Are we sleep-walking out of Europe ?

Probably better for us all to get nearer the United States of the World, with its one political and police state to govern us all.

Only then will the lizard overlords show us their teeth.

TOBYJUG posted:

Probably better for us all to get nearer the United States of the World, with its one political and police state to govern us all.

Only then will the lizard overlords show us their teeth.

Being a human being you will unlikely experience this.... :-)

Innocent Bystander posted:

I suspect that if a “please confirm” referendum were to be offered now, there would be an overwhelming majority saying no. It is a pity the EU itself does not insist on such a vote! (Now that really would be anathema to people like Resurrection, already terrified in case it happens.)

Of course that the EU doesn't impose any such rules is proof that, despite all the Leave campaigners would have you believe, the EU doesn't impose any rule on a nation which undermines its soverignty.

zikarus posted:

TOBYJUG posted:

Probably better for us all to get nearer the United States of the World, with its one political and police state to govern us all.

Only then will the lizard overlords show us their teeth.

You will not experience this.... :-)

Xenophobia isn't just an earthly thing, why do you think the universe is expanding ?

zikarus posted:

 

We may call it USE or SEU or whatever suitable. The process you describe as wishful, I guess, has nevertheless to begin somewhen, no? And luckily enough it already started 60+ years ago in Rome and I think we have all maintained our pecularities since then? Isn't that slow enough? Where does your fear come from you could loose your identity in the near future? Don't see that. Your folks from Wales, Scotland, Ireland etc have all experienced that you do not (have to) loose your identity over a period of hundreds of years....

You are british whether in the EU or not, but you (in the sense of the British people) have shortsightedly put in danger a process that needs to survive many generations... For what reason?

With regard to your last point, I wish I knew - My own vote was not to leave...

I don’t claim to have sufficient knowledge to argue strongly on the soverignty issue without researching detsil more, however I can offer some xamples of negatives (thoug  I don’t claim deep knowledge of these, just going on in the background)

The European Court of Justice, imposing decisions opposite to the British justice system and British law (though I don’t pretend to have followed detail).

Requiring Britain to give the same rights regarding social benefits (housing etc) to migrants from other EU countries instantly, or almost instantly, upon entry to the country, despite the fact the systems were set up and funded over through the contributions of long-term residents.

There also appears to be a powerhouse in Brussels that it seems Britain has little ability to sway, though maybe that is our fault for not taking the roles of MEPs seriously enough for decades, instead buffoons like Nigel Farrage getting in.

TOBYJUG posted:

zikarus posted:

TOBYJUG posted:

Probably better for us all to get nearer the United States of the World, with its one political and police state to govern us all.

Only then will the lizard overlords show us their teeth.

You will not experience this.... :-)

Xenophobia isn't just an earthly thing, why do you think the universe is expanding ?

Is it?

zikarus posted:

Could someone explain to a european mainland citizen what makes the Brexiteers think they would be better off on their own in todays globalized world of Trumps, Putins and Erdogans? In short what exactly weighs heavy enough to justify a vote to leave the EU despite the fact that this organization has made possible 70+ years of peace in Europe?

Hi Zikarus, and welcome to this thread! The question you ask is a good one, and I have a close friend who happens to be a German choosing to live in the UK, who has asked much the same question! I struggled to answer him, and I suspect I'll struggle to answer you too. Essentially, though, I don't believe that the decision to leave IS justified, and this is a retrograde step for the UK. It is curious that a heavy burden has been borne in the 20th century in terms of loss of lives and treasury by the UK, in maintaining peace in Europe - yet the message we are sending by Brexit is that we now want to be in splendid isolation. In terms of the rationale for Brexit, others have already come back to you with suggestions, and they all have validity. Hopefully you'll get a feel for the rationale from this thread, which is lively and has contributors coming from many very different perspectives.

For a historical perspective, you could do worse than reading Margaret Thatcher's speech at the Hague in 1992. I am no fan of Thatcher, but she very clearly articulated the many flaws within the European political model and proposed future development - and almost all of her predictions about the fallout from these have come true. I'd urge you to read it - forum rules don't allow a weblink - but Google "Margaret Thatcher Hague speech 1992" and take a look.

You will see from this that euroscepticism was alive and well over 25 years ago, so this is hardly a recent phenomenon.  

For me, I feel fear of the foreigner has had the most visceral effect on public opinion - I am convinced that the thing that swung the vote to Brexit in the final weeks leading up to the referendum was Frau Merkel's decision to admit 1m+ "refugees" to Germany. This sent a clear signal that EU policy was out of control - given that the decision was made unilaterally and without reference to Germany's EU partners, and at a time of heightened tension due to ISIL terrorism. Those amongst the electorate who were already anxious about immigration became no doubt terrified about uncontrolled waves of immigration, with policy being made on the hoof by unaccountable (to them) foreign leaders. Frankly, whilst sympathetic to the plight of genuine refugees, I was stunned that Frau Merkel felt that she had the right to unilaterally make this decision, given that an immigrant to Germany is an immigrant to the EU, and would in time be able settle anywhere within the EU. In terms of realpolitik, she made the decision because she could - because Germany carries disproportionate influence in the EU, and it suited Germany's interests. This was an unpalatable message to the UK.

I am sad that the UK is leaving the EU, as I think we'd be better off within the union, seeking to reform it. But we are where we are, and I can but hope that our relations with our European neighbours are not too badly damaged as a consequence, once the unholy mess that is Brexit has been and gone.

Thank you Duncan for your thoughts and the hint to the speech of MT - will look it up and have a read... 

All the explanations I have read or heard of - including yours - are fully reasonable.

But forgive me and do not take it as inpolite that I would still like to hear a Brexiters voice telling me his reason to answer my specific question(s).

zikarus posted:

Thank you Duncan for your thoughts and the hint to the speech of MT - will look it up and have a read... 

All the explanations I have read or heard of - including yours - are fully reasonable.

But forgive me and do not take it as inpolite that I would still like to hear a Brexiters voice telling me his reason to answer my specific question(s).

I dont know, perhaps I'm a brexiter,   even the teachers teaching the children are taught how to imprint rubbish, without standing up to what they believe in.  It's not political, it runs far deeper than that. No one knows nothing to believe nothing.   Just how the government likes it.

zikarus posted:

.

But forgive me and do not take it as inpolite that I would still like to hear a Brexiters voice telling me his reason to answer my specific question(s).

Your repeated invitations seem to be passing [@mention:70553749335967768] by - he must know there is no justifiable reason, so has gone off to hide in a corner...

I am stunned that the EU was ever intended to be anything more than a free trade zone.  Even a currency union is too much.  These are vastly different countries - they've fought wars with each other for a good part of 2000 years.  I'm all for taking care of your part of the world - you can't fix other's problems but you should own yours - and have the power to correct them.  Who would devise or approve a system that takes that away?

zikarus posted:

Thank you Duncan for your thoughts and the hint to the speech of MT - will look it up and have a read... 

All the explanations I have read or heard of - including yours - are fully reasonable.

But forgive me and do not take it as inpolite that I would still like to hear a Brexiters voice telling me his reason to answer my specific question(s).

My pleasure, zikarus - and I'm sure our resident Uber-Brexiter, Resurrection, will be along any minute to enlighten you from his perspective - I'm looking forward to that actually!

Resurrection posted:

zikarus posted:

Oops, that sounds a bit frightening. True? Hard to believe that such a cutting edge decision would not have been discussed for months at least. Never understood btw why it was possible that this question has been decided without an obligatory 2/3 majority at least. 

Yes, and I am aiming for that to be the case if we are to have a repeal Referendum.

Not in the confirm it referendum? That’s a surprise!

incidentally, where in your wild imagination did you dream up that anyone would seek a “lets rejoin” referendum? 

Innocent Bystander posted:

Resurrection posted:

zikarus posted:

Oops, that sounds a bit frightening. True? Hard to believe that such a cutting edge decision would not have been discussed for months at least. Never understood btw why it was possible that this question has been decided without an obligatory 2/3 majority at least. 

Yes, and I am aiming for that to be the case if we are to have a repeal Referendum.

Not in the confirm it referendum? That’s a surprise!

 

incidentally, where in your wild imagination did you dream up that anyone would seek a “lets rejoin” referendum? 

Yes, I am converted to the need for a 66% majority for any future Referendum dealing with the EU, a stance I am sure will meet with you Remsiners. 

You will need the rejoin Referendum as we are leaving the EU, or did you not know? 

hastings posted:

I am stunned that the EU was ever intended to be anything more than a free trade zone.  Even a currency union is too much.  These are vastly different countries - they've fought wars with each other for a good part of 2000 years.  I'm all for taking care of your part of the world - you can't fix other's problems but you should own yours - and have the power to correct them.  Who would devise or approve a system that takes that away?

Ha! Ha! You're going to have a Battle on your hands and possibly an arrow in the eye for your troubles. We do not correct anyone's problems, especially not our own but we are very happy to import everyone else's.

We don't need a rejoin referendum, all we need is a confirmation referendum; then a rejoin referendum will be unnecessary as we won't be leaving after that!  

Huge posted:

We don't need a rejoin referendum, all we need is a confirmation referendum; then a rejoin referendum will be unnecessary as we won't be leaving after that!  

Ah, you're such a card Huge.

Please don't wake him, no, don't shake him, leave him where he is, he's only dreaming! My one musical allusion for the day. 

I don't think we are going to need a re-join referendum either but for a different reason. The way things are going I think we're going to exit but most things will actually stay the same (BINO).  The government will declare victory saying they've delivered what the people voted for while remaining in the customs union and no material change between NI and Eire etc etc which will preserve many jobs and the economy.  The only people who will be unhappy will be the nut cases in the Tory party (who will never be satisfied anyway), and those Brexiteers who know enough about the issues to understand what has really happened.     

Resurrection posted:

We would continue to spell ‘organise’ the correct way and could also continue to be a member of NATO, the real defence, sic, of Europe.

The spelling of organize will be mandated by a future trade agreement with America :-)

Eloise posted:

Resurrection posted:

We would continue to spell ‘organise’ the correct way and could also continue to be a member of NATO, the real defence, sic, of Europe.

The spelling of organize will be mandated by a future trade agreement with America :-)

And we will have to deal in US Gallons and US Tons.

.......and Naim equipment will have to be manufactured primarily for 110 V/60hz with a 240/50hz option .............

Resurrection posted:

Innocent Bystander posted: 

incidentally, where in your wild imagination did you dream up that anyone would seek a “lets rejoin” referendum? 

Yes, I am converted to the need for a 66% majority for any future Referendum dealing with the EU, a stance I am sure will meet with you Remsiners. 

You will need the rejoin Referendum as we are leaving the EU, or did you not know? 

What Huge said.

But if Britain were actually to leave, with all the cost and industries moved away or closed, everybody struggling, lime a second-world country, why on earth would anyone even think of re-joining, with the additional cost that would entail, just to become a minor bit-player? That would be like admitting Brexit was foolish in the extreme. ...oh, so that is what you mean, you picture demands for a re-entry referendum because everyone who hasn’t already come to their senses will inevitably realise the abject stupidity of Brexit once the deed is done.

Don Atkinson posted:

Eloise posted:

Resurrection posted:

We would continue to spell ‘organise’ the correct way and could also continue to be a member of NATO, the real defence, sic, of Europe.

The spelling of organize will be mandated by a future trade agreement with America :-)

And we will have to deal in US Gallons and US Tons.

.......and Naim equipment will have to be manufactured primarily for 110 V/60hz with a 240/50hz option .............

And US pints of cold beer and whisky with an e

...and having to call our national sport "soccer". 

Well Resurrection, if you leave the door wide open are you surprised that I walk in?

After all it's my civic duty to check up on you, to see if you've died or if you just need help!  

(Just couldn't resist that!)

Huge posted:

Well Resurrection, if you leave the door wide open are you surprised that I walk in?

After all it's my civic duty to check up on you, to see if you've died or if you just need help!  

(Just couldn't resist that!)

Well, it's not the former because I just checked, and if it appears that I have gone AWOL it is usually because you lucky people have to wait with baited breath until the editor has proof read what pearls of wisdom I am about to bestow upon you and if they are just too good for the likes of you, Huge, I am afraid  just don't get to see them. As for help, I'm not hiring, sorry! ????