteers will now label Soros as a Corbynite.  

Is Rees-Mogg, a hero in my book, now a Remainers anti-Christ? A meek mannered, logical, self made man is now to be a Remoaning hate figure? Desperate stuff!

Rather a disingenuous statement, methinks, or did his parents abandon or disinherit him, leaving him to fund his Eton education out of three paperrounds and a Saturday job?

Innocent Bystander posted:

Resurrection posted:

MDS posted:

Hasn't G Soros just donated £400k towards the campaign to get a second referendum?  

Maybe Rees Mogg and the others hard-line Brexiteers will now label Soros as a Corbynite.  

Is Rees-Mogg, a hero in my book, now a Remainers anti-Christ? A meek mannered, logical, self made man is now to be a Remoaning hate figure? Desperate stuff!

Rather a disingenuous statement, methinks, or did his parents abandon or disinherit him, leaving him to fund his Eton education out of three paperrounds and a Saturday job?

 

 

Doesn't matter how or where he went to school, his accumulated wealth is self made. Ironically, he began with the Lloyd George Emerging Wealth Fund before leaving that to head up Somerset Capital Fund. He is reckoned through all of this to be worth more than £100 million. On becoming an MP he stepped down as head of Somerset. I'm afraid that there is a great big ignorant hole below your own posting. Daddy did nor leave him £100 million. 

As usual, Remoaners are selective if not completely defective with their facts.

Resurrection posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

Resurrection posted:

MDS posted:

Hasn't G Soros just donated £400k towards the campaign to get a second referendum?  

Maybe Rees Mogg and the others hard-line Brexiteers will now label Soros as a Corbynite.  

Is Rees-Mogg, a hero in my book, now a Remainers anti-Christ? A meek mannered, logical, self made man is now to be a Remoaning hate figure? Desperate stuff!

Rather a disingenuous statement, methinks, or did his parents abandon or disinherit him, leaving him to fund his Eton education out of three paperrounds and a Saturday job?

 

 

Doesn't matter how or where he went to school, his accumulated wealth is self made. Ironically, he began with the Lloyd George Emerging Wealth Fund before leaving that to head up Somerset Capital Fund. He is reckoned through all of this to be worth more than £100 million. On becoming an MP he stepped down as head of Somerset. I'm afraid that there is a great big ignorant hole below your own posting. Daddy did nor leave him £100 million. 

As usual, Remoaners are selective if not completely defective with their facts.

1) I didn’t say or suggest he was left £100 million, however he did have a very privileged upbringing that the vast majority of people do not and which will have made him the man he became, a distinct advantage over someone born and brought up penniless. Also, though this is purely conjecture, it is very possible that his first business ventures were established with a bit more than what he had saved out of earnings from a paper round or Saturday job,  out of which he had had to fund anything beyond the clothes, food and home.

2) My opinion and assessment of him have nothing whatsoever to do with Brexit - I simply see him for what he is.

3) I don’t pretend to know all the facts, in Vrexit or indeed anything, but I am never deliberately selective with facts, weighing up what I know to make decisions and come to conclusions, so I trust you did not include me in that last statement: if you did then you owe me an apology.

I don't think Rees Mogg is an idiot. From what I've seen of him being interviewed and speaking in the House he appears to be highly intelligent and very thoughtful. I do though think he's completely out-of-touch with modern society and unsuited to lead the Conservative party.  

MDS posted:

I don't think Rees Mogg is an idiot. From what I've seen of him being interviewed and speaking in the House he appears to be highly intelligent and very thoughtful. I do though think he's completely out-of-touch with modern society and unsuited to lead the Conservative party.  

I agree fully apart from having no view on the last point.

From what little I have seen of him I do have some respect for him and have the impression that he is straight (in the asexual sense) and appears honest in his views, which is more than I can say for my impression of many politicians, and I suspect he may be a thoroughly nice chap.

But none of this means his views are the right ones for the country, which after all is the subject of the conversation.

Rees-Mogg would be an ideal Tory leader. He’d split the party, the Government would fall, and we’d have a Labour victory in the inevitable election. It would all need to happen quickly though, to give enough time to halt Brexit.

With more information emerging every day - the impact on GDP, the Irish border etc. etc., it’s just astonishing that the supporters of Brexit aren’t having second thoughts, especially as people like Boris never supported Brexit in the first place. There seems to be a belief that the nice Mrs May will get a deal that avoids all the potential pitfalls of leaving and which the EU are happy with. It’s just not going to happen. If Rees-Mogg is so clever, why doesn’t he see it? Just like there is no magic money tree, there is no magic deals tree either. How can these people knowingly damage the economy? With up to £2000 being lost per head, think of all the public services that could be paid for. And without being part of the EU, what do we do when the US insist we buy their chlorinated chickens and steroid stuffed beef, in order to agree the wonderful trade deal? It’s all bonkers. 

£100 million. I don't believe it.

sounds like yet another brexiteer fictional financial forecast.

Some interesting discussion points from all sides. Mogg is not the spawn of the devil and not, as far as I can tell, overly politically ambitious, although, like me, is an ardent Brexiteer.

The facts and figures that Remainers use to "reinforce" their own arguments are completely subjective. The 'facts' used both pre and post Referendum have been proven baseless. The value attached to the thinking a bunch of pencil pushers in the Civil Service is equally risible. 

Having transformed itself from the EEC to the EU, it went from being a semi-sensible economic union to attempting to become a blatant, political federal superstate whose control mechanisms give only a notional glance at democracy. 

Just as Osborne's post Referendum predictions proved nonsensical, the idea that we will suddenly be unable to trade with EU countries is equally nonsense. If The EU really does attempt to punish the UK for leaving, the backlash from the real economic producers will be immense and will have pretty catastrophic consequences for the EU itself.

Anone wanting to worry about economic Armageddon would be much better served looking at global stock markets than the ramblings of Barnier or Juncker.

fatcat posted:

£100 million. I don't believe it.

sounds like yet another brexiteer fictional financial forecast.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Rees-Mogg

And..

https://www.spectator.co.uk/20...-should-love-brexit/

If the SPeccie does not allow you to see the whole article then I might attempt to copy and paste it. After all, it is for your own good and education. ????

Hungryhalibut posted:

 

And without being part of the EU, what do we do when the US insist we buy their chlorinated chickens and steroid stuffed beef, in order to agree the wonderful trade deal? It’s all bonkers. 

But it won't be the architects of the fall that have to suffer that, only the little people (the ones who pay taxes).

Resurrection posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

Resurrection posted:

MDS posted:

Hasn't G Soros just donated £400k towards the campaign to get a second referendum?  

Maybe Rees Mogg and the others hard-line Brexiteers will now label Soros as a Corbynite.  

Is Rees-Mogg, a hero in my book, now a Remainers anti-Christ? A meek mannered, logical, self made man is now to be a Remoaning hate figure? Desperate stuff!

Rather a disingenuous statement, methinks, or did his parents abandon or disinherit him, leaving him to fund his Eton education out of three paperrounds and a Saturday job?

 

 

Doesn't matter how or where he went to school, his accumulated wealth is self made. Ironically, he began with the Lloyd George Emerging Wealth Fund before leaving that to head up Somerset Capital Fund. He is reckoned through all of this to be worth more than £100 million. On becoming an MP he stepped down as head of Somerset. I'm afraid that there is a great big ignorant hole below your own posting. Daddy did nor leave him £100 million. 

As usual, Remoaners are selective if not completely defective with their facts.

Is it not a little sad that some people appear to be shallow enough to equate the accumulation of wealth with 'greatness', and appear to be of the opinion that wealth itself is an attribute to be admired beyond all else?

If this is the case, then perhaps Rees-Mogg is not the person we should be touting as our next PM. After all, £100m is a rather paltry sum, is it not, given that the bar has been raised by a certain leader in the US? Perhaps we should be looking at the likes of Richard Branson instead. Now, he has accumulated a much more creditable amount of wealth than Rees-Mogg, and this despite an even less privileged upbringing than that of the unfortunate Rees-Mogg whose Daddy was apparently something of a pauper, and only just able to afford to grant him an education at Eton.

Resurrection posted:

Seriously IB, are you on the same planet. Most of what the UK exports passes through Rotterdam and will continue to do so post Brexit. Anything otherwise will be unacceptable to Holland as well as the UK. Inextricably  bound cones to mind, and that won't go away for a Bernie or U

The problem is that it’s not just the EU that demands “third country” status for the U.K. following Brexit (without a “deal”).  As I understand it, it is demanded by international law / international trade agreements and the EU would be in breach of those if they don’t treat the U.K. in such a way (unless there is a trade agreement in place).

Please don't just copy and paste an entire article.  Better to paraphrase and include selected pertinent quotes, if you must.

Hungryhalibut posted:

Rees-Mogg would be an ideal Tory leader. He’d split the party, the Government would fall, and we’d have a Labour victory in the inevitable election. It would all need to happen quickly though, to give enough time to halt Brexit.

<snip>

Very good...

Twisted
Machivellian
And very funny 

I like it, even though I know you really do mean it! 

fatcat posted:

£100 million. I don't believe it.

sounds like yet another brexiteer fictional financial forecast.

It used to be... until the stock market crashed... again!

Question Time was on in the background last night only to hear the UKIP member explain that the only reason we are going to have any hard borders, particularly in Ireland is because the EU is demanding them. Nothing to do with UKIP and Brexiteers wanting to control our own borders etc. Of course if they had their way, we would control the border and then.......  remove all those restrictions unless you are........etc. And the Tory MP desperately trying to say much the same without saying that it was the EU or the Brexiteers fault!

Dear God.  ....Unicorns and fairies 

Richard Dane posted:

Please don't just copy and paste an entire article.  Better to paraphrase and include selected pertinent quotes, if you must.

Why?