Are we sleep-walking out of Europe ?

Reading into this today it seems that Jeremy Corbyn’s position is an option and would ultimately depend on the EU granting the UK a seat at the table when it negotiates future trade deals.  This would seem highly unlikely and of course would be impossible if at the same time the UK were actively seeking its own arrangements with the nation(s) concerned.   

Ultimately of course the only real solution is remaining a full member of the EU. Funny old thing.   

A short time ago I listened to an interview given by BJ on the radio today, where he attempted to argue that the Irish border was not really a problem were we to leave the single market and the customs union, because the Irish border isn't really any different to the border between any two London Boroughs. Technical solutions could be brought to bear to resolve any issues.

Is he for real? Is he really stupid enough to believe this, or is he even more devious than I had thought? 

Hmack posted:

A short time ago I listened to an interview given by BJ on the radio today, where he attempted to argue that the Irish border was not really a problem were we to leave the single market and the customs union, because the Irish border isn't really any different to the border between any two London Boroughs. Technical solutions could be brought to bear to resolve any issues.

Is he for real? Is he really stupid enough to believe this, or is he even more devious than I had thought? 

The latter.

Hmack posted:

A short time ago I listened to an interview given by BJ on the radio today, where he attempted to argue that the Irish border was not really a problem were we to leave the single market and the customs union, because the Irish border isn't really any different to the border between any two London Boroughs. Technical solutions could be brought to bear to resolve any issues.

Is he for real? Is he really stupid enough to believe this, or is he even more devious than I had thought? 

If he genuinely believes that, he is an idiot. My guess is he hasn't bothered to properly research the issue and/or to listen to the advice of others who do know about it, which also says quite a bit about his character e.g. prepared to be a wilful liar to defend his position.  

So the trade deals being pursued outside the EU equate to 'a packet of crisps' compared to the 'three-course meal' we have by being part of the biggest single market in the world.  An analogy that I think is going to get well-used. 

MDS posted:

So the trade deals being pursued outside the EU equate to 'a packet of crisps' compared to the 'three-course meal' we have by being part of the biggest single market in the world.  An analogy that I think is going to get well-used. 

Exactly.  

The Strat (Fender) posted:

MDS posted:

So the trade deals being pursued outside the EU equate to 'a packet of crisps' compared to the 'three-course meal' we have by being part of the biggest single market in the world.  An analogy that I think is going to get well-used. 

Exactly.  

Am always inspired by career bureaucrats who run off at the mouth once they've collected their not so well earned gongs then open same mouths and prove why civil servants should keep them shut. Adonis, of course, is another one. Too much time spent telling one another how clever they are and if only they, rather than the politicians, were left in charge what a wonderful world this would be. 

cf. Sir Humphrey Appleby and Mr Jim Hacker!  

Arghh - Sir Humphtey - there was someone who understood the machinations of government!

Resurrection posted:

The Strat (Fender) posted:

MDS posted:

So the trade deals being pursued outside the EU equate to 'a packet of crisps' compared to the 'three-course meal' we have by being part of the biggest single market in the world.  An analogy that I think is going to get well-used. 

Exactly.  

Am always inspired by career bureaucrats who run off at the mouth once they've collected their not so well earned gongs then open same mouths and prove why civil servants should keep them shut. Adonis, of course, is another one. Too much time spent telling one another how clever they are and if only they, rather than the politicians, were left in charge what a wonderful world this would be. 

But does that make what they say any less true, Resurrection? What possible advantage does Donnelly have to gain by speaking out in this way? He's not politically aligned and, as former permanent secretary for international trade, ought to know something about the topic that he has spoken on, don't you think?  

MDS posted:

Resurrection posted:

The Strat (Fender) posted:

MDS posted:

So the trade deals being pursued outside the EU equate to 'a packet of crisps' compared to the 'three-course meal' we have by being part of the biggest single market in the world.  An analogy that I think is going to get well-used. 

Exactly.  

Am always inspired by career bureaucrats who run off at the mouth once they've collected their not so well earned gongs then open same mouths and prove why civil servants should keep them shut. Adonis, of course, is another one. Too much time spent telling one another how clever they are and if only they, rather than the politicians, were left in charge what a wonderful world this would be. 

But does that make what they say any less true, Resurrection? What possible advantage does Donnelly have to gain by speaking out in this way? He's not politically aligned and, as former permanent secretary for international trade, ought to know something about the topic that he has spoken on, don't you think?  

I have to agree that Donnelly knows a lot about the subject given that his career progression was very much aligned to and within the EU. He is a die hard EUrophile which in itself is no problem but let's not pretend that he is impartial whatsoever. And as for his ability to differentiate between an economic packet of crisps and a three course dinner after living his whole career in a hermetically sealed bureaucratic bubble, well, Mystic Meg is as entitled to make a reasoned deduction as Donnelly. Although I grant you that Mystic Meg never got a PPE from Oxford.

Lovely retort, Resurrection.  I sometimes think Boris gets his advice from Mystic Meg. His utterances today comparing the Irish Land Boundary issue to the congestion charge suggested he was in the realms of fantasy.  I bet officials in the Foreign Office were holding their heads in exasperation. 

Anyway, Donnelly could well be Europhile but, still, that doesn't mean he is wrong on this issue, however inconvenient that might be for BJ and co.  Indeed, I'm a little surprised that Gove hasn't rushed out a statement reminding us of his previous wisdom that 'people are fed up listening to experts'.   But then he would have to admit that Donnelly knows the area of international trade quite well.  Oh, well. It must be tough being a Brexiteer politician these days, what with all those contortions and contradictions that seem to need 'explaining' on an almost daily basis.  

MDS posted:

Lovely retort, Resurrection.  I sometimes think Boris gets his advice from Mystic Meg. His utterances today comparing the Irish Land Boundary issue to the congestion charge suggested he was in the realms of fantasy.  I bet officials in the Foreign Office were holding their heads in exasperation. 

Anyway, Donnelly could well be Europhile but, still, that doesn't mean he is wrong on this issue, however inconvenient that might be for BJ and co.  Indeed, I'm a little surprised that Gove hasn't rushed out a statement reminding us of his previous wisdom that 'people are fed up listening to experts'.   But then he would have to admit that Donnelly knows the area of international trade quite well.  Oh, well. It must be tough being a Brexiteer politician these days, what with all those contortions and contradictions that seem to need 'explaining' on an almost daily basis.  

 

Although I appreciate that you all know that I'm an ardent Brexiteer it does not make me an admirer or believer in BJ. The man is an opportunist as desperate to grasp power as Corbyn is, or at least Corbyn's masters are. As far as I'm concerned the Westminster wrigglers are mainly worms anyway. Wasn't someone advocating doing without politicians and relying totally on interactive media voting? Ah yes, I believe it was Beppe Grillo, currently front runner in the Italian polls, which shows how disillusioned the Italian electorate are.

Resurrection posted:

MDS posted:

 

Although I appreciate that you all know that I'm an ardent Brexiteer it does not make me an admirer or believer in BJ. The man is an opportunist as desperate to grasp power as Corbyn is, or at least Corbyn's masters are. As far as I'm concerned the Westminster wrigglers are mainly worms anyway. Wasn't someone advocating doing without politicians and relying totally on interactive media voting? Ah yes, I believe it was Beppe Grillo, currently front runner in the Italian polls, which shows how disillusioned the Italian electorate are.

We have some common ground, Resurrection. This is getting scary!

Resurrection posted:

MDS posted:

Lovely retort, Resurrection.  I sometimes think Boris gets his advice from Mystic Meg. His utterances today comparing the Irish Land Boundary issue to the congestion charge suggested he was in the realms of fantasy.  I bet officials in the Foreign Office were holding their heads in exasperation. 

Anyway, Donnelly could well be Europhile but, still, that doesn't mean he is wrong on this issue, however inconvenient that might be for BJ and co.  Indeed, I'm a little surprised that Gove hasn't rushed out a statement reminding us of his previous wisdom that 'people are fed up listening to experts'.   But then he would have to admit that Donnelly knows the area of international trade quite well.  Oh, well. It must be tough being a Brexiteer politician these days, what with all those contortions and contradictions that seem to need 'explaining' on an almost daily basis.  

 

Although I appreciate that you all know that I'm an ardent Brexiteer it does not make me an admirer or believer in BJ. The man is an opportunist as desperate to grasp power as Corbyn is, or at least Corbyn's masters are. As far as I'm concerned the Westminster wrigglers are mainly worms anyway. Wasn't someone advocating doing without politicians and relying totally on interactive media voting? Ah yes, I believe it was Beppe Grillo, currently front runner in the Italian polls, which shows how disillusioned the Italian electorate are.

Resurrection, Such brilliantly articulated descriptive prose! ATB Minh

Yes, Minh. Resurrection and I disagree on Brexit but his posts are well-written, entertaining and often funny.  

MDS posted:

Yes, Minh. Resurrection and I disagree on Brexit but his posts are well-written, entertaining and often funny.  

BJ the abbreviation sounds so wrong at all fundamental levels: I would not use that term in front of my mother. Resurrection describes him in what could be considered to be his entirety in so few well constructed words!

Actually, I am sitting listening to Beggars Banquet and these words from Salt of the Earth are as resonant today:

"Lets think of the wavering millions
Who need leaders but get gamblers instead"

It's good to have HiFi that actually lets you hear the words. In this instance 50 years after I bought the original in Mono. After all, we may viscerally disagree on politics but surely we are on this site through a love of music and spending lots of money on HiFi. 

Resurrection posted:

Although I appreciate that you all know that I'm an ardent Brexiteer it does not make me an admirer or believer in BJ. The man is an opportunist as desperate to grasp power as Corbyn is, or at least Corbyn's masters are. As far as I'm concerned the Westminster wrigglers are mainly worms anyway.

If you think this way, why are you in such a hurry to repatriate powers from the EU to the UK government?

Anybody taking an impartial look at the way brexit is being handled by the EU compared to the UK, would have to say the EU are far more competent. I’m in favour of giving them more powers, not less.

This weeks Mash Report had an entertaining take on Brexit.

https://www.facebook.com/theda...os/1466526990123131/

fatcat posted:

Resurrection posted:

Although I appreciate that you all know that I'm an ardent Brexiteer it does not make me an admirer or believer in BJ. The man is an opportunist as desperate to grasp power as Corbyn is, or at least Corbyn's masters are. As far as I'm concerned the Westminster wrigglers are mainly worms anyway.

If you think this way, why are you in such a hurry to repatriate powers from the EU to the UK government?

Anybody taking an impartial look at the way brexit is being handled by the EU compared to the UK, would have to say the EU are far more competent. I’m in favour of giving them more powers, not less.

 

Fatcat, if EU had stayed as the EEC and had not attempted to create a political superstate whose seat of power in Brussels contains even more appalling politicians than slither around Westminster then I might agree with you.

As long as the individual states that make up the EU are tolerant of the EU, and many are because they are net recipients of the EU budget as well as having a means to better their countries either through easy migration and an initial boost to their economies as has happened to Portugal, Southern Ireland, and of course the Eastern European states then they will be reasonably compliant. The cracks are appearing in countries like Greece and Italy through mass migration, high unemployment and being shackled to the Euro. The Eastern Europeans will not tolerate mass immigration as they have too recently been occupied and in fact are very resistant to cultural change or you might see it as being simply very racist.

Although Germany is the largest contributor to the EU budget it also benefits hugely due to the Euro being much weaker than the old Deutschmark would have been by now. By being adroit at pulling the EU strings, France has also done well out of the EU. 

Since our own politicians have been appalling at playing the EU game and appear to be rampant appeasers we have allowed ourselves to be on the receiving end of what appears to me to be some extremely uncomfortable and unnatural practices, but probably not to the Public School PPEs pretending to be politicians who would really like someone else to take away any of their responsibility.

Eastern Europeans love immigrants, in fact immigrants get better treatment from their  health services than the locals do.

You can't say the UK didn't benefit from being in the EU.

Ironically Boris Johnson is right being part of the customs union will reduce us to being a colony of the EU as opposed to a ful member of the EU and the benefits that that brings.  

Resurrection posted:

fatcat posted:

Resurrection posted:

Although I appreciate that you all know that I'm an ardent Brexiteer it does not make me an admirer or believer in BJ. The man is an opportunist as desperate to grasp power as Corbyn is, or at least Corbyn's masters are. As far as I'm concerned the Westminster wrigglers are mainly worms anyway.

If you think this way, why are you in such a hurry to repatriate powers from the EU to the UK government?

Anybody taking an impartial look at the way brexit is being handled by the EU compared to the UK, would have to say the EU are far more competent. I’m in favour of giving them more powers, not less.

 

Fatcat, if EU had stayed as the EEC and had not attempted to create a political superstate whose seat of power in Brussels contains even more appalling politicians than slither around Westminster then I might agree with you.

As long as the individual states that make up the EU are tolerant of the EU, and many are because they are net recipients of the EU budget as well as having a means to better their countries either through easy migration and an initial boost to their economies as has happened to Portugal, Southern Ireland, and of course the Eastern European states then they will be reasonably compliant. The cracks are appearing in countries like Greece and Italy through mass migration, high unemployment and being shackled to the Euro. The Eastern Europeans will not tolerate mass immigration as they have too recently been occupied and in fact are very resistant to cultural change or you might see it as being simply very racist.

Although Germany is the largest contributor to the EU budget it also benefits hugely due to the Euro being much weaker than the old Deutschmark would have been by now. By being adroit at pulling the EU strings, France has also done well out of the EU. 

Since our own politicians have been appalling at playing the EU game and appear to be rampant appeasers we have allowed ourselves to be on the receiving end of what appears to me to be some extremely uncomfortable and unnatural practices, but probably not to the Public School PPEs pretending to be politicians who would really like someone else to take away any of their responsibility.

I for one am voting for Resurrection at the next election.

thebigfredc posted:

Resurrection posted:

fatcat posted:

Resurrection posted:

Although I appreciate that you all know that I'm an ardent Brexiteer it does not make me an admirer or believer in BJ. The man is an opportunist as desperate to grasp power as Corbyn is, or at least Corbyn's masters are. As far as I'm concerned the Westminster wrigglers are mainly worms anyway.

If you think this way, why are you in such a hurry to repatriate powers from the EU to the UK government?

Anybody taking an impartial look at the way brexit is being handled by the EU compared to the UK, would have to say the EU are far more competent. I’m in favour of giving them more powers, not less.

 

Fatcat, if EU had stayed as the EEC and had not attempted to create a political superstate whose seat of power in Brussels contains even more appalling politicians than slither around Westminster then I might agree with you.

As long as the individual states that make up the EU are tolerant of the EU, and many are because they are net recipients of the EU budget as well as having a means to better their countries either through easy migration and an initial boost to their economies as has happened to Portugal, Southern Ireland, and of course the Eastern European states then they will be reasonably compliant. The cracks are appearing in countries like Greece and Italy through mass migration, high unemployment and being shackled to the Euro. The Eastern Europeans will not tolerate mass immigration as they have too recently been occupied and in fact are very resistant to cultural change or you might see it as being simply very racist.

Although Germany is the largest contributor to the EU budget it also benefits hugely due to the Euro being much weaker than the old Deutschmark would have been by now. By being adroit at pulling the EU strings, France has also done well out of the EU. 

Since our own politicians have been appalling at playing the EU game and appear to be rampant appeasers we have allowed ourselves to be on the receiving end of what appears to me to be some extremely uncomfortable and unnatural practices, but probably not to the Public School PPEs pretending to be politicians who would really like someone else to take away any of their responsibility.

I for one am voting for Resurrection at the next election.

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