Are we sleep-walking out of Europe ?

Eloise posted:

The following is intended to be slightly satirical...

I’m politically conflicted tonight: should I be cheering that at last some politicians have (IMO) shown some backbone and voted some ammendement which may make Brexit a little less of a disaster -OR- should I (as someone who thinks the HoL needs reforming into a proportionally elected second chamber) be grinding my teeth and complaining about the unelected windbags?

The latter!

You should be grateful for small mercies. I’m no fan of the Lords, but at least they can see beyond each electoral term. 

Eloise posted:

The following is intended to be slightly satirical...

I’m politically conflicted tonight: should I be cheering that at last some politicians have (IMO) shown some backbone and voted some ammendement which may make Brexit a little less of a disaster -OR- should I (as someone who thinks the HoL needs reforming into a proportionally elected second chamber) be grinding my teeth and complaining about the unelected windbags?

I think we should celebrate any outbreak of common sense on Brexit. 

Resurrection posted:

Eloise posted:

The following is intended to be slightly satirical...

I’m politically conflicted tonight: should I be cheering that at last some politicians have (IMO) shown some backbone and voted some ammendement which may make Brexit a little less of a disaster -OR- should I (as someone who thinks the HoL needs reforming into a proportionally elected second chamber) be grinding my teeth and complaining about the unelected windbags?

The latter!

Sorry ... you’re outvoted 2:1 ... democracy rules :-)

Eloise posted:

Resurrection posted:

Eloise posted:

The following is intended to be slightly satirical...

I’m politically conflicted tonight: should I be cheering that at last some politicians have (IMO) shown some backbone and voted some ammendement which may make Brexit a little less of a disaster -OR- should I (as someone who thinks the HoL needs reforming into a proportionally elected second chamber) be grinding my teeth and complaining about the unelected windbags?

The latter!

Sorry ... you’re outvoted 2:1 ... democracy rules :-)

I am never going to accept a Remoaner's idea of democracy or voting! ????

Resurrection posted:

Eloise posted:

Sorry ... you’re outvoted 2:1 ... democracy rules :-)

I am never going to accept a Remoaner's idea of democracy or voting! ????

So you just once more fall back on the old response of trite insults!

Huge posted:

Resurrection posted:

Eloise posted:

Sorry ... you’re outvoted 2:1 ... democracy rules :-)

I am never going to accept a Remoaner's idea of democracy or voting! ????

So you just once more fall back on the old response of trite insults!

Stop being a humourless waste of electrons! ???? 

Then stop being an insulting flow of electrons!  

By the way, I'm not a nuclear free zone; I have neutrons and protons as well as electrons!  

Huge posted:

Then stop being an insulting flow of electrons!  

By the way, I'm not a nuclear free zone; I have neutrons and protons as well as electrons!  

Was talking about your means  of communication! ????

Hopefully HMG will sort their pathetic Windrush immigration scandal    

If not, I rather suspect that the EU will have to spend time getting proper guarantees about the status of their existing residents in the U.K.

Any text drafted by May & Co will need to be picked over with a fine tooth Combe. Can she really be trusted to be straight and honest ?

Lack of forethought and lack of pre-decision assessment still seems to dominate our Brexit scenario.

(That is why I titled this thread "are we sleepwalking.....")

I haven't heard too much serious debate about the benefits of staying within the Customs Union v Leaving.

I don't recall it being at or near the top of the agenda in the run-up to the referendum.

Why is it that a few Erosceptic MPs are able to drive TM to a vote of confidence on this issue rather  than having a rational, open debate with MPs voting in the National Interest ?

The question of remaining within the Customs Union or not has been linked by Brussels to the UK's proposals for a "frictionless border" between the north and south of Ireland.

Their viewpoint is that this "will never work" and are insisting the the UK remain in the Customs Union.

I'm paraphrasing from an article in yesterday's Sunday Times, but the fact is that "no nation, with the exception of Turkey has tolerated being outside the European single market, yet being bound to the EU Customs Union".

The reality is that the concept of a "frictionless border" works perfectly well in the case of Switzerland, which is not a member of the single market, Customs Union, or even the European Economic Area, and has massively more cross border trade than would ever be the case in Ireland. Their chief EU negotiator doesn't see any obstacles to our being able to sort things out on a similar basis, other than, naturally, political ones.

That, it seems to me, is the real issue, in that "the EU does not want Brexit to be straightforward or painless, even when it could be, as that might only encourage other nations to secede also".

The inescapable conclusion, therefore, is that the EU are determined to make these negotiations as difficult as possible, regardless of the solutions staring them in the face, which exist elsewhere.

Don Atkinson posted:

Lack of forethought and lack of pre-decision assessment still seems to dominate our Brexit scenario.

(That is why I titled this thread "are we sleepwalking.....")

I haven't heard too much serious debate about the benefits of staying within the Customs Union v Leaving.

I don't recall it being at or near the top of the agenda in the run-up to the referendum.

Why is it that a few Erosceptic MPs are able to drive TM to a vote of confidence on this issue rather  than having a rational, open debate with MPs voting in the National Interest ?

Ah, you started this never ending saga! Anything that ties into the EU restrctive practices will not constitute leaving as far as I am concerned, nor am I desperately in further discussions about the consequences of my own decision making processes. Me personally, I had a very good idea of what we were escaping and je ne regrette rien! 

dave marshall posted:

The question of remaining within the Customs Union or not has been linked by Brussels to the UK's proposals for a "frictionless border" between the north and south of Ireland.

Their viewpoint is that this "will never work" and are insisting the the UK remain in the Customs Union.

I'm paraphrasing from an article in yesterday's Sunday Times, but the fact is that "no nation, with the exception of Turkey has tolerated being outside the European single market, yet being bound to the EU Customs Union".

The reality is that the concept of a "frictionless border" works perfectly well in the case of Switzerland, which is not a member of the single market, Customs Union, or even the European Economic Area, and has massively more cross border trade than would ever be the case in Ireland. Their chief EU negotiator doesn't see any obstacles to our being able to sort things out on a similar basis, other than, naturally, political ones.

That, it seems to me, is the real issue, in that "the EU does not want Brexit to be straightforward or painless, even when it could be, as that might only encourage other nations to secede also".

The inescapable conclusion, therefore, is that the EU are determined to make these negotiations as difficult as possible, regardless of the solutions staring them in the face, which exist elsewhere.

Hear! Hear!

Another welfare dependent born in the UK this week.

Resurrection posted:

dave marshall posted:

 

The inescapable conclusion, therefore, is that the EU are determined to make these negotiations as difficult as possible, regardless of the solutions staring them in the face, which exist elsewhere.

Hear! Hear!

And sadly, it is the British public who will pay dearly for the pleasure, and for many years to come.

dave marshall posted:

 

The reality is that the concept of a "frictionless border" works perfectly well in the case of Switzerland, which is not a member of the single market, Customs Union, or even the European Economic Area, and has massively more cross border trade than would ever be the case in Ireland.

That's a lovely way of looking at things for those with a pro-Brexit attitude (see Resurrection's endorsement).

Unfortunately it's completely inaccurate.  The Swiss border isn't frictionless.  

Yes, you can enter Switzerland without passport checks.  That's because Switzerland is part of the Schengen area - not something Brexit ultras will accept.  Switzerland also has some of its rules essentially dictated by the EU because it maintains 'full alignment' with EU rules on goods.  That means it is effectively in the EU customs union regardless of its nominal status - not something Brexit ultras will accept.  And there's a hard border for some things because of differing tax arrangements - unclear how that would work with the UK, but potentially it'd imperil the GFA.

There's a FT article from December which explains this.  I can't post a link to it, but it's really easy to find.  Just google 'Switzerland customs EU' and it should be near the top of the results.  It's entitled Brexit: Watch the Swiss border for a warning on trade.

I think I've read somewhere that the British government have assembled a commission of mathematicians which is going to devise a border between EU and UK which at the same time does not separate NI from Ireland. I think the head of the commission is a certain Professor Moebius and the solution is based on non orientable surfaces.

The irony is that the U.K. don’t want to be part of the Customs Union because they see it as seeding control to the EU.  However the two proposals essentially suggest the EU seed Customs Control to U.K. “on trust” ... seeding control to a third country who don’t want to be bound to the ECJ who rule in such things.  Cloud cuckoo land!

Another story which shows the arrogance of the U.K.’s negotiation position came about last week.  The U.K. want the EU to continue to protect the U.K.’s PGI and PDO (protected food designations) in the EU, yet won’t promise to do the same for the EU27’s PGI, PDO and TSG foods.  So (for example) under the proposal the U.K. want EU to protect Scotch Whisky (to stop Japan, Slovakia and India selling spirits branded Scotch) but refuse to prevent USA and Australia selling Champagne.  Double cloud cuckoo land!

jfritzen posted:

I think I've read somewhere that the British government have assembled a commission of mathematicians which is going to devise a border between EU and UK which at the same time does not separate NI from Ireland. I think the head of the commission is a certain Professor Moebius and the solution is based on non orientable surfaces.

The Möbius Proposal.  It's got a nice ring to it, like The Odessa File or The Stanford Prison Experiment.  Or The Lucifer Effect.

Eloise posted:

The irony is that the U.K. don’t want to be part of the Customs Union because they see it as seeding control to the EU.  However the two proposals essentially suggest the EU seed Customs Control to U.K. “on trust” ... seeding control to a third country who don’t want to be bound to the ECJ who rule in such things.  Cloud cuckoo land!!

BTW, and this not meaning to be critical, nor to divert the thread, but the word is cede not seed.

Innocent Bystander posted:

BTW, and this not meaning to be critical, nor to divert the thread, but the word is cede not seed.

You’re right... I blame comprehensive education under a Tory government!

Hard-line Brexiteers clearly getting worried. Rees-Mogg describing the PM's idea of a Customs Partnership  as "completely cretinous".  Nice example of party loyalty there.  Does he think that May will now lurch further right on hearing such constructive comments from a prominent Tory back-bencher ?! My take is Rees-Mogg is aware of the parliamentary arithmetic and fears May will be pragmatic.  Thing is, Rees-Mogg's position doesn't change that arithmetic.  

MDS posted:

Hard-line Brexiteers clearly getting worried. Rees-Mogg describing the PM's idea of a Customs Partnership  as "completely cretinous".  Nice example of party loyalty there.  Does he think that May will now lurch further right on hearing such constructive comments from a prominent Tory back-bencher ?! My take is Rees-Mogg is aware of the parliamentary arithmetic and fears May will be pragmatic.  Thing is, Rees-Mogg's position doesn't change that arithmetic.  

At some point with people continually sticking their heads over parapets to hurrel insults, make gross accusations and threats, someone, no matter how innocent they may perceive themselves to be, is going to get their head blown off. The intransigence of Remainers to recognise and accept the validity of a Referendum and 17.4 million people is shaping up to end very badly.

We all know that Parliament is stuffed with  Remainers who have blithely convinced themselves that their entitlement trumps the will of the electorate. With Corbyn and May as leaders of the main parties our whole Parliamentary system is in disarray with neither of them representing anything like the needs or wishes of the majority of the population of the UK. While May appeases, Corbyn makes mischief and the irony is that May is an arch-Remainer and Corbyn is an arch-Leaver. 

You might call it Parliamentary arithmetic, I call it blatant treachery by arrogant political pygmies. 

MDS posted:

Hard-line Brexiteers clearly getting worried. Rees-Mogg describing the PM's idea of a Customs Partnership  as "completely cretinous".  Nice example of party loyalty there.  Does he think that May will now lurch further right on hearing such constructive comments from a prominent Tory back-bencher ?! My take is Rees-Mogg is aware of the parliamentary arithmetic and fears May will be pragmatic.  Thing is, Rees-Mogg's position doesn't change that arithmetic.  

In my experience, if hard-line Brexiters feel in the ascendant, their language becomes bombastic and patronising - "we won, suck it up" being their most common leitmotif in the period immediately after the referendum. Indeed, the very term "Remoaner" is a good example. However, if the wheels come of the Brexit bus, as they are threatening to in fairly short order now, their language is likely to become much more aggressive - Rees-Mogg's terminology as quoted by MDS being slightly musty but unmistakably pugnacious.

I can't put a weblink here but there's a good article in the Indy on JMR quoting  him as saying, in reference to the Lords rejection of the Brexit legislation, "I think their lordships are playing with fire and it would be a shame to burn down a historic house.” Very thinly veiled threat there. 

The problem for Brexiters is that their adventure makes no sense whatsoever intellectually unless the UK burns its boats lock stock and barrel, to mix metaphors. Being out of the EU but in a customs union makes extremely good sense pragmatically, IF we are to be "out" of Europe. To hard-line Brexiters, however, being out of the EU but in a customs union and therefore bound by the ECJ (and not being able to agree trade pacts independently in perpetuity) is having all of the disadvantages of being out of the EU, with few of the advantages. Brexiters are waking up to the realisation that they will struggle to justify their xenophobic vanity project when the UK public wake up and realise they've been sold a pup...