Are we sleep-walking out of Europe ?

Resurrection posted:

Although I appreciate that you all know that I'm an ardent Brexiteer it does not make me an admirer or believer in BJ. The man is an opportunist as desperate to grasp power as Corbyn is, or at least Corbyn's masters are. As far as I'm concerned the Westminster wrigglers are mainly worms anyway.

If you think this way, why are you in such a hurry to repatriate powers from the EU to the UK government?

Anybody taking an impartial look at the way brexit is being handled by the EU compared to the UK, would have to say the EU are far more competent. I’m in favour of giving them more powers, not less.

This weeks Mash Report had an entertaining take on Brexit.

https://www.facebook.com/theda...os/1466526990123131/

fatcat posted:

Resurrection posted:

Although I appreciate that you all know that I'm an ardent Brexiteer it does not make me an admirer or believer in BJ. The man is an opportunist as desperate to grasp power as Corbyn is, or at least Corbyn's masters are. As far as I'm concerned the Westminster wrigglers are mainly worms anyway.

If you think this way, why are you in such a hurry to repatriate powers from the EU to the UK government?

Anybody taking an impartial look at the way brexit is being handled by the EU compared to the UK, would have to say the EU are far more competent. I’m in favour of giving them more powers, not less.

 

Fatcat, if EU had stayed as the EEC and had not attempted to create a political superstate whose seat of power in Brussels contains even more appalling politicians than slither around Westminster then I might agree with you.

As long as the individual states that make up the EU are tolerant of the EU, and many are because they are net recipients of the EU budget as well as having a means to better their countries either through easy migration and an initial boost to their economies as has happened to Portugal, Southern Ireland, and of course the Eastern European states then they will be reasonably compliant. The cracks are appearing in countries like Greece and Italy through mass migration, high unemployment and being shackled to the Euro. The Eastern Europeans will not tolerate mass immigration as they have too recently been occupied and in fact are very resistant to cultural change or you might see it as being simply very racist.

Although Germany is the largest contributor to the EU budget it also benefits hugely due to the Euro being much weaker than the old Deutschmark would have been by now. By being adroit at pulling the EU strings, France has also done well out of the EU. 

Since our own politicians have been appalling at playing the EU game and appear to be rampant appeasers we have allowed ourselves to be on the receiving end of what appears to me to be some extremely uncomfortable and unnatural practices, but probably not to the Public School PPEs pretending to be politicians who would really like someone else to take away any of their responsibility.

Eastern Europeans love immigrants, in fact immigrants get better treatment from their  health services than the locals do.

You can't say the UK didn't benefit from being in the EU.

Ironically Boris Johnson is right being part of the customs union will reduce us to being a colony of the EU as opposed to a ful member of the EU and the benefits that that brings.  

Resurrection posted:

fatcat posted:

Resurrection posted:

Although I appreciate that you all know that I'm an ardent Brexiteer it does not make me an admirer or believer in BJ. The man is an opportunist as desperate to grasp power as Corbyn is, or at least Corbyn's masters are. As far as I'm concerned the Westminster wrigglers are mainly worms anyway.

If you think this way, why are you in such a hurry to repatriate powers from the EU to the UK government?

Anybody taking an impartial look at the way brexit is being handled by the EU compared to the UK, would have to say the EU are far more competent. I’m in favour of giving them more powers, not less.

 

Fatcat, if EU had stayed as the EEC and had not attempted to create a political superstate whose seat of power in Brussels contains even more appalling politicians than slither around Westminster then I might agree with you.

As long as the individual states that make up the EU are tolerant of the EU, and many are because they are net recipients of the EU budget as well as having a means to better their countries either through easy migration and an initial boost to their economies as has happened to Portugal, Southern Ireland, and of course the Eastern European states then they will be reasonably compliant. The cracks are appearing in countries like Greece and Italy through mass migration, high unemployment and being shackled to the Euro. The Eastern Europeans will not tolerate mass immigration as they have too recently been occupied and in fact are very resistant to cultural change or you might see it as being simply very racist.

Although Germany is the largest contributor to the EU budget it also benefits hugely due to the Euro being much weaker than the old Deutschmark would have been by now. By being adroit at pulling the EU strings, France has also done well out of the EU. 

Since our own politicians have been appalling at playing the EU game and appear to be rampant appeasers we have allowed ourselves to be on the receiving end of what appears to me to be some extremely uncomfortable and unnatural practices, but probably not to the Public School PPEs pretending to be politicians who would really like someone else to take away any of their responsibility.

I for one am voting for Resurrection at the next election.

thebigfredc posted:

Resurrection posted:

fatcat posted:

Resurrection posted:

Although I appreciate that you all know that I'm an ardent Brexiteer it does not make me an admirer or believer in BJ. The man is an opportunist as desperate to grasp power as Corbyn is, or at least Corbyn's masters are. As far as I'm concerned the Westminster wrigglers are mainly worms anyway.

If you think this way, why are you in such a hurry to repatriate powers from the EU to the UK government?

Anybody taking an impartial look at the way brexit is being handled by the EU compared to the UK, would have to say the EU are far more competent. I’m in favour of giving them more powers, not less.

 

Fatcat, if EU had stayed as the EEC and had not attempted to create a political superstate whose seat of power in Brussels contains even more appalling politicians than slither around Westminster then I might agree with you.

As long as the individual states that make up the EU are tolerant of the EU, and many are because they are net recipients of the EU budget as well as having a means to better their countries either through easy migration and an initial boost to their economies as has happened to Portugal, Southern Ireland, and of course the Eastern European states then they will be reasonably compliant. The cracks are appearing in countries like Greece and Italy through mass migration, high unemployment and being shackled to the Euro. The Eastern Europeans will not tolerate mass immigration as they have too recently been occupied and in fact are very resistant to cultural change or you might see it as being simply very racist.

Although Germany is the largest contributor to the EU budget it also benefits hugely due to the Euro being much weaker than the old Deutschmark would have been by now. By being adroit at pulling the EU strings, France has also done well out of the EU. 

Since our own politicians have been appalling at playing the EU game and appear to be rampant appeasers we have allowed ourselves to be on the receiving end of what appears to me to be some extremely uncomfortable and unnatural practices, but probably not to the Public School PPEs pretending to be politicians who would really like someone else to take away any of their responsibility.

I for one am voting for Resurrection at the next election.

+1

I will be voting for Boris Johnson at the next election because he is the bloke who "rightly" said that Sirte, in Libya, could become “the next Dubai” if they could “clear the dead bodies away”.

Frank Yang posted:

I will be voting for Boris Johnson at the next election because he is the bloke who "rightly" said that Sirte, in Libya, could become “the next Dubai” if they could “clear the dead bodies away”.

Unfortunately Johnson's articulation is so much more often clumsy and stilted that gems like that rarely shine through. I was going to say that he writes better than he speaks but it is a while since I have read an article by him. Is he still writing for the Telegraph? Probably unsurprisingly to many of you, I am a Melanie Philips fan. Boy, she's a class act in both writing and thinking. That's my tuppence worth of Marmite for you to digest this breakfast time. ????

Minh Nguyen posted:

thebigfredc posted:

I for one am voting for Resurrection at the next election.

+1

Strangely, despite holding diametrically opposed views on Brexit, if the General Election were to occur soon after a hard Brexit, I would also vote for Resurrection, as they are eloquent, logical and a true committed Brexit believer (but I'd only vote for them under these conditions).

Resurrection posted:

Wasn't someone advocating doing without politicians and relying totally on interactive media voting? Ah yes, I believe it was Beppe Grillo, currently front runner in the Italian polls, which shows how disillusioned the Italian electorate are.

Someone's been watching The Orville...

Eloise posted:

Resurrection posted:

Wasn't someone advocating doing without politicians and relying totally on interactive media voting? Ah yes, I believe it was Beppe Grillo, currently front runner in the Italian polls, which shows how disillusioned the Italian electorate are.

Someone's been watching The Orville...

Yes, that episode was a very clever piece of social commentary on the combination of social media and populism.

Huge posted:

Eloise posted:

Resurrection posted:

Wasn't someone advocating doing without politicians and relying totally on interactive media voting? Ah yes, I believe it was Beppe Grillo, currently front runner in the Italian polls, which shows how disillusioned the Italian electorate are.

Someone's been watching The Orville...

Yes, that episode was a very clever piece of social commentary on the combination of social media and populism.

Ha! Ha!  I think it might have been the Speccie but don't hold me to it. Certainly not The Orville cos, err, I don't know what it is.

Huge posted:

Minh Nguyen posted:

thebigfredc posted:

I for one am voting for Resurrection at the next election.

+1

Strangely, despite holding diametrically opposed views on Brexit, if the General Election were to occur soon after a hard Brexit, I would also vote for Resurrection, as they are eloquent, logical and a true committed Brexit believer (but I'd only vote for them under these conditions).

I am 'umbled but completely dispirited and disillusioned with most of the political world at the moment. The US deserves the Tango Twerp. Canada, and no country anywhere, deserves the ludicrous Trudeau whose antics in India this week with the dressing up of himself and family in full faux Indian regalia, attempting to Bhangra dance and just generally making a fool of himself, is just symptomatic of a worldwide malaise. Everything about Western world politics screams Ancien Regime and self entitlement. 

Resurrection posted:

Huge posted:

Eloise posted:

Resurrection posted:

Wasn't someone advocating doing without politicians and relying totally on interactive media voting? Ah yes, I believe it was Beppe Grillo, currently front runner in the Italian polls, which shows how disillusioned the Italian electorate are.

Someone's been watching The Orville...

Yes, that episode was a very clever piece of social commentary on the combination of social media and populism.

Ha! Ha!  I think it might have been the Speccie but don't hold me to it. Certainly not The Orville cos, err, I don't know what it is.

Definitely 'The Orville'.

How can you claim "Certainly not The Orville..." when you say "...cos, err, I don't know what it is."!

Logical conclusion:-
As you're so certain it's not what you don't know, you must be implying that anything of which you do not know, cannot possibly be; therefore I must rescind my previous comment expressing the view that I would vote for you! 

Huge posted:

Resurrection posted:

Huge posted:

Eloise posted:

Resurrection posted:

Wasn't someone advocating doing without politicians and relying totally on interactive media voting? Ah yes, I believe it was Beppe Grillo, currently front runner in the Italian polls, which shows how disillusioned the Italian electorate are.

Someone's been watching The Orville...

Yes, that episode was a very clever piece of social commentary on the combination of social media and populism.

Ha! Ha!  I think it might have been the Speccie but don't hold me to it. Certainly not The Orville cos, err, I don't know what it is.

Definitely 'The Orville'.

How can you claim "Certainly not The Orville..." when you say "...cos, err, I don't know what it is."!

Logical conclusion:-
As you're so certain it's not what you don't know, you must be implying that anything of which you do not know, cannot possibly be; therefore I must rescind my previous comment expressing the view that I would vote for you! 

Touchė! I deserved that. ????

I’m sure Reaurrection will make a fine PM, President of the EU, Sec Gen of NATO and Chair of the UN but I can’t follow any of this

Resurrection posted:

Although Germany is the largest contributor to the EU budget it also benefits hugely due to the Euro being much weaker than the old Deutschmark would have been by now.

This may be partially true; however let’s not forget how different things were a couple of decades ago. In 1999, on the back of years of slow growth, high unemployment, soaring interest rates and several post-unification recessions, the Economist ran an article dubbing Germany “The Sick Man of the euro” noting that “its ills are a main cause of the euro’s own weakness”.

While Germany attempted to overcome severe structural deficits in the years that followed, it looked on as the UK enjoyed eight consecutive years of strong GDP growth.

If Germany is economically stronger than ever today, it is not because of a weak euro. It’s down to hard graft.

In 2011, The Guardian made an interesting comparison of the German and UK economies. “Germany has long earned plaudits for workers’ rights, with company boards well-endowed with workers reps who have a say in the decision-making process.” A persistent trade deficit [in the UK], especially in goods, is often overlooked because Britain makes large gains on its investments abroad to balance the books.“

Regarding executive pay: UK: “Corporate excess still goes on, despite widespread calls for restraint...”. Germany: “German board members traditionally earn far less than their counterparts in the UK and the US.”

While one may conjecture how strong the old Deutschmark may have been, Sterling has enjoyed yet another devaluation in anticipation of Brexit. Might that be beneficial to the UK? Well, this will depend on, among other things, whether it will draw even more investment from e.g. European countries.

Now that the UK has opted to contribute nothing to Europe, while continuing to pursue its old-boy economy to the exclusion of its own working people, I have joined the plethora of British nationals in Germany who have applied for German citizenship.

It’s just a pity that we British nationals weren’t allowed to vote in the British referendum.

William posted:

Resurrection posted:

Although Germany is the largest contributor to the EU budget it also benefits hugely due to the Euro being much weaker than the old Deutschmark would have been by now.

This may be partially true; however let’s not forget how different things were a couple of decades ago. In 1999, on the back of years of slow growth, high unemployment, soaring interest rates and several post-unification recessions, the Economist ran an article dubbing Germany “The Sick Man of the euro” noting that “its ills are a main cause of the euro’s own weakness”.

While Germany attempted to overcome severe structural deficits in the years that followed, it looked on as the UK enjoyed eight consecutive years of strong GDP growth.

If Germany is economically stronger than ever today, it is not because of a weak euro. It’s down to hard graft.

In 2011, The Guardian made an interesting comparison of the German and UK economies. “Germany has long earned plaudits for workers’ rights, with company boards well-endowed with workers reps who have a say in the decision-making process.” A persistent trade deficit [in the UK], especially in goods, is often overlooked because Britain makes large gains on its investments abroad to balance the books.“

Regarding executive pay: UK: “Corporate excess still goes on, despite widespread calls for restraint...”. Germany: “German board members traditionally earn far less than their counterparts in the UK and the US.”

While one may conjecture how strong the old Deutschmark may have been, Sterling has enjoyed yet another devaluation in anticipation of Brexit. Might that be beneficial to the UK? Well, this will depend on, among other things, whether it will draw even more investment from e.g. European countries.

Now that the UK has opted to contribute nothing to Europe, while continuing to pursue its old-boy economy to the exclusion of its own working people, I have joined the plethora of British nationals in Germany who have applied for German citizenship.

It’s just a pity that we British nationals weren’t allowed to vote in the British referendum.

William, your points are well made. The disparity between the German and U.K. economic models has exasperated me for years. To have the title of Herr Ingeneur is something to be proud of in AustroGerman nations but is downgraded to an oily rag in the U.K. The commitment and pride in being part of a German manufacturing company  can and does mean that the them and us attitude is nowhere near as prevalent in Germany as in the U.K. Germans seem to have faith in their management and not the resentment and distrust that marred and helped to destroy British industry in the post war era. When it comes to large scale manufacturing it has been proven that British workers can deliver for foreign management as evidenced with Toyota, Nissan, BMW Mini and even Jaguar Land Rover, but not so good if left to our own devices. 

Where we have Oases of excellence is in entrepreneurial design and development e.g. F1 and even NASCAR design, chip design by companies like ARM, now gobbled up by a dodgy Japanese bloke who would never be allowed to repeat the process in Japan, and aerospace design and manufacturing. In the privately owned sector JC Bamford stands proud but I guarantee if it ever went public it would be swallowed and gone in no time at all. We do not really respect or protect our homegrown companies. Blimey, even Naim was swallowed by Focal and you will find couched foreign ownership amongst many old longstanding British HiFi companies. We are too open to plundering.

I am divorcing my comments from our European debate as the faults are inherent within our society, its politicians, its Establishment and educational values. For a rampant right winger I think you will also see that I hold what some may interpret or misinterpret as Socialist views. Worthless wastes of ideological spaces such as Corbyn or Cameron could not define or remotely deliver a constructive plan for a successful Britain. Cameron lives in a world of media and public relations while Corbyn cannot find time to talk of anything other than the NHS or the public sector which both rely on earned and tax paid moneys - not money trees.

William,

You make some good points, especially in relation to long-standing British boardroom excesses.

But...'It’s just a pity that we British nationals weren’t allowed to vote in the British referendum.'

If, by your own admission, you don't live here and have no intention to either and therefore contribute nothing in terms of income tax, NI or VAT, then why should you be allowed to vote?

Ray

Presumably because he was a British citizen despite living and working in Germany.

Would you have denied him a vote, or if your answer is 'yes - he had no right to vote', would you then have granted a vote in the referendum to our friends from France, Germany, Italy, Romania and Greece who happened to be  working and living in the UK at the time of the referendum.

Let's have a recount!   

Resurrection posted:

I am divorcing my comments from our European debate as the faults are inherent within our society, its politicians, its Establishment and educational values. For a rampant right winger I think you will also see that I hold what some may interpret or misinterpret as Socialist views. Worthless wastes of ideological spaces such as Corbyn or Cameron could not define or remotely deliver a constructive plan for a successful Britain. Cameron lives in a world of media and public relations while Corbyn cannot find time to talk of anything other than the NHS or the public sector which both rely on earned and tax paid moneys - not money trees.

I'm not sure you can lay the blame for these failures at the feet of individuals or politicians generally.  As a nation we demand somewhat ideological, polarised stances from our politician.  Our media will never look at nuances and require yes/no answers to questions which are complex.

Now if the media are leading that way of thinking, or if they simple reflect the demands of the populous I'm unsure ... the 144 character twitter generation can hardly be helping.

The failings of industry and the Us vs Them attitude that prevails is just (IMO) a continuing demonstration that class and the class divide is still alive and well in the UK.

PS. I can re-asure you no one would misinterpret those views as being in any way socialist.   :-)

Ray, HMack is spot on. Strangely I am not allowed to vote in Germany as a British citizen although I have been paying taxes here for over 25 years, and I am not allowed to vote in Britain although I and my family both paid tax, NI and VAT there for years.

Just another example of how the needs of our populations in Germany and Britain cannot be addressed effectively outside an EU framework.

thebigfredc posted:

If, by your own admission, you don't live here and have no intention to either and therefore contribute nothing in terms of income tax, NI or VAT, then why should you be allowed to vote?

But then by that reasoning ... surely all foreign nationals who live full time in the UK and contribute in terms of income tax, NI and VAT SHOULD have been allowed to vote?

Resurrection posted:

William posted:

Resurrection posted:

 

William, your points are well made. The disparity between the German and U.K. economic models has exasperated me for years. To have the title of Herr Ingeneur is something to be proud of in AustroGerman nations but is downgraded to an oily rag in the U.K. The commitment and pride in being part of a German manufacturing company  can and does mean that the them and us attitude is nowhere near as prevalent in Germany as in the U.K. Germans seem to have faith in their management and not the resentment and distrust that marred and helped to destroy British industry in the post war era. When it comes to large scale manufacturing it has been proven that British workers can deliver for foreign management as evidenced with Toyota, Nissan, BMW Mini and even Jaguar Land Rover, but not so good if left to our own devices. 

Where we have Oases of excellence is in entrepreneurial design and development e.g. F1 and even NASCAR design, chip design by companies like ARM, now gobbled up by a dodgy Japanese bloke who would never be allowed to repeat the process in Japan, and aerospace design and manufacturing. In the privately owned sector JC Bamford stands proud but I guarantee if it ever went public it would be swallowed and gone in no time at all. We do not really respect or protect our homegrown companies. Blimey, even Naim was swallowed by Focal and you will find couched foreign ownership amongst many old longstanding British HiFi companies. We are too open to plundering.

I am divorcing my comments from our European debate as the faults are inherent within our society, its politicians, its Establishment and educational values. For a rampant right winger I think you will also see that I hold what some may interpret or misinterpret as Socialist views. Worthless wastes of ideological spaces such as Corbyn or Cameron could not define or remotely deliver a constructive plan for a successful Britain. Cameron lives in a world of media and public relations while Corbyn cannot find time to talk of anything other than the NHS or the public sector which both rely on earned and tax paid moneys - not money trees.

Crikey. I find myself nodding at a lot of this too!

In particular: the undervaluing of engineering skills in the UK; the often poor senior management in the UK; the ridiculous salaries and bonuses of the top private sector bosses in the UK.  

But......just to get back on track......I wouldn't lay the blame for any of those ills on the EU. We'll still have them when we've left.