Are we sleep-walking out of Europe ?

17,410,742 voted to leave.
16,141,241 voted to remain.
12,922,659 chose to delegate their vote to their elected representative (by dint of not voting).

Therefore, if Parliament decides that it's best for the country to leave, the majority is 30,333,401 to 16,141,241 in favour of leaving.

However, if Parliament decides that it's best for the country to remain, the majority is 29,063,900 to 17,410,742 in favour of remaining.

Huge posted:

17,410,742 voted to leave.
16,141,241 voted to remain.
12,922,659 chose to delegate their vote to their elected representative (by dint of not voting).

Therefore, if Parliament decides that it's best for the country to leave, the majority is 30,333,401 to 16,141,241 in favour of leaving.

However, if Parliament decides that it's best for the country to remain, the majority is 29,063,900 to 17,410,742 in favour of remaining.

Droll! Very droll, but pretty desperate stuff at the same time. ????????????

Duncan Mann posted:

Resurrection posted:

Hilarious! The die was cast and you lost but we seem to have the incessant, incoherent rerun in the minds of Remainers even before implementation. Cameron and the Remaining team were absolutely insistent that a vote to Leave meant us out of the EU in its entirety - the ECJ, the customs union, the border control etc etc. I, and my 17.4 million friends, had absolute clarity of thought and desire as what we wished, and were happy that Cameron expressed it in detail, but the fog of understanding only seemed to dissipate from Remainers' eyes once the horror of their own self inflicted wounds became apparent. Since when, the Remoaning has been of Herculean proportions. 

No second chances from me, IB, and you are exceedingly fortunate that I am happy to indulge your specious arguments. 

No. There was an absolute lack of clarity about what being out of the EU actually meant - one of the (many) fundamental flaws of the referendum. It clearly meant something in your mind, but I very much doubt that your 17.4 million "friends" shared the same world view - for many it was a protest vote against austerity and neoliberalism.

I'm assuming that your last paragraph was tongue in cheek and not intended to be patronising and arrogant in equal measure? 

As for the suggestion that I "do not come out with any more weasel words", have you suddenly become a moderator of this forum? I will continue to argue in a reasoned and balanced way for what I believe in, and obviously you're welcome to do the same. At least this forum is capable of offering different shades of opinion, unlike the comments section of the Daily Mail, and whilst you've made it very clear that your stance on Brexit is utterly fixed, there are others on here who may have a more open mind on the matter, and they can no doubt draw their own conclusions on the debate from the arguments evinced. If there's one thing I am sure of, it's that Britain is an utterly divided nation as a result of the referendum, and the ONLY way forward for us as a nation is to reach a modicum of political consensus through debate.

 You can argue about the historical context of the Referendum, but that time has passed and you really are just whistling in the wind if you think that your 50 shades of grey opinions are going to change a single thing. 

An afraid your illusionary bubble has been well and truly burst!

Innocent Bystander posted:

Resurrection posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

Resurrection posted:

As I have said, I have absolutely no fear of a second Referendum after the first one has been completely implemented and if you are so confident in us clamouring to rejoin the EU maybe we should insist on a 66% majority being needed to be successful - again one of your complaints about the first Referendum

Other than reliance on incessant repeation of the fact that 17.4 million voted for Brexit in the 2015 referendum, I don’t recall you advancing any argument as to why confirmation would not be a good idea.

You may not be afraid of a second referendum after Britain has Brexited, when it will be a different situation altogether, But very clearly you ARE afraid - terrified even - of a confirmatory referendum before Brexit is finalised

I wonder why......?

Hilarious! The die was cast and you lost but we seem to have the incessant, incoherent rerun in the minds of Remainers even before implementation. Cameron and the Remaining team were absolutely insistent that a vote to Leave meant us out of the EU in its entirety - the ECJ, the customs union, the border control etc etc. I, and my 17.4 million friends, had absolute clarity of thought and desire as what we wished, and were happy that Cameron expressed it in detail, but the fog of understanding only seemed to dissipate from Remainers' eyes once the horror of their own self inflicted wounds became apparent. Since when, the Remoaning has been of Herculean proportions. 

No second chances from me, IB, and you are exceedingly fortunate that I am happy to indulge your specious arguments. 

All you have done in this response is dig yourself deeper into your hole by yet again reiterating your apparent belief in the power of a number, yet scared stiff of the country being asked to confirm its desire.

Oh, and in what way do you indulge my “arguments”, regardless of whether you consider them specious? And how does that make me fortunate, exceedingly or otherwise?

 

That I am here to amuse and while away your time. ????????????

Huge posted:

17,410,742 voted to leave.
16,141,241 voted to remain.
12,922,659 chose to delegate their vote to their elected representative (by dint of not voting).

Therefore, if Parliament decides that it's best for the country to leave, the majority is 30,333,401 to 16,141,241 in favour of leaving.

However, if Parliament decides that it's best for the country to remain, the majority is 29,063,900 to 17,410,742 in favour of remaining.

A novel way of looking at it !

My “mole” suggests that we intent to remain part of EASA ( the European Aviation Safety Agency). I am not entirely convinced !

I am not clear how much £££ we will contribute to EASA or whether we will continue to have a big say in the development of new rules etc.

As I type, the 6 O’clock News has just announced that the EU is denying U.K. firms access to Galileo and the U.K. Gov is seeking legal advice as to whether we can reclaim our £1.2bn contribution to the project. Perhaps Reserection can inform us all exactly what the Brexit Team said about this before the referendum. I don’t seem to recall it being mentioned.

I’m unsighted with respect to EGNOS.........anybody ? Reserection ?

Don Atkinson posted:

My “mole” suggests that we intent to remain part of EASA ( the European Aviation Safety Agency). I am not entirely convinced !

I am not clear how much £££ we will contribute to EASA or whether we will continue to have a big say in the development of new rules etc.

As I type, the 6 O’clock News has just announced that the EU is denying U.K. firms access to Galileo and the U.K. Gov is seeking legal advice as to whether we can reclaim our £1.2bn contribution to the project. Perhaps Reserection can inform us all exactly what the Brexit Team said about this before the referendum. I don’t seem to recall it being mentioned.

I’m unsighted with respect to EGNOS.........anybody ? Reserection ?

Don’t know, don’t really care. We have been used as a major contributor to anything and everything EU. If they can do better and cheaper without us then they can crack on!

Part of my reasoning for voting to Leave has been the incontinent use of my taxes for toutes les grandes folies of the EU eg the monthly mass movement to Strasbourg. If the EU is already putting up unnecessary barriers then it just hardens Resurrection’s Resolution! 

Part of the attraction for many member states of the EU is a he fact that they are bet recipients of its largesse. With the Brexit of a major contributor and less bunce to keep them inside, I think you will see their enthusiasm wain, and fast. 

Resurrection posted:

Huge posted:

17,410,742 voted to leave.
16,141,241 voted to remain.
12,922,659 chose to delegate their vote to their elected representative (by dint of not voting).

Therefore, if Parliament decides that it's best for the country to leave, the majority is 30,333,401 to 16,141,241 in favour of leaving.

However, if Parliament decides that it's best for the country to remain, the majority is 29,063,900 to 17,410,742 in favour of remaining.

Droll! Very droll, but pretty desperate stuff at the same time. ????????????

Droll, but also accurate and logical.

Funny how anything that opposes your position is so often labelled "hilarious" or "desperate stuff" (accusations which themselves have more than a touch of desperation!).

Resurrection posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

All you have done in this response is dig yourself deeper into your hole by yet again reiterating your apparent belief in the power of a number, yet scared stiff of the country being asked to confirm its desire.

Oh, and in what way do you indulge my “arguments”, regardless of whether you consider them specious? And how does that make me fortunate, exceedingly or otherwise?

That I am here to amuse and while away your time. ????????????

Nice to know that we’re keeping you off the streets writing your increasingly desperate and defensive arguments, trying to control the quaking in your boots lest the powers that be decide to do the sensible thing and seek confirmation from voters before pulling the plug.

Resurrection posted:

 You can argue about the historical context of the Referendum, but that time has passed and you really are just whistling in the wind if you think that your 50 shades of grey opinions are going to change a single thing. 

An afraid your illusionary bubble has been well and truly burst!

Nope. Never had any illusions - as I said earlier in this thread "I suspect that TM will ultimately be forced to back down on the customs union, though we will be out of the EU in name." Sounds pretty realistic to me - I voted Remain, I accept that Article 50 will be notionally implemented - though the bit about the customs union might be pretty scary for you if TM loses the coming Commons face off with her saner MPs who are not willing to trash British industry on the altar of extreme right-wing ideology. TM always follows the line of least resistance, so it will be fun to see her squirm. 

Resurrection posted:

Eloise posted:

MDS posted:

Resurrection - while I acknowledge that you voted exit in the light of a pretty good understanding of the issues and are clear on what you mean by 'exit', I strongly suspect that very many who voted exit didn't had anything like that understanding. I'd hazard a guess that more than half wouldn't have had any idea what a 'customs union' was, let alone an understanding of it's benefits and downsides.  If we do exit the EU while still remaining in the/a customs union, the politicians will present it as a victory.  While there will be some e.g. hard Brexiteers, who with say it is treachery, most won't because (a) they didn't have a defined idea of what exit meant and (b) don't understand or want to understand the pros & cons of the issues involved.    

I would add to that MDS ... that even if Leave thinking voters knew what the customs union was, they were told by several of the leading campaigners that even if the UK voted to leave the EU, that the Customs Union and even the Single Market were good things and that the UK could remain part of them.

You see, that is what I love about Remainers, they not only know their own minds they also know the wishes and intentions of Leavers as well, usually with a healthy dose of condescension. 

I wasn't intending to be condescending or even to suggest (on this post, at least)  that many who voted leave did so because they misunderstood the issues. Rather, that many who voted leave might well view an exit which involved the UK staying in a customs union with the EU as 'mission accomplished' , not treachery.  

Duncan Mann posted:

Resurrection posted:

 You can argue about the historical context of the Referendum, but that time has passed and you really are just whistling in the wind if you think that your 50 shades of grey opinions are going to change a single thing. 

An afraid your illusionary bubble has been well and truly burst!

Nope. Never had any illusions - as I said earlier in this thread "I suspect that TM will ultimately be forced to back down on the customs union, though we will be out of the EU in name." Sounds pretty realistic to me - I voted Remain, I accept that Article 50 will be notionally implemented - though the bit about the customs union might be pretty scary for you if TM loses the coming Commons face off with her saner MPs who are not willing to trash British industry on the altar of extreme right-wing ideology. TM always follows the line of least resistance, so it will be fun to see her squirm. 

I see, you believe that the Remain Cabal have the levers of power and that they can force their demands not only on the majority who voted to Leave the EU but also have the PM under their control.

Sounds to me that the EU has worked its magic in separating state control from the electorate to a directorate answerable only to itself and its self belief. Not impressed with your Orwellian society or your imaginary right wing excuses for power grabbing. 

Innocent Bystander posted:

Resurrection posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

All you have done in this response is dig yourself deeper into your hole by yet again reiterating your apparent belief in the power of a number, yet scared stiff of the country being asked to confirm its desire.

Oh, and in what way do you indulge my “arguments”, regardless of whether you consider them specious? And how does that make me fortunate, exceedingly or otherwise?

That I am here to amuse and while away your time. ????????????

Nice to know that we’re keeping you off the streets writing your increasingly desperate and defensive arguments, trying to control the quaking in your boots lest the powers that be decide to do the sensible thing and seek confirmation from voters before pulling the plug.

Nope, just busy swatting annoying, buzzing flies and their flights of fancy. ????

Resurrection posted:

"You see, that is what I love about Remainers, they not only know their own minds they also know the wishes and intentions of Leavers as well, usually with a healthy dose of condescension." 

It would appear, given the following post that you too are guilty of the very same illusion that you know the wishes and intention of all leavers:  

 "As a hard line Brexiter, I was and still am fully aware of all the so called 'disadvantages' you Remainers continually lecture us with. We knew that we did not want to be tied to the ECJ; we knew we did notwant a customs union, no matter how much you Remainers keep telling us we did; we have not the slightest interest in the complications of the border with Northern Ireland - that will resolve itself with surprising ease. Stop using the xenophobic card, you just disgrace yourself"

It appears that you don't (and did not) want a customs union, and that you do not care "one jot" about what happens to Northern Ireland as a result of Brexit. I accept that this is your personal viewpoint, but how on earth can you extrapolate from your own position and come to the conclusion that everyone else who voted for Brexit feels the same way. I would be willing to bet that a sizeable percentage of those who voted Brexit either don't have a clue about what a customs union is, or alternatively would be quite willing to remain in the customs union if it meant a solution to the potential Northern Ireland problem. Are you so sure that I am wrong?

You also appear to be very defensive about the allegation that some people on the Brexit side voted this way because they are racists or xenophobes. I will accept that most people who voted to leave are neither racists nor xenophobes. However, one indisputable fact is that all racists and xenophobes from the fringe elements on the right who cast their vote in the referendum will have voted to leave. I think it would be pretty safe to assume that none of the racists or xenophobes who did vote will have voted to remain. Take them away, and the referendum result might have been very different, or at least much closer.        

Don Atkinson posted:

My “mole” suggests that we intent to remain part of EASA ( the European Aviation Safety Agency). I am not entirely convinced !

I am not clear how much £££ we will contribute to EASA or whether we will continue to have a big say in the development of new rules etc.

As I type, the 6 O’clock News has just announced that the EU is denying U.K. firms access to Galileo and the U.K. Gov is seeking legal advice as to whether we can reclaim our £1.2bn contribution to the project. Perhaps Reserection can inform us all exactly what the Brexit Team said about this before the referendum. I don’t seem to recall it being mentioned.

I’m unsighted with respect to EGNOS.........anybody ? Reserection ?

Hi Don - my son is a professional pilot, so have some insight into this area. We need to remain part of EASA if we are not to trash our aerospace industry, as the approvals mechanisms for manufactured components are processed through EASA. We also need to be part of EASA to keep flights running in and out of Europe from the UK. I can't put weblinks here - but Google "EASA Brexit" and go to the link for this subject on the Professional Pilots' Rumour Network, pprune.  This is as you might imagine a bit of a problem, given that for many Airbuses, the wings are made in Broughton, the engines in Derby, and the landing gear in Filton - to mention but a few.

In terms of our financial contributions to retain membership, I'm not sure. I do know that the British CAA took on a substantial part of the work undertaken by EASA in certain regulatory areas - work that will presumably pass elsewhere in Europe post Brexit. I doubt that the CAA will retain much influence going forward, though if we pay enough, that might be possible.

With regard to Galileo, it appears that the threat to exclude the UK from further participation in this project and indeed from the facility to use the resultant satellite navigation system for military purposes is a bit asinine on the part of the EU negotiators - I suspect its a negotiating ploy to ratchet up the pressure on the UK negotiating team. It makes no sense if the UK is to contribute meaningfully to European defence going forward, as part of NATO - which in the context of the Russian resurgence ought to be concentrating minds in the EU. 

I read on the BBC website that the UK Space Agency is looking at replacing the Galileo system (to which we have contributed much expertise and £1.2Bn to date) with a home grown alternative - a snip apparently at a mere £5Bn. Like we can afford that when the NHS is in crisis and public services on their knees...

Hope that helps...

Hmack posted:

Resurrection posted:

"You see, that is what I love about Remainers, they not only know their own minds they also know the wishes and intentions of Leavers as well, usually with a healthy dose of condescension." 

It would appear, given the following post that you too are guilty of the very same illusion that you know the wishes and intention of all leavers:  

 "As a hard line Brexiter, I was and still am fully aware of all the so called 'disadvantages' you Remainers continually lecture us with. We knew that we did not want to be tied to the ECJ; we knew we did notwant a customs union, no matter how much you Remainers keep telling us we did; we have not the slightest interest in the complications of the border with Northern Ireland - that will resolve itself with surprising ease. Stop using the xenophobic card, you just disgrace yourself"

It appears that you don't (and did not) want a customs union, and that you do not care "one jot" about what happens to Northern Ireland as a result of Brexit. I accept that this is your personal viewpoint, but how on earth can you extrapolate from your own position and come to the conclusion that everyone else who voted for Brexit feels the same way. I would be willing to bet that a sizeable percentage of those who voted Brexit either don't have a clue about what a customs union is, or alternatively would be quite willing to remain in the customs union if it meant a solution to the potential Northern Ireland problem. Are you so sure that I am wrong?

You also appear to be very defensive about the allegation that some people on the Brexit side voted this way because they are racists or xenophobes. I will accept that most people who voted to leave are neither racists nor xenophobes. However, one indisputable fact is that all racists and xenophobes from the fringe elements on the right who cast their vote in the referendum will have voted to leave. I think it would be pretty safe to assume that none of the racists or xenophobes who did vote will have voted to remain. Take them away, and the referendum result might have been very different, or at least much closer.        

And can we please take away all the anti-Semites on the left? That should rebalance the books. 

Duncan Mann posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

My “mole” suggests that we intent to remain part of EASA ( the European Aviation Safety Agency). I am not entirely convinced !

I am not clear how much £££ we will contribute to EASA or whether we will continue to have a big say in the development of new rules etc.

As I type, the 6 O’clock News has just announced that the EU is denying U.K. firms access to Galileo and the U.K. Gov is seeking legal advice as to whether we can reclaim our £1.2bn contribution to the project. Perhaps Reserection can inform us all exactly what the Brexit Team said about this before the referendum. I don’t seem to recall it being mentioned.

I’m unsighted with respect to EGNOS.........anybody ? Reserection ?

Hi Don - my son is a professional pilot, so have some insight into this area. We need to remain part of EASA if we are not to trash our aerospace industry, as the approvals mechanisms for manufactured components are processed through EASA. We also need to be part of EASA to keep flights running in and out of Europe from the UK. I can't put weblinks here - but Google "EASA Brexit" and go to the link for this subject on the Professional Pilots' Rumour Network, pprune.  This is as you might imagine a bit of a problem, given that for many Airbuses, the wings are made in Broughton, the engines in Derby, and the landing gear in Filton - to mention but a few.

In terms of our financial contributions to retain membership, I'm not sure. I do know that the British CAA took on a substantial part of the work undertaken by EASA in certain regulatory areas - work that will presumably pass elsewhere in Europe post Brexit. I doubt that the CAA will retain much influence going forward, though if we pay enough, that might be possible.

With regard to Galileo, it appears that the threat to exclude the UK from further participation in this project and indeed from the facility to use the resultant satellite navigation system for military purposes is a bit asinine on the part of the EU negotiators - I suspect its a negotiating ploy to ratchet up the pressure on the UK negotiating team. It makes no sense if the UK is to contribute meaningfully to European defence going forward, as part of NATO - which in the context of the Russian resurgence ought to be concentrating minds in the EU. 

I read on the BBC website that the UK Space Agency is looking at replacing the Galileo system (to which we have contributed much expertise and £1.2Bn to date) with a home grown alternative - a snip apparently at a mere £5Bn. Like we can afford that when the NHS is in crisis and public services on their knees...

Hope that helps...

 

  

Still, think of all the other home grown projects we can afford after we stop wasting so much of our own taxpayers' money on the walls of Berlaymont and restocking Juncker's cave.  ????

Thanks Duncan,

It’s good to have someone else who is familiar with aviation. I have been flying professionally for more than 50 years. My comments/questions were based on my contacts with that August regulatory body that is based at Gatwick.

I concur with your assessment of what would be “good” for U.K. aviation and aircraft manufacture. Unfortunately, it isn’t a certainty yet, that HMG will accommodate U.K. aviation any more than any other industry in their Brexit negotiations. I’m hopeful, based on my “mole” but not yet confident. Ditto Galileo !

Duncan Mann posted:

I read on the BBC website that the UK Space Agency is looking at replacing the Galileo system (to which we have contributed much expertise and £1.2Bn to date) with a home grown alternative - a snip apparently at a mere £5Bn. Like we can afford that when the NHS is in crisis and public services on their knees...  

I’m sure the Brexiteers will reassure that it is a drop in the ocean, easily covered with the excess of the £18Bn a year that UK will save from leaving the EU, despite using a chunk of that to provide adequate funding for the NHS.

Resurrection posted:

HMack posted:

  

You also appear to be very defensive about the allegation that some people on the Brexit side voted this way because they are racists or xenophobes. I will accept that most people who voted to leave are neither racists nor xenophobes. However, one indisputable fact is that all racists and xenophobes from the fringe elements on the right who cast their vote in the referendum will have voted to leave. I think it would be pretty safe to assume that none of the racists or xenophobes who did vote will have voted to remain. Take them away, and the referendum result might have been very different, or at least much closer.        

And can we please take away all the anti-Semites on the left? That should rebalance the books. 

That should read: “Can we please take away all racists wherever they may be, left, right or centre, that would make Britain a better place.” And indeed all those with anti-equality mindsets.”

Innocent Bystander posted:

Resurrection posted:

Hmack posted:

Resurrection posted:

"You see, that is what I love about Remainers, they not only know their own minds they also know the wishes and intentions of Leavers as well, usually with a healthy dose of condescension." 

It would appear, given the following post that you too are guilty of the very same illusion that you know the wishes and intention of all leavers:  

 "As a hard line Brexiter, I was and still am fully aware of all the so called 'disadvantages' you Remainers continually lecture us with. We knew that we did not want to be tied to the ECJ; we knew we did notwant a customs union, no matter how much you Remainers keep telling us we did; we have not the slightest interest in the complications of the border with Northern Ireland - that will resolve itself with surprising ease. Stop using the xenophobic card, you just disgrace yourself"

It appears that you don't (and did not) want a customs union, and that you do not care "one jot" about what happens to Northern Ireland as a result of Brexit. I accept that this is your personal viewpoint, but how on earth can you extrapolate from your own position and come to the conclusion that everyone else who voted for Brexit feels the same way. I would be willing to bet that a sizeable percentage of those who voted Brexit either don't have a clue about what a customs union is, or alternatively would be quite willing to remain in the customs union if it meant a solution to the potential Northern Ireland problem. Are you so sure that I am wrong?

You also appear to be very defensive about the allegation that some people on the Brexit side voted this way because they are racists or xenophobes. I will accept that most people who voted to leave are neither racists nor xenophobes. However, one indisputable fact is that all racists and xenophobes from the fringe elements on the right who cast their vote in the referendum will have voted to leave. I think it would be pretty safe to assume that none of the racists or xenophobes who did vote will have voted to remain. Take them away, and the referendum result might have been very different, or at least much closer.        

And can we please take away all the anti-Semites on the left? That should rebalance the books. 

That should read: “Can we please take away all racists wherever they may be, left, right or centre, that would make Britain a better place.” And indeed all those with anti-equality mindsets.

Morning, IB. No, it should read as I wrote it. Using race, religion, culture or whatever as an excuse to close down discussions is a very dangerous game. Any of the above group of words have been and will be used as justification for perpetrating or suppressing most of humanity's nastiest crimes. Corbyn's Labour is anti-Semitic, for example, and McCluskey's ugliness proves it! ????

Don Atkinson posted:

Huge posted:

17,410,742 voted to leave.
16,141,241 voted to remain.
12,922,659 chose to delegate their vote to their elected representative (by dint of not voting).

Therefore, if Parliament decides that it's best for the country to leave, the majority is 30,333,401 to 16,141,241 in favour of leaving.

However, if Parliament decides that it's best for the country to remain, the majority is 29,063,900 to 17,410,742 in favour of remaining.

A novel way of looking at it !

Indeed it may be a novel way of looking at it, but it does beg the question why did 12.9 M people choose not to vote? Apathy? I suspect they could be some of those now saying we should just get on with it.

Resurrection posted:

Still, think of all the other home grown projects we can afford after we stop wasting so much of our own taxpayers' money on the walls of Berlaymont and restocking Juncker's cave.  ????

Pity that, due to the resulting contraction of our economy, all the money saved (and more) will have to be diverted into our own government just to maintain the current level of government run services that we currently have.

Or are you also a US style 'small governmentist' (mostly right wingers) and think we should substantially reduce government run services in the UK?

Huge posted:

Resurrection posted:

Still, think of all the other home grown projects we can afford after we stop wasting so much of our own taxpayers' money on the walls of Berlaymont and restocking Juncker's cave.  ????

Pity that, due to the resulting contraction of our economy, all the money saved (and more) will have to be diverted into our own government just to maintain the current level of government run services that we currently have.

Or are you also a US style 'small governmentist' (mostly right wingers) and think we should substantially reduce government run services in the UK?

Am hoping that the industries of bureaucracy, political structures, political punditry, the BBC and the Grauniad are the first casualties even when I know in my heart of hearts they will be the last. 

Resurrection posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

Resurrection posted:

Hmack posted:

 

You also appear to be very defensive about the allegation that some people on the Brexit side voted this way because they are racists or xenophobes. I will accept that most people who voted to leave are neither racists nor xenophobes. However, one indisputable fact is that all racists and xenophobes from the fringe elements on the right who cast their vote in the referendum will have voted to leave. I think it would be pretty safe to assume that none of the racists or xenophobes who did vote will have voted to remain. Take them away, and the referendum result might have been very different, or at least much closer.        

And can we please take away all the anti-Semites on the left? That should rebalance the books. 

That should read: “Can we please take away all racists wherever they may be, left, right or centre, that would make Britain a better place.” And indeed all those with anti-equality mindsets.

Morning, IB. No, it should read as I wrote it. Using race, religion, culture or whatever as an excuse to close down discussions is a very dangerous game. Any of the above group of words have been and will be used as justification for perpetrating or suppressing most of humanity's nastiest crimes. Corbyn's Labour is anti-Semitic, for example, and McCluskey's ugliness proves it! ????

‘Morning to you, too.

I agree that using race, religeon or culture to close down discussions is inappropriate, but any form of persecution of others simply because they are of different race, creed etc should not be tolerated. Anti-semitism is but one manifestation -which Indeed must be stamped upon - but to brand the whole of the current labour party is unjustified, and while the media circus and political opponents are very quick to utilise anything to their advantage and, possibly, blow things out of all proportion (note, I only cite as a possibility, because I do not have enough real knowledge of Corbyn or others to be capable of assessing, while such political point-scoring is sadly the norm), can we be sure that no-one on the other side of the polopitical divide is free of anti-semitic feelings, ditto the vocal media covering? I am not casting aspersions, but simply asking the question.