Are we sleep-walking out of Europe ?

Innocent Bystander posted:

Morning, IB. No, it should read as I wrote it. Using race, religion, culture or whatever as an excuse to close down discussions is a very dangerous game. Any of the above group of words have been and will be used as justification for perpetrating or suppressing most of humanity's nastiest crimes. Corbyn's Labour is anti-Semitic, for example, and McCluskey's ugliness proves it! ????

 

‘Morning to you, too.

I agree that using race, religeon or culture to close down discussions is inappropriate, but any form of persecution of others simply because they are of different race, creed etc should not be tolerated. Anti-semitism is but one manifestation -which Indeed must be stamped upon - but to brand the whole of the current labour party is unjustified, and while the media circus and political opponents are very quick to utilise anything to their advantage and, possibly, blow things out of all proportion (note, I only cite as a possibility, because I do not have enough real knowledge of Corbyn or others to be capable of assessing, while such political point-scoring is sadly the norm), can we be sure that no-one on the other side of the polopitical divide is free of anti-semitic feelings, ditto the vocal media covering? I am not casting aspersions, but simply asking the question.

IB, I am not in disagreement with yourself and to a certain extent I do use hyperbole to highlight or stimulate my arguments. However, the current, and correct in my own mind, skewering of Corbyn's Labour Party with its anti-Semitism, highlights the hypocrisy that underlies much of what Socialism claims to represent. the liberal use of words like 'racism', 'xenophobia', 'religious intolerance' etc are used as battering rams against debate with the intended result of gaining power and then using the same terms to suppress any and all opposition. If you think Corbyn is any different I suggest you look at the bedfellows that have accompanied him on his political journeys. His love of Venezuela, Cuba, Hizbollah, the IRA etc give you a very good clue as to what would come next if he ever gains power. 

Resurrection posted:

Am hoping that the industries of bureaucracy, political structures, political punditry, the BBC and the Grauniad are the first casualties even when I know in my heart of hearts they will be the last. 

 

Fascinating. Is this an example of the hyperbole to which you admit, or could it actually be that you are an anarchist?? That would explain a lot... 

Duncan Mann posted:

Resurrection posted:

Am hoping that the industries of bureaucracy, political structures, political punditry, the BBC and the Grauniad are the first casualties even when I know in my heart of hearts they will be the last. 

 

Fascinating. Is this an example of the hyperbole to which you admit, or could it actually be that you are an anarchist?? That would explain a lot... 

 

Indeed!

Hmack posted:

Duncan Mann posted:

Resurrection posted:

Am hoping that the industries of bureaucracy, political structures, political punditry, the BBC and the Grauniad are the first casualties even when I know in my heart of hearts they will be the last. 

 

Fascinating. Is this an example of the hyperbole to which you admit, or could it actually be that you are an anarchist?? That would explain a lot... 

 

Indeed!

No, I am a reductionist, a minimalist and very much an anti-establishmentarian. I do not like bureaucracy or over intrusive politics or politicians. You Socialists love all that stuff! 

Resurrection posted:

Hmack posted:

Resurrection posted:

"You see, that is what I love about Remainers, they not only know their own minds they also know the wishes and intentions of Leavers as well, usually with a healthy dose of condescension." 

It would appear, given the following post that you too are guilty of the very same illusion that you know the wishes and intention of all leavers:  

 "As a hard line Brexiter, I was and still am fully aware of all the so called 'disadvantages' you Remainers continually lecture us with. We knew that we did not want to be tied to the ECJ; we knew we did notwant a customs union, no matter how much you Remainers keep telling us we did; we have not the slightest interest in the complications of the border with Northern Ireland - that will resolve itself with surprising ease. Stop using the xenophobic card, you just disgrace yourself"

It appears that you don't (and did not) want a customs union, and that you do not care "one jot" about what happens to Northern Ireland as a result of Brexit. I accept that this is your personal viewpoint, but how on earth can you extrapolate from your own position and come to the conclusion that everyone else who voted for Brexit feels the same way. I would be willing to bet that a sizeable percentage of those who voted Brexit either don't have a clue about what a customs union is, or alternatively would be quite willing to remain in the customs union if it meant a solution to the potential Northern Ireland problem. Are you so sure that I am wrong?

You also appear to be very defensive about the allegation that some people on the Brexit side voted this way because they are racists or xenophobes. I will accept that most people who voted to leave are neither racists nor xenophobes. However, one indisputable fact is that all racists and xenophobes from the fringe elements on the right who cast their vote in the referendum will have voted to leave. I think it would be pretty safe to assume that none of the racists or xenophobes who did vote will have voted to remain. Take them away, and the referendum result might have been very different, or at least much closer.        

And can we please take away all the anti-Semites on the left? That should rebalance the books. 

No it wouldn't, and you know it.

You obviously derive some satisfaction from the ridiculous labels you apply to Jeremy Corbyn. So far you would have him as a Communist, treasonous, traitorous and now an anti Semite. Do you really think that these ludicrous assertions lend any weight to your arguments or diatribes?

If indeed there are anti-Semites in the Labour party, and I'm sure there will be a few in an organisation of this size then I am equally sure that they will be rooted out and expelled from the party. However, I guess that in order to lend weight to your anti-Labour position you are deliberately conflating anti-Semitism (which is absolutely abhorrent in line with all other forms of racism) with support for the plight of the (ordinary) Palestinians, or with opposition to some of the expansionist policies of Netanyahu and some others on the Orthodox far right of Israeli politics.

Resurrection posted:

"And can we please take away all the anti-Semites on the left? That should rebalance the books." 

You appear to have forgotten that the question of Brexit is not a typical political battle of left vs right.

Many of those on this forum who voice their support for retention of membership of the EU have indicated that their political leaning is to the right of British politics.

If indeed there are some anti-Semites on the left, then I expect that most of them will have voted to leave the EU, in line with all of the other racists or xenophobes.    

Books very much not rebalanced! 

     Wasn't Jeremy Corbyn overheard saying to someone at a bus stop "What time is the next bus, jew"

 

No it wouldn't, and you know it.

You obviously derive some satisfaction from the ridiculous labels you apply to Jeremy Corbyn. So far you would have him as a Communist, treasonous, traitorous and now an anti Semite. Do you really think that these ludicrous assertions lend any weight to your arguments or diatribes?

If indeed there are anti-Semites in the Labour party, and I'm sure there will be a few in an organisation of this size then I am equally sure that they will be rooted out and expelled from the party. However, I guess that in order to lend weight to your anti-Labour position you are deliberately conflating anti-Semitism (which is absolutely abhorrent in line with all other forms of racism) with support for the plight of the (ordinary) Palestinians, or with opposition to some of the expansionist policies of Netanyahu and some others on the Orthodox far right of Israeli politics.

 

Ha! Ha! Sore point, eh? There is blatant ant-Semitism in Corbyn's Party and you know it. They will be rooted out, eh! Just like Livingstone is still not rooted out, as well as all the Momentum candidates whose vile postings on Twitter etc are coming back to haunt them. You are a man in complete denial of plain facts. There is absolutely no moral high ground for you Corbynistas to stand upon and lecture the rest of us. And as for the Palestinian card, all I can say to you is Hizbollah. No one is stopping the Palestinians from creating a decent society for themselves except for the Palestinians and the leaders they 'elect'. Denial from you one more time.

TOBYJUG posted:

     Wasn't Jeremy Corbyn overheard saying to someone at a bus stop "What time is the next bus, jew"

No.

You missed that word from the end of your sentence  (phonetic spelling, as presumably was your last word)

TOBYJUG posted:

     Wasn't Jeremy Corbyn overheard saying to someone at a bus stop "What time is the next bus, jew"

Actually, what he also said to McCluskey was, "How much am I jew to you for your valued support?"

Resurrection posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

Resurrection posted:     

And can we please take away all the anti-Semites on the left? That should rebalance the books. 

That should read: “Can we please take away all racists wherever they may be, left, right or centre, that would make Britain a better place.” And indeed all those with anti-equality mindsets.

Morning, IB. No, it should read as I wrote it. Using race, religion, culture or whatever as an excuse to close down discussions is a very dangerous game. Any of the above group of words have been and will be used as justification for perpetrating or suppressing most of humanity's nastiest crimes.

Yet claims of anti-Semitism are used to shut down criticism of Israel and criticism of the actions of individuals who happen to be Jewish.  Isn't that exactly the same thing you are complaining about?

Innocent Bystander posted:

TOBYJUG posted:

Wasn't Jeremy Corbyn overheard saying to someone at a bus stop "What time is the next bus, jew"

No.

You missed that word from the end of your sentence  (phonetic spelling, as presumably was your last word)

I think it was meant as a joke ... though with something so unfunny about something so serious its hard to tell!

Eloise posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

TOBYJUG posted:

Wasn't Jeremy Corbyn overheard saying to someone at a bus stop "What time is the next bus, jew"

No.

You missed that word from the end of your sentence  (phonetic spelling, as presumably was your last word)

I think it was meant as a joke ... though with something so unfunny about something so serious its hard to tell!

I recognised that - so was my response!

Innocent Bystander posted:

Eloise posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

TOBYJUG posted:

Wasn't Jeremy Corbyn overheard saying to someone at a bus stop "What time is the next bus, jew"

No.

You missed that word from the end of your sentence  (phonetic spelling, as presumably was your last word)

I think it was meant as a joke ... though with something so unfunny about something so serious its hard to tell!

I recognised that - so was my response!

Okay ... now I get your meaning ... I was reading Toby's as "What time is the next bus due?"; you were suggesting "What time is the next bus, do you know?".  

Still unfunny!

Eloise posted:

Resurrection posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

Resurrection posted:     

And can we please take away all the anti-Semites on the left? That should rebalance the books. 

That should read: “Can we please take away all racists wherever they may be, left, right or centre, that would make Britain a better place.” And indeed all those with anti-equality mindsets.

Morning, IB. No, it should read as I wrote it. Using race, religion, culture or whatever as an excuse to close down discussions is a very dangerous game. Any of the above group of words have been and will be used as justification for perpetrating or suppressing most of humanity's nastiest crimes.

Yet claims of anti-Semitism are used to shut down criticism of Israel and criticism of the actions of individuals who happen to be Jewish.  Isn't that exactly the same thing you are complaining about?

Wait until you see some of my other replies. ????

Not a joke I made up. More an article from the web a few weeks ago. Fake news seems to be more real than the real thing.

Coming from a not too far a Jewish background, can I position myself to have authorship over this joke ? Didn't Mel Brooks do spring time for Hitler or something ? Does it mean anything to anyone else that this doesn't mean anything to me ?

Could someone explain to a european mainland citizen what makes the Brexiteers think they would be better off on their own in todays globalized world of Trumps, Putins and Erdogans? In short what exactly weighs heavy enough to justify a vote to leave the EU despite the fact that this organization has made possible 70+ years of peace in Europe?

zikarus posted:

Could someone explain to a european mainland citizen what makes the Brexiteers think they would be better off on their own in todays globalized world of Trumps, Putins and Erdogans? What exactly could justify a vote to leave the EU despite the fact that this organization has made possible 70+ years of peace in Europe?

We would continue to spell ‘organise’ the correct way and could also continue to be a member of NATO, the real defence, sic, of Europe.

zikarus posted:

Could someone explain to a european mainland citizen what makes the Brexiteers think they would be better off on their own in todays globalized world of Trumps, Putins and Erdogans? In short what exactly weighs heavy enough to justify a vote to leave the EU despite the fact that this organization has made possible 70+ years of peace in Europe?

The answer is not a straightforward simple one, with many factors involved. 

1. Clearly one big factor is cost, as in the UK putting a lot of money in, with not a lot tangible out, whereas some countries seem to receive more money from the EU than they put in. Depending how much regard an individual has for the benefit of helping others, and whether the intangibles are recognised as worth the cost.
2. Another big one is the creeping los of sovereignty, the EU seemingly moving inexorably towards a single nation, “united states of Europe” perhaps, and don’t like the changes that imposes on us, potentially taking away or at least diluting what makes us British, and with it losing aspects of what is seen to be our freedom.

The second of those is one that concerns me, and if we were being asked if we wanted to join the EU, with that side of things clearly on the table, I might say no - but to me, being in the EU already, rather than leave, Britain should be expending serious effort to showing others what may be seen as wrong with this trend, and find a way harmoniously of agreeing what a good Europe would look like while allowing member states to retain their own character freedoms.

People didn't vote to leave, that's the thing. 

For me, and many others, it was one week on the news that this vote was going to take place for everyone.  Almost the next week the vote was over and " everyone" had voted.   I didn't vote because in truth I didn't know what I was voting for, I didn't even know what Brexit meant as a word until after the fact. 

If it was organised that the public had a year or two to consider ? But it didn't happen like that.

Innocent Bystander posted:

zikarus posted:

Could someone explain to a european mainland citizen what makes the Brexiteers think they would be better off on their own in todays globalized world of Trumps, Putins and Erdogans? In short what exactly weighs heavy enough to justify a vote to leave the EU despite the fact that this organization has made possible 70+ years of peace in Europe?

The answer is not a straightforward simple one, with many factors involved. 

1. Clearly one big factor is cost, as in the UK putting a lot of money in, with not a lot tangible out, whereas some countries seem to receive more money from the EU than they put in. Depending how much regard an individual has for the benefit of helping others, and whether the intangibles are recognised as worth the cost.
2. Another big one is the creeping los of sovereignty, the EU seemingly moving inexorably towards a single nation, “united states of Europe” perhaps, and don’t like the changes that imposes on us, potentially taking away or at least diluting what makes us British, and with it losing aspects of what is seen to be our freedom.

The second of those is one that concerns me, and if we were being asked if we wanted to join the EU, with that side of things clearly on the table, I might say no - but to me, being in the EU already, rather than leave, Britain should be expending serious effort to showing others what may be seen as wrong with this trend, and find a way harmoniously of agreeing what a good Europe would look like while allowing member states to retain their own character freedoms.

What exactly is frightening about a "USE"? Somewhat funny to hear that from a citizen of 'Great Britain' being something of a 'United States' (of Britain) too...

zikarus posted:

Could someone explain to a european mainland citizen what makes the Brexiteers think they would be better off on their own in todays globalized world of Trumps, Putins and Erdogans? In short what exactly weighs heavy enough to justify a vote to leave the EU despite the fact that this organization has made possible 70+ years of peace in Europe?

It may actually be worth reading the opening page or so of this thread, when the upcoming referendum was being discussed, and the mixture of lack of knowledge and varied beliefs were was evident - and that was before the campaign to stir people to vote to leave, and counter-campain not to leave, started, with all the distortions, unsubstantiated assumptions, misleading or possibly deliberately false claims that then ensued.

TOBYJUG posted:

People didn't vote to leave, that's the thing. 

For me, and many others, it was one week on the news that this vote was going to take place for everyone.  Almost the next week the vote was over and " everyone" had voted.   I didn't vote because in truth I didn't know what I was voting for, I didn't even know what Brexit meant as a word until after the fact. 

If it was organised that the public had a year or two to consider ? But it didn't happen like that.

Oops, that sounds a bit frightening. True? Hard to believe that such a cutting edge decision would not have been discussed for months at least. Never understood btw why it was possible that this question has been decided without an obligatory 2/3 majority at least. 

Bad information, fear of the foreign, wishful thinking.