Are we sleep-walking out of Europe ?

This thread would get a bit boring if the only members contributing to it were those of us who think Brexit is a stupid idea. I for one would be pleased if more in favour of Brexit contributed their views. Debate is healthy. And  I think some gentle teasing helps to lighten what can become an overly polarised and emotional issue. Indeed I think our politicians would do well to use more humour and less nastiness in addressing those who hold different views.   

Huge posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

Defeated at last.

He * defeated himself before he even started.

I feel certain he won't shut up though. =>This is not a very nice thing to say Huge.  Certainly you are better than this?

*  I assume Resurection identifies as male, but without other information, I accept all other possibilities. =>  Such as that he is smarter, more logical, and soundly reasonable than the lot of you? 

What have smartness, logic and reasonableness to do with gender identity?

As I usually do, I made no assumption so said he/she. Not sure if I should have included ‘it’?

Resurrection posted:

Huge posted:

Eloise posted:

Resurrection posted:

good old self serving British management simply accelerated our decline as a nation. Thatcher was needed by the country, did steady the ship and scraped away some of the rotten meat much to the horror of her (many) detractors. 

The self serving British management is the result of right wing not left wing.  Its still in force today!

<snip>

In my observation the Management problem in Britain is that Management is seen as a job per se, rather than a means to make a business run more efficiently.

The only way for a manager to justify their salary, is to make those whom they manage work that much more efficiently so that they then earn more revenue for the company than it costs to employ the manager!  (This is a very unpopular opinion when expressed to most 'professional' managers!)

Actually, hopefully to be fair to you, I believe it has been far too easy for foreign companies to asset strip here eg Cadburys  or  ARM and also too easy to come and go unpenalised eg Cadburys again. Too easy to steal a business or simply remove it.

And leaving the EU will put an end to all this ?

Florestan posted:

Huge posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

Defeated at last.

He * defeated himself before he even started.

I feel certain he won't shut up though. =>This is not a very nice thing to say Huge.  Certainly you are better than this?
True, but if you read the whole thread (all 84 sorry pages of it) you'll find that this is less insulting than some of the things he's said about me!  However I accept that it was a little rude, even if it subsequently proves to be true!

*  I assume Resurection identifies as male, but without other information, I accept all other possibilities. =>  Such as that he is smarter, more logical, and soundly reasonable than the lot of you? 
Or equally possibly quite the reverse (despite his undoubted intelligence)? But then both of those suggestions would be non-sequiturs, so this probably refers to gender; since no mention of smartness, logic or reason was present in the original statement and this therefore formulates a question concerning your own logic!  
So, to use the seemingly relevant Americanism 'Right back at ya!".

MDS posted:

This thread would get a bit boring if the only members contributing to it were those of us who think Brexit is a stupid idea. I for one would be pleased if more in favour of Brexit contributed their views. Debate is healthy. And  I think some gentle teasing helps to lighten what can become an overly polarised and emotional issue. Indeed I think our politicians would do well to use more humour and less nastiness in addressing those who hold different views.   

I suppose we could take it in turns. 

Brexit is a great idea - we can all learn to live in a much more frugal way, our lower incomes being better for the soul. Workers from businesses that will have moved operations overseas will have a rewarding time training to be nurses and other health workers, fruit and vegetable pickes, etc to replace the lost migrant EU workers; a win-win situation. Our diet will improve as we shift from purchasing  EU produced food controlled by too many safety regulations, instead reaping the health benefits of chlorinated chicken, GM food, etc from the US. And instead of those annoyingly cheap holidays with flights insufficiently long to enjoy a few films, we’ll either enjoy long flights making the travel a more enjoyable and significant part of the holiday, or benefit from the reduced risk of skin cancer holidaying in the British summer rain insted of having to put up with wall-to-wall nice weather and foreign food. 

Don Atkinson posted:

Resurrection posted:

Huge posted:

Eloise posted:

Resurrection posted:

good old self serving British management simply accelerated our decline as a nation. Thatcher was needed by the country, did steady the ship and scraped away some of the rotten meat much to the horror of her (many) detractors. 

The self serving British management is the result of right wing not left wing.  Its still in force today!

<snip>

In my observation the Management problem in Britain is that Management is seen as a job per se, rather than a means to make a business run more efficiently.

The only way for a manager to justify their salary, is to make those whom they manage work that much more efficiently so that they then earn more revenue for the company than it costs to employ the manager!  (This is a very unpopular opinion when expressed to most 'professional' managers!)

Actually, hopefully to be fair to you, I believe it has been far too easy for foreign companies to asset strip here eg Cadburys  or  ARM and also too easy to come and go unpenalised eg Cadburys again. Too easy to steal a business or simply remove it.

And leaving the EU will put an end to all this ?

Absolutely not, but it would allow us to point our fingers at a single source.

Florestan,

Many of those who contribute to this thread and who have proclaimed their support for Brexit have done so with dignity. As someone who wished to remain in the EU, I very strongly disagree with their views of the EU and the benefits of EU membership, but (for the most part) I respect their genuinely held points of view. 

Unfortunately, Resurrection does not fall into this category. He is one of a select few Brexiteers on the forum whose sole purpose in contributing to this thread appears to be to gloat over the result of the referendum and contribute a number of smug, self-centred and acerbic comments that are designed to be as divisive as possible. Come to think of it, rather like a certain distasteful individual on the other side of the pond who delights in divisiveness, and for whom I believe you might have a similar admiration.    

Hmack posted:

Florestan,

Many of those who contribute to this thread and who have proclaimed their support for Brexit have done so with dignity. As someone who wished to remain in the EU, I very strongly disagree with their views of the EU and the benefits of EU membership, but (for the most part) I respect their genuinely held points of view. 

Unfortunately, Resurrection does not fall into this category. He is one of a select few Brexiteers on the forum whose sole purpose in contributing to this thread appears to be to gloat over the result of the referendum and contribute a number of smug, self-centred and acerbic comments that are designed to be as divisive as possible. Come to think of it, rather like a certain distasteful individual on the other side of the pond who delights in divisiveness, and for whom I believe you might have a similar admiration.    

I am 'umbled. Your contemptuous assessment is symptomatic of the nonsense that poses for logic and reasoning from most of the Remainers posting on this site. Like carrion hoping for a bit of dead flesh, you feel that if I don't interject or simply accept your totally unargued position then I am somehow defeated.

Not one of you has actually managed to land a single logical blow to prove that my own position is in any way flawed. Your narrow minded, self congratulatory arrogance may sit well amongst yourselves but it simply reinforces my own belief in sloughing off the EU and its arrogant spawn. Go on, beat that! God I'm really good! 

Well done, Richard, you saved me from myself, even though I was hugely funny and not a swear word in sight! ????

I will save some of those lines for later.

Or in the case of Cadbury's, a chocolate sauce! 

Off work, in bed with a chest infection so thought I would catch up with this Donathon:

Here are my musings:

I recently bought my wife two bags of the Giant Cadburys Buttons for Valentines Day. She prefers them to any other chocolate and had two bags for Christmas too. I am not aware of her reporting any changes in the quality of the product and they were cheap at a quid a bag.

It is obvious to me that the three main protagonists behind the longevity of this thread namely Resurrection, Huge and Don are very intelligent, politically aware people and it has made for some robust and challenging debate. Others have chipped in too and I think Resurrection has been hounded at times although he always seems up for the fight whereas I grow tired with it being insinuated that because I voted to leave I mustn't be able to comprehend the arguements being made or I am just a Little Britainer at heart.

Ray

Innocent Bystander posted:

What have smartness, logic and reasonableness to do with gender identity?

As I usually do, I made no assumption so said he/she. Not sure if I should have included ‘it’?

For many who are non-binary, the preferred pronoun is 'They'; however, while some have other preferences, 'they' is usually a good starting point.

MDS posted:

This thread would get a bit boring if the only members contributing to it were those of us who think Brexit is a stupid idea. I for one would be pleased if more in favour of Brexit contributed their views. Debate is healthy. And  I think some gentle teasing helps to lighten what can become an overly polarised and emotional issue. Indeed I think our politicians would do well to use more humour and less nastiness in addressing those who hold different views.   

Pity the Vatican has abolished the role of "Devil's Advocate", this would be an ideal circumstance in which to exercise that pattern of discourse!

There used to be a Gentlemans club in Norwich called The Devils Advocate.

Never went there myself but not much political debate went on in that establishment from what I heard.

When?  I used to work in Norwich in the 1980s.

I'm a little loathe to suggest it, because almost any pro-Brexit position will get savaged on here...  But I would be interested in a logical explanation as to why Brexit, when taken as a whole, is, on balance beneficial to the UK.  So far, all the explanations I've been given (and there's been quite a few) either don't hold up factually, or are based on emotional responses to single issue concerns without any thought to the overview.

Personally, the most significant single issue concerns I have with the EU are:
1  The Common Agricultural Policy and the Common Fisheries Policy.  Whilst these have laudable aims, and are succeeding to some degree, the implementation of each is ill-conceived and they both have (different and substantial) undesirable side effects.
2  The intent to move toward Federalisation.  However, this only truly becomes an issue if it becomes a mandatory condition of membership of the EU, and that is most unlikely.
I believe we should work within the EU to modify these for the benefit of all.  Indeed the UK government has already been instrumental in bringing about very substantial revision of the CAP (even though much more needs to be done, but we are still engaged in the next phase of improving it's efficiency).
That is not to say that these are my only concerns but these are by far the most significant.

All the other issues I see as a relatively minor disadvantage, no consequence or as beneficial (and some I see as considerably beneficial).

So, on balance, I find the EU of significant benefit to the UK.

thebigfredc posted:

I recently bought my wife two bags of the Giant Cadburys Buttons for Valentines Day. She prefers them to any other chocolate and had two bags for Christmas too. 

Ray

You old romantic, Ray.  

Not many men would get away with a gift of two packets of choc buttons for Valentines Day.

thebigfredc posted:

I recently bought my wife two bags of the Giant Cadburys Buttons for Valentines Day. She prefers them to any other chocolate and had two bags for Christmas too. I am not aware of her reporting any changes in the quality of the product and they were cheap at a quid a bag.

With respect to your wife's taste in chocolate ... any reduction in quality is NOT the issue with Cadbury (though in the last couple of years they did reduce the "quality" of Creme Eggs by replacing the Dairy Milk chocolate with a more generic Cadbury's milk chocolate).  

The issue is the promise that Kraft (now Mondelez International) made that they wouldn't shut production in UK in favour of cheaper foreign locations.  A promise they renegade on almost immediately they had control of the company.  

For example although Cadbury's already planned to close the Keynsham plant moving production to Poland primarily; Kraft promised the plan would be saved in part to persuade the government the deal was good for British "Industry" once the deal was in place they did a quick U turn and the plant was closed soon after.

PS. I'm not entirely sure the actual promises that were made, etc. as I'm going on memory and wikipedia to remind me.

PPS. None of this has anything to do with the EU.

Cadbury/Fry's Somerdale site as it  today the main factory has been converted into flats and living accommodation  a new Primary School,Doctors Surgery,Restaurant,Health Club etc etc have been incorporated into  the development plus lots of new houses on the land in front of the factory part of the deal was the they had to retain the Sports Facilities and Social Club which have been relocated to another part of the site.

Huge,

Its doorway entrance was opposite the Murderes Pub.

I spotted it whilst out shopping with the family in approximately the late 90s and it was still there last time I went to Norwich for a few pints in about 2010 because I remember that Capello was the new England manager and we beat someone like Croatia 3-1 away from home and we bought he was the new messiah.

Chaps at work recently told me it had closed but I only have their words for it.

Ray

MDS posted:

thebigfredc posted:

I recently bought my wife two bags of the Giant Cadburys Buttons for Valentines Day. She prefers them to any other chocolate and had two bags for Christmas too. 

Ray

You old romantic, Ray.  

Not many men would get away with a gift of two packets of choc buttons for Valentines Day.

I did get off my death bed to get them and I know she did appreciate the gesture.

Posting something in another thread prompts an interesting thought: if Brexit does happen, does it also mean Britain will reinstate £sd coinage, as we’d have no need to think decimally any more? 

Tory would-be leader Moggie and Labour leader seem very old-school. Come to think of it , grammar schools are on the way back in - definitely old school (though not sure that includes the old strict rule of discipline).

It’s starting to sound as if we’re heading back to the sixties

...flower power, psychedelia, free love, ban the bomb.  

...the kids are alright, my generation, won’t get fooled again.

...out demons out, momma’s reward, keep them freaks a’rolling.

Maybe there’s something to like after all 

Ironic, I've just been listening to Michael Moorcock & the Deep Fix "The New Worlds Fair" - kind of appropriate really!

Innocent Bystander posted:

 

Tory would-be leader Moggie and Labour leader seem very old-school. Come to think of it , grammar schools are on the way back in - definitely old school (though not sure that includes the old strict rule of discipline).

It’s starting to sound as if we’re heading back to the sixties

 

 

Eighteen sixties, more like.

Days of Empire, kids up chimneys, six-day working week, employers are 'god', 'charity' rather than welfare, pay-as-you-go doctors for the few.  

But it will all be brilliant because we will have 'taken back control'

Imperial versus Metric, 

both have their merits. Decimal has an obvious advantage in so much as base 10 is easier to add, divide etc but in some instances the unit itself seems too small, or big or just plain wrong. For example, when travelling on the motorway the kilometres count down too quickly compared with miles. I can never remember my height or weight in metric and I have noticed this trait with other people too, not all of them old duffers like me.