Are we sleep-walking out of Europe ?

I will be voting for Boris Johnson at the next election because he is the bloke who "rightly" said that Sirte, in Libya, could become “the next Dubai” if they could “clear the dead bodies away”.

Frank Yang posted:

I will be voting for Boris Johnson at the next election because he is the bloke who "rightly" said that Sirte, in Libya, could become “the next Dubai” if they could “clear the dead bodies away”.

Unfortunately Johnson's articulation is so much more often clumsy and stilted that gems like that rarely shine through. I was going to say that he writes better than he speaks but it is a while since I have read an article by him. Is he still writing for the Telegraph? Probably unsurprisingly to many of you, I am a Melanie Philips fan. Boy, she's a class act in both writing and thinking. That's my tuppence worth of Marmite for you to digest this breakfast time. ????

Minh Nguyen posted:

thebigfredc posted:

I for one am voting for Resurrection at the next election.

+1

Strangely, despite holding diametrically opposed views on Brexit, if the General Election were to occur soon after a hard Brexit, I would also vote for Resurrection, as they are eloquent, logical and a true committed Brexit believer (but I'd only vote for them under these conditions).

Resurrection posted:

Wasn't someone advocating doing without politicians and relying totally on interactive media voting? Ah yes, I believe it was Beppe Grillo, currently front runner in the Italian polls, which shows how disillusioned the Italian electorate are.

Someone's been watching The Orville...

Eloise posted:

Resurrection posted:

Wasn't someone advocating doing without politicians and relying totally on interactive media voting? Ah yes, I believe it was Beppe Grillo, currently front runner in the Italian polls, which shows how disillusioned the Italian electorate are.

Someone's been watching The Orville...

Yes, that episode was a very clever piece of social commentary on the combination of social media and populism.

Huge posted:

Eloise posted:

Resurrection posted:

Wasn't someone advocating doing without politicians and relying totally on interactive media voting? Ah yes, I believe it was Beppe Grillo, currently front runner in the Italian polls, which shows how disillusioned the Italian electorate are.

Someone's been watching The Orville...

Yes, that episode was a very clever piece of social commentary on the combination of social media and populism.

Ha! Ha!  I think it might have been the Speccie but don't hold me to it. Certainly not The Orville cos, err, I don't know what it is.

Huge posted:

Minh Nguyen posted:

thebigfredc posted:

I for one am voting for Resurrection at the next election.

+1

Strangely, despite holding diametrically opposed views on Brexit, if the General Election were to occur soon after a hard Brexit, I would also vote for Resurrection, as they are eloquent, logical and a true committed Brexit believer (but I'd only vote for them under these conditions).

I am 'umbled but completely dispirited and disillusioned with most of the political world at the moment. The US deserves the Tango Twerp. Canada, and no country anywhere, deserves the ludicrous Trudeau whose antics in India this week with the dressing up of himself and family in full faux Indian regalia, attempting to Bhangra dance and just generally making a fool of himself, is just symptomatic of a worldwide malaise. Everything about Western world politics screams Ancien Regime and self entitlement. 

Resurrection posted:

Huge posted:

Eloise posted:

Resurrection posted:

Wasn't someone advocating doing without politicians and relying totally on interactive media voting? Ah yes, I believe it was Beppe Grillo, currently front runner in the Italian polls, which shows how disillusioned the Italian electorate are.

Someone's been watching The Orville...

Yes, that episode was a very clever piece of social commentary on the combination of social media and populism.

Ha! Ha!  I think it might have been the Speccie but don't hold me to it. Certainly not The Orville cos, err, I don't know what it is.

Definitely 'The Orville'.

How can you claim "Certainly not The Orville..." when you say "...cos, err, I don't know what it is."!

Logical conclusion:-
As you're so certain it's not what you don't know, you must be implying that anything of which you do not know, cannot possibly be; therefore I must rescind my previous comment expressing the view that I would vote for you! 

Huge posted:

Resurrection posted:

Huge posted:

Eloise posted:

Resurrection posted:

Wasn't someone advocating doing without politicians and relying totally on interactive media voting? Ah yes, I believe it was Beppe Grillo, currently front runner in the Italian polls, which shows how disillusioned the Italian electorate are.

Someone's been watching The Orville...

Yes, that episode was a very clever piece of social commentary on the combination of social media and populism.

Ha! Ha!  I think it might have been the Speccie but don't hold me to it. Certainly not The Orville cos, err, I don't know what it is.

Definitely 'The Orville'.

How can you claim "Certainly not The Orville..." when you say "...cos, err, I don't know what it is."!

Logical conclusion:-
As you're so certain it's not what you don't know, you must be implying that anything of which you do not know, cannot possibly be; therefore I must rescind my previous comment expressing the view that I would vote for you! 

Touchė! I deserved that. ????

I’m sure Reaurrection will make a fine PM, President of the EU, Sec Gen of NATO and Chair of the UN but I can’t follow any of this

Resurrection posted:

Although Germany is the largest contributor to the EU budget it also benefits hugely due to the Euro being much weaker than the old Deutschmark would have been by now.

This may be partially true; however let’s not forget how different things were a couple of decades ago. In 1999, on the back of years of slow growth, high unemployment, soaring interest rates and several post-unification recessions, the Economist ran an article dubbing Germany “The Sick Man of the euro” noting that “its ills are a main cause of the euro’s own weakness”.

While Germany attempted to overcome severe structural deficits in the years that followed, it looked on as the UK enjoyed eight consecutive years of strong GDP growth.

If Germany is economically stronger than ever today, it is not because of a weak euro. It’s down to hard graft.

In 2011, The Guardian made an interesting comparison of the German and UK economies. “Germany has long earned plaudits for workers’ rights, with company boards well-endowed with workers reps who have a say in the decision-making process.” A persistent trade deficit [in the UK], especially in goods, is often overlooked because Britain makes large gains on its investments abroad to balance the books.“

Regarding executive pay: UK: “Corporate excess still goes on, despite widespread calls for restraint...”. Germany: “German board members traditionally earn far less than their counterparts in the UK and the US.”

While one may conjecture how strong the old Deutschmark may have been, Sterling has enjoyed yet another devaluation in anticipation of Brexit. Might that be beneficial to the UK? Well, this will depend on, among other things, whether it will draw even more investment from e.g. European countries.

Now that the UK has opted to contribute nothing to Europe, while continuing to pursue its old-boy economy to the exclusion of its own working people, I have joined the plethora of British nationals in Germany who have applied for German citizenship.

It’s just a pity that we British nationals weren’t allowed to vote in the British referendum.

William posted:

Resurrection posted:

Although Germany is the largest contributor to the EU budget it also benefits hugely due to the Euro being much weaker than the old Deutschmark would have been by now.

This may be partially true; however let’s not forget how different things were a couple of decades ago. In 1999, on the back of years of slow growth, high unemployment, soaring interest rates and several post-unification recessions, the Economist ran an article dubbing Germany “The Sick Man of the euro” noting that “its ills are a main cause of the euro’s own weakness”.

While Germany attempted to overcome severe structural deficits in the years that followed, it looked on as the UK enjoyed eight consecutive years of strong GDP growth.

If Germany is economically stronger than ever today, it is not because of a weak euro. It’s down to hard graft.

In 2011, The Guardian made an interesting comparison of the German and UK economies. “Germany has long earned plaudits for workers’ rights, with company boards well-endowed with workers reps who have a say in the decision-making process.” A persistent trade deficit [in the UK], especially in goods, is often overlooked because Britain makes large gains on its investments abroad to balance the books.“

Regarding executive pay: UK: “Corporate excess still goes on, despite widespread calls for restraint...”. Germany: “German board members traditionally earn far less than their counterparts in the UK and the US.”

While one may conjecture how strong the old Deutschmark may have been, Sterling has enjoyed yet another devaluation in anticipation of Brexit. Might that be beneficial to the UK? Well, this will depend on, among other things, whether it will draw even more investment from e.g. European countries.

Now that the UK has opted to contribute nothing to Europe, while continuing to pursue its old-boy economy to the exclusion of its own working people, I have joined the plethora of British nationals in Germany who have applied for German citizenship.

It’s just a pity that we British nationals weren’t allowed to vote in the British referendum.

William, your points are well made. The disparity between the German and U.K. economic models has exasperated me for years. To have the title of Herr Ingeneur is something to be proud of in AustroGerman nations but is downgraded to an oily rag in the U.K. The commitment and pride in being part of a German manufacturing company  can and does mean that the them and us attitude is nowhere near as prevalent in Germany as in the U.K. Germans seem to have faith in their management and not the resentment and distrust that marred and helped to destroy British industry in the post war era. When it comes to large scale manufacturing it has been proven that British workers can deliver for foreign management as evidenced with Toyota, Nissan, BMW Mini and even Jaguar Land Rover, but not so good if left to our own devices. 

Where we have Oases of excellence is in entrepreneurial design and development e.g. F1 and even NASCAR design, chip design by companies like ARM, now gobbled up by a dodgy Japanese bloke who would never be allowed to repeat the process in Japan, and aerospace design and manufacturing. In the privately owned sector JC Bamford stands proud but I guarantee if it ever went public it would be swallowed and gone in no time at all. We do not really respect or protect our homegrown companies. Blimey, even Naim was swallowed by Focal and you will find couched foreign ownership amongst many old longstanding British HiFi companies. We are too open to plundering.

I am divorcing my comments from our European debate as the faults are inherent within our society, its politicians, its Establishment and educational values. For a rampant right winger I think you will also see that I hold what some may interpret or misinterpret as Socialist views. Worthless wastes of ideological spaces such as Corbyn or Cameron could not define or remotely deliver a constructive plan for a successful Britain. Cameron lives in a world of media and public relations while Corbyn cannot find time to talk of anything other than the NHS or the public sector which both rely on earned and tax paid moneys - not money trees.

William,

You make some good points, especially in relation to long-standing British boardroom excesses.

But...'It’s just a pity that we British nationals weren’t allowed to vote in the British referendum.'

If, by your own admission, you don't live here and have no intention to either and therefore contribute nothing in terms of income tax, NI or VAT, then why should you be allowed to vote?

Ray

Presumably because he was a British citizen despite living and working in Germany.

Would you have denied him a vote, or if your answer is 'yes - he had no right to vote', would you then have granted a vote in the referendum to our friends from France, Germany, Italy, Romania and Greece who happened to be  working and living in the UK at the time of the referendum.

Let's have a recount!   

Resurrection posted:

I am divorcing my comments from our European debate as the faults are inherent within our society, its politicians, its Establishment and educational values. For a rampant right winger I think you will also see that I hold what some may interpret or misinterpret as Socialist views. Worthless wastes of ideological spaces such as Corbyn or Cameron could not define or remotely deliver a constructive plan for a successful Britain. Cameron lives in a world of media and public relations while Corbyn cannot find time to talk of anything other than the NHS or the public sector which both rely on earned and tax paid moneys - not money trees.

I'm not sure you can lay the blame for these failures at the feet of individuals or politicians generally.  As a nation we demand somewhat ideological, polarised stances from our politician.  Our media will never look at nuances and require yes/no answers to questions which are complex.

Now if the media are leading that way of thinking, or if they simple reflect the demands of the populous I'm unsure ... the 144 character twitter generation can hardly be helping.

The failings of industry and the Us vs Them attitude that prevails is just (IMO) a continuing demonstration that class and the class divide is still alive and well in the UK.

PS. I can re-asure you no one would misinterpret those views as being in any way socialist.   :-)

Ray, HMack is spot on. Strangely I am not allowed to vote in Germany as a British citizen although I have been paying taxes here for over 25 years, and I am not allowed to vote in Britain although I and my family both paid tax, NI and VAT there for years.

Just another example of how the needs of our populations in Germany and Britain cannot be addressed effectively outside an EU framework.

thebigfredc posted:

If, by your own admission, you don't live here and have no intention to either and therefore contribute nothing in terms of income tax, NI or VAT, then why should you be allowed to vote?

But then by that reasoning ... surely all foreign nationals who live full time in the UK and contribute in terms of income tax, NI and VAT SHOULD have been allowed to vote?

Resurrection posted:

William posted:

Resurrection posted:

 

William, your points are well made. The disparity between the German and U.K. economic models has exasperated me for years. To have the title of Herr Ingeneur is something to be proud of in AustroGerman nations but is downgraded to an oily rag in the U.K. The commitment and pride in being part of a German manufacturing company  can and does mean that the them and us attitude is nowhere near as prevalent in Germany as in the U.K. Germans seem to have faith in their management and not the resentment and distrust that marred and helped to destroy British industry in the post war era. When it comes to large scale manufacturing it has been proven that British workers can deliver for foreign management as evidenced with Toyota, Nissan, BMW Mini and even Jaguar Land Rover, but not so good if left to our own devices. 

Where we have Oases of excellence is in entrepreneurial design and development e.g. F1 and even NASCAR design, chip design by companies like ARM, now gobbled up by a dodgy Japanese bloke who would never be allowed to repeat the process in Japan, and aerospace design and manufacturing. In the privately owned sector JC Bamford stands proud but I guarantee if it ever went public it would be swallowed and gone in no time at all. We do not really respect or protect our homegrown companies. Blimey, even Naim was swallowed by Focal and you will find couched foreign ownership amongst many old longstanding British HiFi companies. We are too open to plundering.

I am divorcing my comments from our European debate as the faults are inherent within our society, its politicians, its Establishment and educational values. For a rampant right winger I think you will also see that I hold what some may interpret or misinterpret as Socialist views. Worthless wastes of ideological spaces such as Corbyn or Cameron could not define or remotely deliver a constructive plan for a successful Britain. Cameron lives in a world of media and public relations while Corbyn cannot find time to talk of anything other than the NHS or the public sector which both rely on earned and tax paid moneys - not money trees.

Crikey. I find myself nodding at a lot of this too!

In particular: the undervaluing of engineering skills in the UK; the often poor senior management in the UK; the ridiculous salaries and bonuses of the top private sector bosses in the UK.  

But......just to get back on track......I wouldn't lay the blame for any of those ills on the EU. We'll still have them when we've left.

William posted:

Ray, HMack is spot on. Strangely I am not allowed to vote in Germany as a British citizen although I have been paying taxes here for over 25 years, and I am not allowed to vote in Britain although I and my family both paid tax, NI and VAT there for years.

Just another example of how the needs of our populations in Germany and Britain cannot be addressed effectively outside an EU framework.

25 years is nothing compared with the 2 million or so disenfranchised Turkish Guestworkers in Germany, some of whom are third generation Turks born in Germany as were there parents whereas British nationality is usually contingent on being born here.

The German laws and nationality can be made flexible though if you happen to be any good at footie ie Ozill, Kaderia etc

Eloise posted:

Resurrection posted:

I am divorcing my comments from our European debate as the faults are inherent within our society, its politicians, its Establishment and educational values. For a rampant right winger I think you will also see that I hold what some may interpret or misinterpret as Socialist views. Worthless wastes of ideological spaces such as Corbyn or Cameron could not define or remotely deliver a constructive plan for a successful Britain. Cameron lives in a world of media and public relations while Corbyn cannot find time to talk of anything other than the NHS or the public sector which both rely on earned and tax paid moneys - not money trees.

I'm not sure you can lay the blame for these failures at the feet of individuals or politicians generally.  As a nation we demand somewhat ideological, polarised stances from our politician.  Our media will never look at nuances and require yes/no answers to questions which are complex.

Now if the media are leading that way of thinking, or if they simple reflect the demands of the populous I'm unsure ... the 144 character twitter generation can hardly be helping.

The failings of industry and the Us vs Them attitude that prevails is just (IMO) a continuing demonstration that class and the class divide is still alive and well in the UK.

PS. I can re-asure you no one would misinterpret those views as being in any way socialist.   :-)

Got to be quick, Eloise, as a I need to hit the pub after a stressful day!!!!  I agree with 100% of what you say. How's about that! ????

fatcat posted:

This weeks Mash Report had an entertaining take on Brexit.

https://www.facebook.com/theda...os/1466526990123131/

 

Funny, often accurate, and depressing, all at the same time.  The official replies from DEXEU are particularly shameful. 

thebigfredc posted:

William posted:

Ray, HMack is spot on. Strangely I am not allowed to vote in Germany as a British citizen although I have been paying taxes here for over 25 years, and I am not allowed to vote in Britain although I and my family both paid tax, NI and VAT there for years.

Just another example of how the needs of our populations in Germany and Britain cannot be addressed effectively outside an EU framework.

25 years is nothing compared with the 2 million or so disenfranchised Turkish Guestworkers in Germany, some of whom are third generation Turks born in Germany as were there parents whereas British nationality is usually contingent on being born here.

The German laws and nationality can be made flexible though if you happen to be any good at footie ie Ozill, Kaderia etc

Although I agree that many potential voters are disenfranchised all over Europe, on a technical point anyone 18 years or over and born and resident in Germany is entitled to German nationality and may vote.

Been listening to TM's speech today ... it strikes me though that she says about still wanting to be close to and a large part of "Europe" - the problem is that the best way to be close to and part of the EU is to be a member of the EU.  If you want to go alone, then you have to go alone.

What the prime minister set out today seams to be the worst of all worlds.

PS. did anyone else notice Robert Peston doesn't know who he works for ... he announced he was "Robert Peston BBC".

The speech was talked-up as 'big reveal' but from the bits I've heard, while there was some welcome recognition of some of the trickier issues, I expected more substance.    

Eloise posted:

What the prime minister set out today seams to be the worst of all worlds.

I would agree that TM has a large wardrobe of bizarre clothing, but what was she wearing today? Trousers with neat seams?