Are we sleep-walking out of Europe ?

George Fredrik Fiske posted:

We are not a highly influential player today in the EU, and never will be. France and Germany reserved that position for themselves from the very start.We are still a late entering player, and will forever be treated so. 

 

Influence is proportional to one's commitment in community affairs. 

Its like in this forum: regular contributors have a higher ranking than others.

MDS posted:

George Fredrik Fiske posted:

Our economic position in the World becomes no different in the medium and long term with or without the EU.

ATB from George

That doesn't seem to be the view of many major UK businesses and business organisations. 

It is in my view fortunate that the all employees of these companies - rather than just the ones on the boards of directors - are able to vote in the referendum.

ATB from George

jfritzen posted:

George Fredrik Fiske posted:

We are not a highly influential player today in the EU, and never will be. France and Germany reserved that position for themselves from the very start.We are still a late entering player, and will forever be treated so. 

 

Influence is proportional to one's commitment in community affairs. 

Its like in this forum: regular contributors have a higher ranking than others.

Given that the UK has never wanted “ever closer political union” with the EEC/EU, the UK’s position is inimical to a basic tenet of the EU. 

We, in the UK, constitute an unsuitable EU partner at a fundamental level because of this, and thus can never make the kind of contribution to EU affairs that would allow the UK the influence that we in the UK would think is a useful contribution. This is not going to change in the foreseeable future.

According to your choice of words there is only one way to make for greater harmony between the UK and the EU, and this is to leave.

Co-opperation can then be based on both parties gaining the maximum possible from working together while each has a policy on “ever closer political union” which best suits each party ...

ATB from George

George Fredrik Fiske posted:

Given that the UK has never wanted “ever closer political union” with the EEC/EU, the UK’s position is inimical to a basic tenet of the EU. 

 

Has this ever been tested? I see political union as a good thing.

The referendum presents an opportunity that will be wasted. Instead of a single yes/no question there could be a small range of questions asking the population about the future shape of the relationship. But maybe that would be too much like democracy.

Bananahead posted:

George Fredrik Fiske posted:

Given that the UK has never wanted “ever closer political union” with the EEC/EU, the UK’s position is inimical to a basic tenet of the EU. 

 

Has this ever been tested? I see political union as a good thing.

The referendum presents an opportunity that will be wasted. Instead of a single yes/no question there could be a small range of questions asking the population about the future shape of the relationship. But maybe that would be too much like democracy.

Your concept might seem attractive, but the situation is as it is, ie a single vote, "In" or "Out". Simple.

Let's face it, most of the people who are going to vote are basically simple-minded, short-sighted and totally ignorant of the issues at stake. Don't confuse them with more options

Having watched a bit of "Any Questions" last night, it seemed to me as if people think we are voting as if this referendum were a general elections.

We are not voting for individual politicians whom we can vote out in five years time if we don't like what they do.

If we vote to stay "In", we could hold another referendum in (say) five years time if we don't like the way the EU is developing.

If we vote to leave, and then do leave, that would be more-or-less for ever.

Don Atkinson posted:

 

Let's face it, most of the people who are going to vote are basically simple-minded, short-sighted and totally ignorant of the issues at stake. Don't confuse them with more options

Much as I would like it to be otherwise, I fear you are right, Don

Don,

I think I'm somewhat aligned with you in that I have no foundation of knowledge on which to base a judgement as to whether we would be better in or out of the EU.  What I find worrying is that nobody else does either and yet the two camps (especially the out camp) vociferously support their view that we would be far far better outside the EU without seemingly to articulate why.  It also strikes me that there is a strong generational element in play here.  My Mother who was born in 1938 and all of her friends seem to utterly oppose the idea of being part of anything to do with Europe - they don't like the French, don't trust the Germans and have a little Englander mentality that sees us returning to come kind of golden age as epitomised in the Dirk Bogarde/Terry Thomas/James Robertson justice era!  If that cinematic reality were on offer we'd probably all vote for it, but sadly I believe it's an illusion.  My own generation of 40-somethings seem to be rather more divided and to be honest I think the instagram generation either don't care or inherently see Britain as just being a tiny island in a global world where petty boundaries, territories and political organisations have little meaning.  To them the planet is just like university - a huge melting pot of different cultures and people who they plan to work alongside, meet, collaborate with and discover.  They see boatloads of immigrants and inherently feel the right thing to do is to save them and offer them a home because we're all one planet and these people have skills and abilities which will enable them to join our great melting pot of a nation.

I have to admit I find the latter approach somewhat refreshing and can foresee a time hundreds of years from now where we're simply one planet, one nation and one civilisation.  I wish that was something all of us could live to see...  It sounds rather Star Trek, a United federation of planets working for the good of all mankind but I think it will happen.

I spend my day criss crossing Europe as a pilot and only last night pondered how nice it was in Dusseldorf where we were staying the night to be met by our German driver with a welcoming smile at the aircraft steps, driven to the airport gatehouse where a piece of paper was handed over by the Captain and we were then driven straight to the front door of our hotel.  No passports, no waiting in line, no immigration queues.  How refreshing and indeed London Heathrow could learn a lot from our German friends... 

Many of the issues we face now - pollution, tax evasion by multinationals, famine, war in the Middle East will require the EU, nato, Riussia, China to act collectively to address them.  If anything we need our partners now more than ever to make a meaningful contribution.  As an example if we really want to clamp down on the likes of Apple, Amazon, Google etc evading taxes we need to penalise those nations acting as tax havens for them.  I can't see how Britain acting individually could ever have a hope of tackling that whereas the EU can meet the USA as an equal partner and broker a solution.

While I don't really like feeling as if we have no control of our borders and would favour an Australian points based system (except in cases of humanitarian need) overall I feel that the EU has done so much to bring the people of Europe together and to understand each other better.   It's also legislated to ensure proper work life balance, paternity leave for Fathers etc - all of which has tended to slow the worst excesses of corporate greed with its zero hours contracts and excessive working hours. 

Perhaps Carl Sagan said it best in his commentary on earth - the pale blue dot:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p86BPM1GV8M

jonathan

There has been precious little light amongst the heat of the Euro debate so far. It has evolved on predictable lines and feels too much like a referendum on the 'establishment' vs the 'rebels' for my liking.

Two particular areas of uncertainty strike me.

The first is the actual leaving process. Apparently this would take a minimum 2 year re-negotiation at the end of which we have no idea what actual relationship we will have with Europe. We also have no idea how that debate takes place, who will lead it from the UK and no idea what organisations and legal structures we will have to create ourselves as an independent nation.

The more vague worry is how our exit will affect the attitude of the European powers towards us. Will they just shrug, say not much has changed really and carry on regardless or will they passively or indeed actively exclude us from their business and their thoughts?

Bruce

Clip from the Office for National Statistics, 1999 to 2014:

Faster growth in the value of UK imports compared to exports with the EU has resulted in the UK’s overall trade balance with the EU deteriorating (value of imports exceeding exports), with the trade deficit widening notably, reaching £61.6 billion in 2014 compared with £11.2 billion in 1999, as shown by the black dotted line in Figure 2.

UK trade with the EU is dominated by goods rather than services; in 2014, trade in goods represented close to two-thirds of all UK exports to the EU, and over three-quarters of total UK imports from the EU. Between 1999 and 2014, goods imported by the UK from the EU have risen by 4.9% per year on average, compared to exports which have risen by 2.5% per year, causing the UK’s trade in goods deficit with the EU to rise to £77.0 billion.

Although the UK has historically recorded a trade in goods deficit with the EU, its trade in services balance with the EU is much more favourable, running a surplus in each year since 2005, which reached £15.4 billion in 2014.

Cheers,

OW

jonathan,

Nice write up. You've identified some key issues and I think the "In" campaigners could follow your lead ie outlining these and otherpositive benefits of being an integral part of the EU. For example, you mention proper work/life balances. The working time directive has been in place for a decade but I doubt if the average working person recalls how this came about.

You mention criss-crossing Europe. We had Lee Allinson here a couple of weeks ago and before that Rob Hurst, both of whom mentioned that you have moved on to the European part of a bigger airline. Small world !

Hungryhalibut posted:

Really, we'll see. If we leave there will be five to ten years of economic chaos as the pound falls, investment crashes and unemployment soars. But if that has-been Thatcher lap dog Lord Lawson says it's OK, then clearly there's nothing to worry about. 

And if we stay? The problem has already been stated in previous posts. Where does the truth really lie? That is the one thing the majority of voters will sadly never get to know.

But your opinion as stated is absolute, honest, perfect, and unbiased, isn't it?

George (*) has decided to prepare some custard pies to throw at David Cameron, Jeremy Corbyn and Nicola Sturgeon at their first joint “Let’s Stay” rally next week which kicks off in Warsaw.

He has decided that the best British Custard Pie has a volume of 1000cm³ (sorry George, but I think we might still be stuck with this half-hearted European metric system whether we are In or Out !). The baking tin will be circular, diameter “d” and “t” tall.

George naturally wishes to economise on the Welsh tin-plate he needs to use in the fabrication of the baking tin. Given that the cost is the same per sqcm regardless of the shape, he decides to buy two pieces, one circular (for the base) and the other, rectangular (for the circumference).

Ignoring overlaps for the joints, how much tin-plate will he need to buy as a minimum and what dimensions should he order for each of the two pieces ?

(*) All names are entirely fictional and any resemblance to real people either dead or alive is entirely co-incidental ........................

Oooppps !! Wrong thread.....I'll post a copy in the "Brain Teasers ? Or 50 Years Ago ?" thread

Don Atkinson posted:

 

George naturally wishes to economise on the Welsh tin-plate he needs to use in the fabrication of the baking tin.

Is he okay using Teflon coating... DuPont is American after all...

Jonathan has a very good point above.  The older generation have this view of Britain they got from propaganda pieces in the movies, newspapers and radio.  Back in the day there was one TV channel that only went on to 11.30 at night.  Not many radio stations, people bought one newspaper and that was it.  They got their world view from that narrow selection and it tended to put out content that could only be described as propaganda with an air of cultural superiority.  Johnny Foreigner was rubbish because it was Britain that won the war.  The BBC poured out culturally superior piece after culturally superior piece and the public lapped it up. 

In many ways this older generation are like many Americans, the type who believe all the hype about the USA they get from the movies and know nothing else about the world we live in.

The younger generations, with the help of the internet, have friends all over the world.  They get their news and current affairs from outlets all over the world and don't have to rely on one channel, one newspaper and the cinema.  They've grown up alongside people of different cultures, and don't see what the fuss is about.  They are less likely to buy into casual supremacism too.

Eloise posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

 

George naturally wishes to economise on the Welsh tin-plate he needs to use in the fabrication of the baking tin.

Is he okay using Teflon coating... DuPont is American after all...

Éleuthère Irénée du Pont was born in Paris and founded the company the 1800's.  Pre EU right enough!

Jota posted:

Jonathan has a very good point above.  The older generation have this view of Britain they got from propaganda pieces in the movies, newspapers and radio.  Back in the day there was one TV channel that only went on to 11.30 at night.  Not many radio stations, people bought one newspaper and that was it.  They got their world view from that narrow selection and it tended to put out content that could only be described as propaganda with an air of cultural superiority.  Johnny Foreigner was rubbish because it was Britain that won the war.  The BBC poured out culturally superior piece after culturally superior piece and the public lapped it up. 

In many ways this older generation are like many Americans, the type who believe all the hype about the USA they get from the movies and know nothing else about the world we live in.

The younger generations, with the help of the internet, have friends all over the world.  They get their news and current affairs from outlets all over the world and don't have to rely on one channel, one newspaper and the cinema.  They've grown up alongside people of different cultures, and don't see what the fuss is about.  They are less likely to buy into casual supremacism too.

 

Please define "Older generation" as referred to in the above assessment.

Cheers, Don

Jota posted:

............................The older generation have this view of Britain they got from propaganda pieces in the movies, newspapers and radio.  Back in the day there was one TV channel that only went on to 11.30 at night.  Not many radio stations, people bought one newspaper and that was it.  They got their world view from that narrow selection and it tended to put out content that could only be described as propaganda with an air of cultural superiority.  Johnny Foreigner was rubbish because it was Britain that won the war.  The BBC poured out culturally superior piece after culturally superior piece and the public lapped it up. 

 

If by "the older generation" you mean people aged 80 and over, you might have a point in suggesting that a greater proportion might vote OUT compared to younger generations. But your reasons for suggesting why they might vote Out are well wide of the mark, based on my aquaintences. Most of them simply consider that the UK can look after itself just as easily outside the EU and they would prefer not to be burdened with EU bureaucracy. Whether they are correct in their considerations is another matter, but I don't see that as any more problematic than other groups of people. None of us can be absolutely certain of how thing will pan out in future.

There are only 3 million over 80's in the UK and many of these won't vote. So not a large demographic, assuming that ALL the more "enlightened" youngsters turn up to vote "In"

If by "the older generation" you mean people aged 65 and over, then I would say you are well wide of the mark concerning their voting intentions as well as their reasons. Of course I am in that age group. My circle of friends and work-mates have a much broader based upbringing that your post suggests. Many of us have lived and worked overseas and maintain life-long friendships with the local poeple that we shared those early working years with. Your outline of the availability of TV channels and newspaper selection together with proaganda isn't necessarily wrong, but I don't see too many people adopting or retaining such "values" today. And certainly not planning to vote on that basis.

I will add that whatever the result, I am happy accept it. I may wish to emigrate in the time of retirement, but that will be no loss for the UK!

Best wishes from George

Emigrate ?

Where to ?

Norway? 

I am directly decended from the first King of the United Norway for a start!

I doubt that there are many rules against me going to Norway, considering that Romanians go there without challenge and my mother [died 2000] was born there! I would be very poor in their economy, but would eat and keep a roof. Who could ask for more?

I could even listen to BBC on the internet!

Best from G

George Fredrik Fiske posted:

Norway? 

I am directly decended from the first King of the United Norway for a start!

I doubt that there are many rules against me going to Norway, considering that Romanians go there without challenge and my mother [died 2000] was born there! I would be very poor in their economy, but would eat and keep a roof. Who could ask for more?

I could even listen to BBC on the internet!

Best from G

Given the morals of the typical European royal family I'd suggest there are many others who'd claim this same dubious celebrity.

That was tongue in cheek!

ATB from George

Security:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-35600736

War within the EU and outside; there's NATO plus the memory of two World Wars and an understanding of the destructive capability of current weapons.

How did the Community perform with Yugoslavia?

Cheers,

OW

The Queen seems to think "Out" is the way to go.

I am surprised. I would have thought with her German heritage, and Philip's Greek background, plus all her uncles and her aunts being spread throughout Europe, she would have wanted them all to be "In". As per one big happy family................................