Are we sleep-walking out of Europe ?

Innocent Bystander posted:

zikarus posted:

Could someone explain to a european mainland citizen what makes the Brexiteers think they would be better off on their own in todays globalized world of Trumps, Putins and Erdogans? In short what exactly weighs heavy enough to justify a vote to leave the EU despite the fact that this organization has made possible 70+ years of peace in Europe?

It may actually be worth reading the opening page or so of this thread, when the upcoming referendum was being discussed, and the mixture of lack of knowledge and varied beliefs were was evident - and that was before the campaign to stir people to vote to leave, and counter-campain not to leave, started, with all the distortions, unsubstantiated assumptions, misleading or possibly deliberately false claims that then ensued.

I think I understood what was discussed at the time.

I never understood though that all these - imo - trivialities / mostly irrelevancies or at least subsidiaries (?) were able to overrule the big picture in the end... 

Beachcomber posted:

Bad information, fear of the foreign, wishful thinking.

Is that really heavy enough? 

(My question addresses especially the Brexiteers btw)

zikarus posted:

What exactly is frightening about a "USE"? Somewhat funny to hear that from a citizen of 'Great Britain' being something of a 'United States' (of Britain) too...

Not frightening, but maybe seen by people as not having the values or character that they like.

For me, I rather like being British. (Though with some things in recent years I have not always been proud to admit to being British.) And, I like the French to be French, Italians Italian, Germans German etc.  If we were all one homogenous lot, the only thing of interest travelling would be whether the weather is better, wheras now I can see and learn from and enjoy meeting people from different cultures. 

As for UK, yes you are right - but it has been essentially lime that for so long that it is the Britain I, and those of my ancestors that were British, grew up in over generations, with only a slow evolution. Also, arguably at least, and some will disagree, some parts of the UK may be rather too small to prosper on their own in the world, whereas Britain is large enough.

Maybe if USE were to happen over a couple of centuries, in with small steps each generation, it would go unnoticed, and I can’t say categorically that it would be a bad thing. Indeed, that is misleading, the states of Europe united where we are united in promoting peace and harmony and prosperity, and weeding out violence and intolerance poverty would in my view be a very Good Thing - so maybe that is what the EU should aspire to become, the SEU, not USE.

zikarus posted:

TOBYJUG posted:

People didn't vote to leave, that's the thing. 

For me, and many others, it was one week on the news that this vote was going to take place for everyone.  Almost the next week the vote was over and " everyone" had voted.   I didn't vote because in truth I didn't know what I was voting for, I didn't even know what Brexit meant as a word until after the fact. 

If it was organised that the public had a year or two to consider ? But it didn't happen like that.

Oops, that sounds a bit frightening. True? Hard to believe that such a cutting edge decision would not have been discussed for months at least. Never understood btw why it was possible that this question has been decided without an obligatory 2/3 majority at least. 

I think many of us didn’t understand why it was rushed - I got the impression it was a political ruse by the UK’s parliamentary party in power at the time, thinking that there was no way the answer would be to leave, but hoping to gain benefit from having put it to a vote - but they hadn’t taken it seriously enough, nor gauged the amount of ill will against them, the party, and leadership, that caused people to vote ‘leave’ just to shock the Government. 

Brexiteers will deny that, but of all all people I know personally who voted ‘leave’, every one did not expect or want that to happen, and were horribly shocked when the result was announced. I believe the swing to “leave” was purely the result of there being so many such people, though of course there is no measure of that.

I suspect that if a “please confirm” referendum were to be offered now, there would be an overwhelming majority saying no. It is a pity the EU itself does not insist on such a vote! (Now that really would be anathema to people like Resurrection, already terrified in case it happens.)

Resurrection posted:

Duncan Mann posted:

Resurrection posted:

 You can argue about the historical context of the Referendum, but that time has passed and you really are just whistling in the wind if you think that your 50 shades of grey opinions are going to change a single thing. 

An afraid your illusionary bubble has been well and truly burst!

Nope. Never had any illusions - as I said earlier in this thread "I suspect that TM will ultimately be forced to back down on the customs union, though we will be out of the EU in name." Sounds pretty realistic to me - I voted Remain, I accept that Article 50 will be notionally implemented - though the bit about the customs union might be pretty scary for you if TM loses the coming Commons face off with her saner MPs who are not willing to trash British industry on the altar of extreme right-wing ideology. TM always follows the line of least resistance, so it will be fun to see her squirm. 

I see, you believe that the Remain Cabal have the levers of power and that they can force their demands not only on the majority who voted to Leave the EU but also have the PM under their control.

Sounds to me that the EU has worked its magic in separating state control from the electorate to a directorate answerable only to itself and its self belief. Not impressed with your Orwellian society or your imaginary right wing excuses for power grabbing. 

I'm sorry Resurrection, I've read your comment several times and still find it incoherent - but I'll have a go at replying. 

Seems to me that the people who are forcing their demands on the British electorate are the neoliberal minority of the Tory party who have hijacked the political agenda in recent years in their monomaniacal pursuit of Brexit. It is widely understood that the majority of Tory MPs (indeed MPs of all parties) are not avidly in favour of what has been termed hard Brexit. Since the referendum, however, the circa 21 MPs of the European Research Group chaired by Jacob Rees-Mogg have been able to exert undue influence on TM, and thus government policy. Right now, I'd say that their views seem to be picking up where UKIP left off. Their views do not represent the mainstream views of the UK populace. They have been able to exert this influence through the threat of pulling the rug from under the Tory Party leader of the day - be that DC or TM. Unity  has been the absolute priority for the leadership of the Tory Party as the expense of practically every other policy development since the coalition government of 2010. DC wouldn't have foisted the referendum upon the UK if it hadn't been for the malign influence of both UKIP and the ERG. They are the right-wingers here! For what it's worth, I've never been accused of being right-wing in my life, so that's a novel experience...

I DO accept that the EU is badly in need of becoming more democratically accountable, and there's lots as aspects of its bureaucracy I dislike - but the right wing press here in the UK has done a pretty good job of demonising it as an entity. The more astute among us will use myth-busting websites to debunk many of the myths perpetuated about the EU, but the less politically-savvy (or those with lives too busy to have time) end up buying into this demonisation - or sitting on the fence and not voting.

But in the round, the EU has been a force for good, and we would be better off being in it and democratically pushing for reform than out of it and effectively losing any control over our destiny. Like it or not, we will have regulatory ties to the EU for the foreseeable future, as that is where our main markets lie, and where our cultural ties are strongest. 

Innocent Bystander posted:

zikarus posted:

What exactly is frightening about a "USE"? Somewhat funny to hear that from a citizen of 'Great Britain' being something of a 'United States' (of Britain) too...

Not frightening, but maybe seen by people as not having the values or character that they like.

For me, I rather like being British. (Though with some things in recent years I have not always been proud to admit to being British.) And, I like the French to be French, Italians Italian, Germans German etc.  If we were all one homogenous lot, the only thing of interest travelling would be whether the weather is better, wheras now I can see and learn from and enjoy meeting people from different cultures. 

As for UK, yes you are right - but it has been essentially lime that for so long that it is the Britain I, and those of my ancestors that were British, grew up in over generations, with only a slow evolution. Also, arguably at least, and some will disagree, some parts of the UK may be rather too small to prosper on their own in the world, whereas Britain is large enough.

Maybe if USE were to happen over a couple of centuries, in with small steps each generation, it would go unnoticed, and I can’t say categorically that it would be a bad thing. Indeed, that is misleading, the states of Europe united where we are united in promoting peace and harmony and prosperity, and weeding out violence and intolerance poverty would in my view be a very Good Thing - so maybe that is what the EU should aspire to become, the SEU, not USE.

 

We may call it USE or SEU or whatever suitable. The process you describe as wishful, I guess, has nevertheless to begin somewhen, no? And luckily enough it already started 60+ years ago in Rome and I think we have all maintained our pecularities since then? Isn't that slow enough? Where does your fear come from you could loose your identity in the near future? Don't see that. Your folks from Wales, Scotland, Ireland etc have all experienced that you do not (have to) loose your identity over a period of hundreds of years....

You are british whether in the EU or not, but you (in the sense of the British people) have shortsightedly put in danger a process that needs to survive many generations... For what reason?

zikarus posted:

TOBYJUG posted:

People didn't vote to leave, that's the thing. 

For me, and many others, it was one week on the news that this vote was going to take place for everyone.  Almost the next week the vote was over and " everyone" had voted.   I didn't vote because in truth I didn't know what I was voting for, I didn't even know what Brexit meant as a word until after the fact. 

If it was organised that the public had a year or two to consider ? But it didn't happen like that.

Oops, that sounds a bit frightening. True? Hard to believe that such a cutting edge decision would not have been discussed for months at least. Never understood btw why it was possible that this question has been decided without an obligatory 2/3 majority at least. 

Yes, and I am aiming for that to be the case if we are to have a repeal Referendum.

Probably better for us all to get nearer the United States of the World, with its one political and police state to govern us all.

Only then will the lizard overlords show us their teeth.

TOBYJUG posted:

Probably better for us all to get nearer the United States of the World, with its one political and police state to govern us all.

Only then will the lizard overlords show us their teeth.

Being a human being you will unlikely experience this.... :-)

Innocent Bystander posted:

I suspect that if a “please confirm” referendum were to be offered now, there would be an overwhelming majority saying no. It is a pity the EU itself does not insist on such a vote! (Now that really would be anathema to people like Resurrection, already terrified in case it happens.)

Of course that the EU doesn't impose any such rules is proof that, despite all the Leave campaigners would have you believe, the EU doesn't impose any rule on a nation which undermines its soverignty.

zikarus posted:

TOBYJUG posted:

Probably better for us all to get nearer the United States of the World, with its one political and police state to govern us all.

Only then will the lizard overlords show us their teeth.

You will not experience this.... :-)

Xenophobia isn't just an earthly thing, why do you think the universe is expanding ?

zikarus posted:

 

We may call it USE or SEU or whatever suitable. The process you describe as wishful, I guess, has nevertheless to begin somewhen, no? And luckily enough it already started 60+ years ago in Rome and I think we have all maintained our pecularities since then? Isn't that slow enough? Where does your fear come from you could loose your identity in the near future? Don't see that. Your folks from Wales, Scotland, Ireland etc have all experienced that you do not (have to) loose your identity over a period of hundreds of years....

You are british whether in the EU or not, but you (in the sense of the British people) have shortsightedly put in danger a process that needs to survive many generations... For what reason?

With regard to your last point, I wish I knew - My own vote was not to leave...

I don’t claim to have sufficient knowledge to argue strongly on the soverignty issue without researching detsil more, however I can offer some xamples of negatives (thoug  I don’t claim deep knowledge of these, just going on in the background)

The European Court of Justice, imposing decisions opposite to the British justice system and British law (though I don’t pretend to have followed detail).

Requiring Britain to give the same rights regarding social benefits (housing etc) to migrants from other EU countries instantly, or almost instantly, upon entry to the country, despite the fact the systems were set up and funded over through the contributions of long-term residents.

There also appears to be a powerhouse in Brussels that it seems Britain has little ability to sway, though maybe that is our fault for not taking the roles of MEPs seriously enough for decades, instead buffoons like Nigel Farrage getting in.

TOBYJUG posted:

zikarus posted:

TOBYJUG posted:

Probably better for us all to get nearer the United States of the World, with its one political and police state to govern us all.

Only then will the lizard overlords show us their teeth.

You will not experience this.... :-)

Xenophobia isn't just an earthly thing, why do you think the universe is expanding ?

Is it?

zikarus posted:

Could someone explain to a european mainland citizen what makes the Brexiteers think they would be better off on their own in todays globalized world of Trumps, Putins and Erdogans? In short what exactly weighs heavy enough to justify a vote to leave the EU despite the fact that this organization has made possible 70+ years of peace in Europe?

Hi Zikarus, and welcome to this thread! The question you ask is a good one, and I have a close friend who happens to be a German choosing to live in the UK, who has asked much the same question! I struggled to answer him, and I suspect I'll struggle to answer you too. Essentially, though, I don't believe that the decision to leave IS justified, and this is a retrograde step for the UK. It is curious that a heavy burden has been borne in the 20th century in terms of loss of lives and treasury by the UK, in maintaining peace in Europe - yet the message we are sending by Brexit is that we now want to be in splendid isolation. In terms of the rationale for Brexit, others have already come back to you with suggestions, and they all have validity. Hopefully you'll get a feel for the rationale from this thread, which is lively and has contributors coming from many very different perspectives.

For a historical perspective, you could do worse than reading Margaret Thatcher's speech at the Hague in 1992. I am no fan of Thatcher, but she very clearly articulated the many flaws within the European political model and proposed future development - and almost all of her predictions about the fallout from these have come true. I'd urge you to read it - forum rules don't allow a weblink - but Google "Margaret Thatcher Hague speech 1992" and take a look.

You will see from this that euroscepticism was alive and well over 25 years ago, so this is hardly a recent phenomenon.  

For me, I feel fear of the foreigner has had the most visceral effect on public opinion - I am convinced that the thing that swung the vote to Brexit in the final weeks leading up to the referendum was Frau Merkel's decision to admit 1m+ "refugees" to Germany. This sent a clear signal that EU policy was out of control - given that the decision was made unilaterally and without reference to Germany's EU partners, and at a time of heightened tension due to ISIL terrorism. Those amongst the electorate who were already anxious about immigration became no doubt terrified about uncontrolled waves of immigration, with policy being made on the hoof by unaccountable (to them) foreign leaders. Frankly, whilst sympathetic to the plight of genuine refugees, I was stunned that Frau Merkel felt that she had the right to unilaterally make this decision, given that an immigrant to Germany is an immigrant to the EU, and would in time be able settle anywhere within the EU. In terms of realpolitik, she made the decision because she could - because Germany carries disproportionate influence in the EU, and it suited Germany's interests. This was an unpalatable message to the UK.

I am sad that the UK is leaving the EU, as I think we'd be better off within the union, seeking to reform it. But we are where we are, and I can but hope that our relations with our European neighbours are not too badly damaged as a consequence, once the unholy mess that is Brexit has been and gone.

Thank you Duncan for your thoughts and the hint to the speech of MT - will look it up and have a read... 

All the explanations I have read or heard of - including yours - are fully reasonable.

But forgive me and do not take it as inpolite that I would still like to hear a Brexiters voice telling me his reason to answer my specific question(s).

zikarus posted:

Thank you Duncan for your thoughts and the hint to the speech of MT - will look it up and have a read... 

All the explanations I have read or heard of - including yours - are fully reasonable.

But forgive me and do not take it as inpolite that I would still like to hear a Brexiters voice telling me his reason to answer my specific question(s).

I dont know, perhaps I'm a brexiter,   even the teachers teaching the children are taught how to imprint rubbish, without standing up to what they believe in.  It's not political, it runs far deeper than that. No one knows nothing to believe nothing.   Just how the government likes it.

zikarus posted:

.

But forgive me and do not take it as inpolite that I would still like to hear a Brexiters voice telling me his reason to answer my specific question(s).

Your repeated invitations seem to be passing [@mention:70553749335967768] by - he must know there is no justifiable reason, so has gone off to hide in a corner...

I am stunned that the EU was ever intended to be anything more than a free trade zone.  Even a currency union is too much.  These are vastly different countries - they've fought wars with each other for a good part of 2000 years.  I'm all for taking care of your part of the world - you can't fix other's problems but you should own yours - and have the power to correct them.  Who would devise or approve a system that takes that away?

zikarus posted:

Thank you Duncan for your thoughts and the hint to the speech of MT - will look it up and have a read... 

All the explanations I have read or heard of - including yours - are fully reasonable.

But forgive me and do not take it as inpolite that I would still like to hear a Brexiters voice telling me his reason to answer my specific question(s).

My pleasure, zikarus - and I'm sure our resident Uber-Brexiter, Resurrection, will be along any minute to enlighten you from his perspective - I'm looking forward to that actually!

Resurrection posted:

zikarus posted:

Oops, that sounds a bit frightening. True? Hard to believe that such a cutting edge decision would not have been discussed for months at least. Never understood btw why it was possible that this question has been decided without an obligatory 2/3 majority at least. 

Yes, and I am aiming for that to be the case if we are to have a repeal Referendum.

Not in the confirm it referendum? That’s a surprise!

incidentally, where in your wild imagination did you dream up that anyone would seek a “lets rejoin” referendum? 

Innocent Bystander posted:

Resurrection posted:

zikarus posted:

Oops, that sounds a bit frightening. True? Hard to believe that such a cutting edge decision would not have been discussed for months at least. Never understood btw why it was possible that this question has been decided without an obligatory 2/3 majority at least. 

Yes, and I am aiming for that to be the case if we are to have a repeal Referendum.

Not in the confirm it referendum? That’s a surprise!

 

incidentally, where in your wild imagination did you dream up that anyone would seek a “lets rejoin” referendum? 

Yes, I am converted to the need for a 66% majority for any future Referendum dealing with the EU, a stance I am sure will meet with you Remsiners. 

You will need the rejoin Referendum as we are leaving the EU, or did you not know? 

hastings posted:

I am stunned that the EU was ever intended to be anything more than a free trade zone.  Even a currency union is too much.  These are vastly different countries - they've fought wars with each other for a good part of 2000 years.  I'm all for taking care of your part of the world - you can't fix other's problems but you should own yours - and have the power to correct them.  Who would devise or approve a system that takes that away?

Ha! Ha! You're going to have a Battle on your hands and possibly an arrow in the eye for your troubles. We do not correct anyone's problems, especially not our own but we are very happy to import everyone else's.

We don't need a rejoin referendum, all we need is a confirmation referendum; then a rejoin referendum will be unnecessary as we won't be leaving after that!  

Huge posted:

We don't need a rejoin referendum, all we need is a confirmation referendum; then a rejoin referendum will be unnecessary as we won't be leaving after that!  

Ah, you're such a card Huge.

Please don't wake him, no, don't shake him, leave him where he is, he's only dreaming! My one musical allusion for the day. 

I don't think we are going to need a re-join referendum either but for a different reason. The way things are going I think we're going to exit but most things will actually stay the same (BINO).  The government will declare victory saying they've delivered what the people voted for while remaining in the customs union and no material change between NI and Eire etc etc which will preserve many jobs and the economy.  The only people who will be unhappy will be the nut cases in the Tory party (who will never be satisfied anyway), and those Brexiteers who know enough about the issues to understand what has really happened.