Are we sleep-walking out of Europe ?

My recollection is that Government has promised MPs a "meaningful" vote concerning any deal prior to leaving the EU. Is my recollection correct and is this promise still on the table ?

Does anybody know what "motion" will be debated by MPs with regard to the above meaningful vote ? Might it involve multiple motions ?

Given a further demonstration in London in favour of a People's Vote (or referendum) on any deal to leave, what sort of wording is being proposed on the (hypothetical)  ballot paper ? eg

Accept the Deal and Leave the EU   v   Continue full membership of the EU

or

Accept the Deal and Leave the EU   v   Reject the Deal and leave the EU

Don Atkinson posted:

Given a further demonstration in London in favour of a People's Vote (or referendum) on any deal to leave, what sort of wording is being proposed on the (hypothetical)  ballot paper ? eg

Accept the Deal and Leave the EU   v   Continue full membership of the EU

or

Accept the Deal and Leave the EU   v   Reject the Deal and leave the EU

Given the crew who are leading up this “People’s Vote”  it would appear that the last thing  this self serving bunch represent is the People. You can fool some of the people..,. These are the sand ones that think of he word ‘populist’ is a swear word.

If TM doesn’t secure the backing of Parliament tomorrow in respect of Syria, might this undermine her authority in other matters, including Brexit, where here support is, at best, somewhat tenuous ?

Hmm.. there is going to be a somewhat big balls up coming . Not just Brexit - but Nexit,  Rushit,  and god damm fuxit.

someone needs their **** kicked in

The follow-up to the PM's decision to attack Syria without a debate in Parliament will be an interesting one.  I'm sure she'll base her argument on the justification for the military action. But if it was justified, why not consult Parliament before taking action? The obvious retort will be because she wanted to support the White House decision. This episode could erode the PM's authority still further, which won't help her get the Brexit legislation through Parliament.

Don Atkinson posted:

If TM doesn’t secure the backing of Parliament tomorrow in respect of Syria, might this undermine her authority in other matters, including Brexit, where here support is, at best, somewhat tenuous ?

Don, I have to agree with you that support for Brexit in and around Westminster is tenuous but we have known that since before the Referendum. Plus ça change plus c'est la mème chose, eh. 

Apart from Putiin helping Assad to gas his own people, we have been used as a playground for chemical warfare by Putin as well. Does he have to actually slabber some of it on your door handle before you feel he might just be a bit of a threat to all of us? Nasty old world out there and our politicians, both Labour and Conservative, have invited a rather disturbing amount of shady characters to come  and live here as long as they had plenty money to throw around. What could possibly go wrong?  

Something about the whole "meaningful vote" thing has struck me recently: Theresa May's mantra is that "no deal is better than a bad deal" and that if there was the option to reverse Brexit with a vote on the final deal it would encourage the EU to offer only a bad deal so that the UK will remain "by the back door" (as she would put it) ... but the same philosophy applies to Theresa May's offering to UK MPs.

Given that most MPs believe that any deal is likely better than a bad deal (despite the UK Gov. mantra)... she is able to offer only a bad deal knowing they have to vote FOR it to avoid the worse option (WTO rules).

On a related not she is right (in her words) that “no deal is better than a bad deal” because (imo of course) all deals on offer are BAD deals!  Not quite sure that’s what she meant though!

Another casualty from Brexit - Jaguar to cut production and not renew contracts for 1,000 temp workers due to the uncertainty of Brexit.

Frank Yang posted:

Another casualty from Brexit - Jaguar to cut production and not renew contracts for 10,000 temp workers due to the uncertainty of Brexit.

Come on be honest it’s not JUST the uncertainty of Brexit.  It’s also down to the uncertainty over government policy in diesel cars!

Frank Yang posted:

Another casualty from Brexit - Jaguar to cut production and not renew contracts for 10,000 temp workers due to the uncertainty of Brexit.

How about them being casualties of the new taxes on vehicles over £40,000 and after being marched up the hill of diesel by Labour, we are now told it is nasty and nasty taxes have been imposed to discourage us from buying them. Surprisingly, the British public has half wakened to all of this and stopped buying new cars. 

Ascmost f Land ariver's priduction is diesel and over £40,000 you can hardly blame Brexit when it is our own politicians who have slaughtered the golden goose. I bet Soubry, Clark, Corbyn et al were happy to virtue signal their approval of the job destroying taxes. 

Eloise posted:

Frank Yang posted:

Another casualty from Brexit - Jaguar to cut production and not renew contracts for 10,000 temp workers due to the uncertainty of Brexit.

Come on be honest it’s not JUST the uncertainty of Brexit.  It’s also down to the uncertainty over government policy in diesel cars!

Just what I was going to say. Well, not so much uncertainty. Diesel has a role for high mileage, like lorries. But.... what about trains for freight!

Phil

yes, that diesel reason as well, but it is already the writing on the wall, so obvious.

Filipe posted:

Just what I was going to say. Well, not so much uncertainty. Diesel has a role for high mileage, like lorries. But.... what about trains for freight!

Diesel arguably has a role for general motoring for the high mileage... its main “problem” is in town/city usage.  Probably impossible now but I (maybe naively) always imagined a (plug in) hybrid diesel / electric would be a good design subject to it being capable of 25-30mile all electric range which was (somehow) enforced in urban environs, switching to diesel for the longer runs.

I’m worried that like “we” jumped on the diesel bandwagon in the mid 90s to the detriment of health, we’re gonna jump off the bandwagon and just create other problems.

MDS posted:

The follow-up to the PM's decision to attack Syria without a debate in Parliament will be an interesting one.  I'm sure she'll base her argument on the justification for the military action. But if it was justified, why not consult Parliament before taking action? The obvious retort will be because she wanted to support the White House decision. This episode could erode the PM's authority still further, which won't help her get the Brexit legislation through Parliament.

Did she want to support Trump or was she forced too.

It's hard to imagine Trump didn't point out we're desperate for a trade deal with the USA, when asking for support.

Resurrection posted:

I bet Soubry, Clark, Corbyn et al were happy to virtue signal their approval of the job destroying taxes. 

In 2017: 80% of JLR output was exported abroad.  What what influence do British Taxes (on buying cars) have on those exports?

Eloise posted:

Resurrection posted:

I bet Soubry, Clark, Corbyn et al were happy to virtue signal their approval of the job destroying taxes. 

In 2017: 80% of JLR output was exported abroad.  What what influence do British Taxes (on buying cars) have on those exports?

Eloise,  have you not  noticed the nose dive in car sales in the U.K. due to political tax meddling as well as the purge on diesel? In addition you might also not have noticed but Brexit has not happened yet. Trade conditions remain exactly the same as before we voted to Leave. The demonising of diesel has destabilised the car market whether you approve or not.

Don Atkinson posted:

Given a further demonstration in London in favour of a People's Vote (or referendum) on any deal to leave, what sort of wording is being proposed on the (hypothetical)  ballot paper ? eg

Accept the Deal and Leave the EU   v   Continue full membership of the EU

or

Accept the Deal and Leave the EU   v   Reject the Deal and leave the EU

Looks very suspiciously like a kudos vote for bonkers Brexit

In theory they only need to print 17,400,000 vote slips  

The getting of a Really Hard Brexit  

or

A Brexit that's going to be Really Hard 

Resurrection posted:

Eloise posted:

Resurrection posted:

I bet Soubry, Clark, Corbyn et al were happy to virtue signal their approval of the job destroying taxes. 

In 2017: 80% of JLR output was exported abroad.  What what influence do British Taxes (on buying cars) have on those exports?

Eloise,  have you not  noticed the nose dive in car sales in the U.K. due to political tax meddling as well as the purge on diesel? In addition you might also not have noticed but Brexit has not happened yet. Trade conditions remain exactly the same as before we voted to Leave. The demonising of diesel has destabilised the car market whether you approve or not.

Exactly, Brexit hasn’t happened yet.  But equally “Soubury, Clark, Corbyn, etc.” have no influence over forigen taxes nor the “anti-Diesel” rhetoric.

Frank Yang posted:

Another casualty from Brexit - Jaguar to cut production and not renew contracts for 1,000 temp workers due to the uncertainty of Brexit.

In fact, JLR have lagged behind in their not investing in hybrid/electric technology. And, couple this with the punitive RFL increases that came into effect this month, was a perfect recipe for them to hold back production. Brexit is fast becoming the whipping boy for every UK malaise

GTB-Buckaroo posted:

Frank Yang posted:

Another casualty from Brexit - Jaguar to cut production and not renew contracts for 1,000 temp workers due to the uncertainty of Brexit.

In fact, JLR have lagged behind in their not investing in hybrid/electric technology. And, couple this with the punitive RFL increases that came into effect this month, was a perfect recipe for them to hold back production. Brexit is fast becoming the whipping boy for every UK malaise

VW have nearly 300,000 unsold diesel vehicles stored in the USA I don't think you can blame that on Brexit also it is not just diesels that have been subject to tax changes this month.

Pcd posted:

GTB-Buckaroo posted:

Frank Yang posted:

Another casualty from Brexit - Jaguar to cut production and not renew contracts for 1,000 temp workers due to the uncertainty of Brexit.

In fact, JLR have lagged behind in their not investing in hybrid/electric technology. And, couple this with the punitive RFL increases that came into effect this month, was a perfect recipe for them to hold back production. Brexit is fast becoming the whipping boy for every UK malaise

VW have nearly 300,000 unsold diesel vehicles stored in the USA I don't think you can blame that on Brexit also it is not just diesels that have been subject to tax changes this month.

 

And of course the government never thought we would notice the punitive action on diesels or vehicles over £40,000. They, thepoliticians, may fool themselves all of the time but the public does wake up now and again and reacts. Anyone for a global recession? 

GTB-Buckaroo posted:

In fact, JLR have lagged behind in their not investing in hybrid/electric technology. And, couple this with the punitive RFL increases that came into effect this month, was a perfect recipe for them to hold back production. Brexit is fast becoming the whipping boy for every UK malaise

Which have no effect on the 80% of vehicles JLR export!!

Eloise posted:

GTB-Buckaroo posted:

In fact, JLR have lagged behind in their not investing in hybrid/electric technology. And, couple this with the punitive RFL increases that came into effect this month, was a perfect recipe for them to hold back production. Brexit is fast becoming the whipping boy for every UK malaise

Which have no effect on the 80% of vehicles JLR export!!

Agree that JLR behind the curve in terms of hybridisation - though their new I-Pace looks like a credible Tesla SUV alternative. However, this is being built in Austria (and in future in a joint venture in China). I'm sure that Tata (the Indian company who own JLR) will have looked at options to manufacture abroad as a way of minimising risk associated with Brexit - though obviously the Chinese venture is a reflection of the fact that access can only be gained to the Chinese market through these joint ventures (much to Donald Trump's chagrin). 

Interesting to note that Rolls Royce have also invested significantly in moving production to Singapore - see this from Aviation Week:

"The engine-maker recently announced that the Singapore facility would assemble the Trent 7000, the engine that will power the Airbus A330neo. This is a significant development, because Rolls-Royce Singapore will also be helping to develop the engine. Previously, all engine development was done in Europe, and after Rolls-Royce had successfully tested the engines in the UK, as was the case with the Trent 900 and Trent 1000, production was then transferred to Singapore."

You have to ask yourself why British owned companies such as Rolls are moving production abroad? I'm sure it's not all due to politics (i.e. logistics will be a factor), but equally it is clear that we don't need to be putting up barriers to manufacturing thriving in the UK. Theresa May's decision to bow to the arch Brexiteers in her party by electing to remove the UK from the EU customs union has the potential to cripple British significant sections of our manufacturing base, or what is left of it.  

The following is intended to be slightly satirical...

I’m politically conflicted tonight: should I be cheering that at last some politicians have (IMO) shown some backbone and voted some ammendement which may make Brexit a little less of a disaster -OR- should I (as someone who thinks the HoL needs reforming into a proportionally elected second chamber) be grinding my teeth and complaining about the unelected windbags?