Are we sleep-walking out of Europe ?

William posted:

Ray, HMack is spot on. Strangely I am not allowed to vote in Germany as a British citizen although I have been paying taxes here for over 25 years, and I am not allowed to vote in Britain although I and my family both paid tax, NI and VAT there for years.

Just another example of how the needs of our populations in Germany and Britain cannot be addressed effectively outside an EU framework.

25 years is nothing compared with the 2 million or so disenfranchised Turkish Guestworkers in Germany, some of whom are third generation Turks born in Germany as were there parents whereas British nationality is usually contingent on being born here.

The German laws and nationality can be made flexible though if you happen to be any good at footie ie Ozill, Kaderia etc

Eloise posted:

Resurrection posted:

I am divorcing my comments from our European debate as the faults are inherent within our society, its politicians, its Establishment and educational values. For a rampant right winger I think you will also see that I hold what some may interpret or misinterpret as Socialist views. Worthless wastes of ideological spaces such as Corbyn or Cameron could not define or remotely deliver a constructive plan for a successful Britain. Cameron lives in a world of media and public relations while Corbyn cannot find time to talk of anything other than the NHS or the public sector which both rely on earned and tax paid moneys - not money trees.

I'm not sure you can lay the blame for these failures at the feet of individuals or politicians generally.  As a nation we demand somewhat ideological, polarised stances from our politician.  Our media will never look at nuances and require yes/no answers to questions which are complex.

Now if the media are leading that way of thinking, or if they simple reflect the demands of the populous I'm unsure ... the 144 character twitter generation can hardly be helping.

The failings of industry and the Us vs Them attitude that prevails is just (IMO) a continuing demonstration that class and the class divide is still alive and well in the UK.

PS. I can re-asure you no one would misinterpret those views as being in any way socialist.   :-)

Got to be quick, Eloise, as a I need to hit the pub after a stressful day!!!!  I agree with 100% of what you say. How's about that! ????

fatcat posted:

This weeks Mash Report had an entertaining take on Brexit.

https://www.facebook.com/theda...os/1466526990123131/

 

Funny, often accurate, and depressing, all at the same time.  The official replies from DEXEU are particularly shameful. 

thebigfredc posted:

William posted:

Ray, HMack is spot on. Strangely I am not allowed to vote in Germany as a British citizen although I have been paying taxes here for over 25 years, and I am not allowed to vote in Britain although I and my family both paid tax, NI and VAT there for years.

Just another example of how the needs of our populations in Germany and Britain cannot be addressed effectively outside an EU framework.

25 years is nothing compared with the 2 million or so disenfranchised Turkish Guestworkers in Germany, some of whom are third generation Turks born in Germany as were there parents whereas British nationality is usually contingent on being born here.

The German laws and nationality can be made flexible though if you happen to be any good at footie ie Ozill, Kaderia etc

Although I agree that many potential voters are disenfranchised all over Europe, on a technical point anyone 18 years or over and born and resident in Germany is entitled to German nationality and may vote.

Been listening to TM's speech today ... it strikes me though that she says about still wanting to be close to and a large part of "Europe" - the problem is that the best way to be close to and part of the EU is to be a member of the EU.  If you want to go alone, then you have to go alone.

What the prime minister set out today seams to be the worst of all worlds.

PS. did anyone else notice Robert Peston doesn't know who he works for ... he announced he was "Robert Peston BBC".

The speech was talked-up as 'big reveal' but from the bits I've heard, while there was some welcome recognition of some of the trickier issues, I expected more substance.    

Eloise posted:

What the prime minister set out today seams to be the worst of all worlds.

I would agree that TM has a large wardrobe of bizarre clothing, but what was she wearing today? Trousers with neat seams?

TM's teacup?

I think that reducing TM to sneers at her appearance is unfortunate, and wildly misses the genuine importance of the politics of the moment.

I'm all for a modicum of ad hominem jibes about politicians (Gove looks like Pob, BJ has ridiculous hair, etc). But concentrating on female politicians' dress or facial hair (which is a new one on me) without engaging with what they say is too reductive.

Let's keep the humour, where appropriate, satirical rather than sexist.

Dave***t posted:

I think that reducing TM to sneers at her appearance is unfortunate, and wildly misses the genuine importance of the politics of the moment.

I'm all for a modicum of ad hominem jibes about politicians (Gove looks like Pob, BJ has ridiculous hair, etc). But concentrating on female politicians' dress or facial hair (which is a new one on me) without engaging with what they say is too reductive.

Let's keep the humour, where appropriate, satirical rather than sexist.

TM is a refined lady with impeccable taste. There is the possibility that she may find that cup design to be particularly attractive and functional. The image that I posted was not intended to induce any sexist connotations but rather to provoke our opinion of whether she would use it. I can understand how it may have been mistrued but I appreciate your initial concerns.

The speech wasn’t that interesting, but what was interesting was Mr Mogg’s reaction to it. He said something along the lines of, people must realise they won’t get everything they want. Presumably he now realises HE won’t get everything he wants. Hopefully he’s come to realise, if he’s not careful he won’t get anything he wants.

fatcat posted:

The speech wasn’t that interesting, but what was interesting was Mr Mogg’s reaction to it. He said something along the lines of, people must realise they won’t get everything they want. Presumably he now realises HE won’t get everything he wants. Hopefully he’s come to realise, if he’s not careful he won’t get anything he wants.

 

Ah JRM, now there's a decent chap, he should go far! Not like that Turbine fellow, or whatever, I think he should just go forth and multiply, although it's a little late for him to catch up on JRM's fecundity.

I did have to admire that after 12 months, Theresa May has finally got the message from Bernier et al. that there are “hard facts” that both sides have to accept.

Eloise posted:

I did have to admire that after 12 months, Theresa May has finally got the message from Bernier et al. that there are “hard facts” that both sides have to accept.

The hard fact is that we are going to have a pretty hard Brexit. The longer this game of charades goes on the more inevitable it becomes. If the EU continue their baiting of May in the hope that she will be forced to go to the country and a newly reformed Corbyn will be returned then they are asking for even more trouble. Corbyn hates the EU with a vengeance but sees it as an expedient way to gain power. Fawn around with the EU until we drop out then hope that May and the Conservatives carry the can for the newly embittered British electorate, sweep to magisterial power and rule the Socialist Republic of the UK for the next thousand years. He will, unfortunately, no longer need the services of the EU. His political horizons are limited to the Unions, his masters, the NHS, always good for tugging heart strings and the public services. Oh, and a woman called Dawn from Islington.

Unfortunately the EU is nothing but a political monster now and true practicalities like trade and neighbourliness take a lowly second place. As far as Selmayr, Juncker et al are concerned the U.K. deserves a good kicking as an example to other upstart nations. Pity we are taking a big slice of their budget with us.

I don't think Herr Corbyn has any intentions of forming the "Fourth Reich".

Huge posted:

I don't think Herr Corbyn has any intentions of forming the "Fourth Reich".

2 - 0 to the moderator for using the wrong language i.e. French or German. Can keep this up all day long as I'm snowed in.

Resurrection posted:

Huge posted:

I don't think Herr Corbyn has any intentions of forming the "Fourth Reich".

2 - 0 to the moderator for using the wrong language i.e. French or German. Can keep this up all day long as I'm snowed in.

Bah! Forgot what I was going to say, but I assure you it was prescient and very, very funny! ????

Resurrection posted:

Resurrection posted:

Huge posted:

I don't think Herr Corbyn has any intentions of forming the "Fourth Reich".

2 - 0 to the moderator for using the wrong language i.e. French or German. Can keep this up all day long as I'm snowed in.

Bah! Forgot what I was going to say, but I assure you it was prescient and very, very funny! ????

OK, that's quite funny!  

Huge posted:

OK, that's quite funny!  

Yes, it’s all becoming very amusing.

Mr Mogg attempting to put a brave face on the situation. He’s turned into a shadow of his former self. Who’d have thought that was possible.

The brexiteers are now doing far more moaning and bleating about brexit than the so called remoaners ever did.

Resurrection posted:

Unfortunately the EU is nothing but a political monster now and true practicalities like trade and neighbourliness take a lowly second place.

You’ve got that the wrong way around.

Everybody concerned about trade, nobody’s concerned about the leadership of the EU. The average mackem knows nothing about EU politics, but they do want their Nissan factory to stay open.

fatcat posted:

Huge posted:

OK, that's quite funny!  

Yes, it’s all becoming very amusing.

Mr Mogg attempting to put a brave face on the situation. He’s turned into a shadow of his former self. Who’d have thought that was possible.

The brexiteers are now doing far more moaning a about brexit than the so called remoaners ever did.

Blimey that's rich! You've obviously had some frommage in your ears when listening to Soubry, Major, Blair, Mandelson, Hesseltine, never mind Verhofstadt, Juncker, Selmayr and the Barnier creature! The exit is getting harder and harder with every malignant moan! 

fatcat posted:

Resurrection posted:

Unfortunately the EU is nothing but a political monster now and true practicalities like trade and neighbourliness take a lowly second place.

You’ve got that the wrong way around.

Everybody concerned about trade, nobody’s concerned about the leadership of the EU. The average mackem knows nothing about EU politics, but they do want their Nissan factory to stay open.

 

Wayaye Bonnie Laddie, Nissan's gangin' nowhere!

(I could do it much better in a Scottish accent }

Resurrection posted:

fatcat posted:

Huge posted:

OK, that's quite funny!  

Yes, it’s all becoming very amusing.

Mr Mogg attempting to put a brave face on the situation. He’s turned into a shadow of his former self. Who’d have thought that was possible.

The brexiteers are now doing far more moaning a about brexit than the so called remoaners ever did.

Blimey that's rich! You've obviously had some frommage in your ears when listening to Soubry, Major, Blair, Mandelson, Hesseltine, never mind Verhofstadt, Juncker, Selmayr and the Barnier creature! The exit is getting harder and harder with every malignant moan! 

More like I don't have a problem differentiating sensible constructive advice from inane moaning and bleating.

fatcat posted:

Resurrection posted:

fatcat posted:

Huge posted:

OK, that's quite funny!  

Yes, it’s all becoming very amusing.

Mr Mogg attempting to put a brave face on the situation. He’s turned into a shadow of his former self. Who’d have thought that was possible.

The brexiteers are now doing far more moaning a about brexit than the so called remoaners ever did.

Blimey that's rich! You've obviously had some frommage in your ears when listening to Soubry, Major, Blair, Mandelson, Hesseltine, never mind Verhofstadt, Juncker, Selmayr and the Barnier creature! The exit is getting harder and harder with every malignant moan! 

More like I don't have a problem differentiating sensible constructive advice from inane moaning and bleating.

Ha! Ha! I obviously forgot to mention the blinkers you are wearing as well!