Are we sleep-walking out of Europe ?

Innocent Bystander posted:

William posted:

And then we could decide the whole thing not by referendum but by a penalty shoot-out.  

What is the word ‘penalty’ doing in that sentence?

Yes IB, let’s cut straight to the main event! After all isn’t that what Brexit is all about. ????

William posted:

Zikarus thank you. I don‘t think that people in the UK really know how perplexed Europeans are that so many people England do not want to work TOGETHER with the rest of Europe. Yes maybe England should leave the UK as well!

But is it really so many people in England? 17.4 million in UK voted to leave, we keep being reminded by Resurrection, but that was on the back of a campaign based on a load of hype and misleading information, pedalled by activists and the gutter press, with a background of dissatisfaction with UK Government leading people to use the Brexit referendum as a tool to get at Government, and shake them, never intending it to result in a majority for Brexit. If the referendum were re-run today, with the benefit of greater knowledge, and the falsehoods of the original campaign exposed,  I doubt that much more than half that number would say “leave” (which is why Resurrection is petrified of a confirmation referendum).

I know for sure of two people, and I've not spoke to many people about Brexit, that said they voted leave as a protest vote against the Government.

 I doubt that much more than half that number would say “leave” (which is why Resurrection is petrified of a confirmation referendum).

 

Ah, what's it like in that bubble of illusion with its rarified atmosphere that keeps you high enough to live with such false hope? I don't know how many times I have to tell you, IB, once we re completely through Brexit you can go looking for your next referendum, of which I have no fear. After all, you will never reach the 66% of votes you will need to win. 

Innocent Bystander posted:

William posted:

And then we could decide the whole thing not by referendum but by a penalty shoot-out.  

What is the word ‘penalty’ doing in that sentence?

At the Westminster corral?

Resurrection posted:

 I doubt that much more than half that number would say “leave” (which is why Resurrection is petrified of a confirmation referendum).

 

Ah, what's it like in that bubble of illusion with its rarified atmosphere that keeps you high enough to live with such false hope? I don't know how many times I have to tell you, IB, once we re completely through Brexit you can go looking for your next referendum, of which I have no fear. After all, you will never reach the 66% of votes you will need to win. 

If you don’t know how many times you have said I can go looking for a referndum after Brexit, I’ll refresh your memory: none. You did mention a referendum to rejoin once or possibly twice yesterday, so maybe that is what you meant.

 do note note that you have no fear of a referendum after Brexit, indeed you said that yesterday, and I have never suggested you are - please refer to my observation on that specific matter yesterday, after you indicated that 66% would be acceptable to you as the proportion to carry a vote to rejoin - to which I note you didn’t respond.

What you clearly ARE afraid of is a confirmation referendum before actually Brexiting, and I fully understand that, because it would yield a very strong vote against Brexit, revealing the true figure wanting it to be far fewer than the 17.4 million who stuck leave on their ballot papers in after that farce of a referendum campaign.

Resurrection posted:

Oh, and I did respond to his question: left to its own devices the Erdogahs and Putins would make mincemeat of the EU. Their problem resides with NATO and its US backbone. 

Just to be a pedant... but (assuming you meant Erdoğan) Turkey is a member of NATO and has been since 1952.

Innocent Bystander posted:

Resurrection posted:

 I doubt that much more than half that number would say “leave” (which is why Resurrection is petrified of a confirmation referendum).

 

Ah, what's it like in that bubble of illusion with its rarified atmosphere that keeps you high enough to live with such false hope? I don't know how many times I have to tell you, IB, once we re completely through Brexit you can go looking for your next referendum, of which I have no fear. After all, you will never reach the 66% of votes you will need to win. 

If you don’t know how many times you have said I can go looking for a referndum after Brexit, I’ll refresh your memory: none. You did mention a referendum to rejoin once or possibly twice yesterday, so maybe that is what you meant.

 do note note that you have no fear of a referendum after Brexit, indeed you said that yesterday, and I have never suggested you are - please refer to my observation on that specific matter yesterday, after you indicated that 66% would be acceptable to you as the proportion to carry a vote to rejoin - to which I note you didn’t respond.

What you clearly ARE afraid of is a confirmation referendum before actually Brexiting, and I fully understand that, because it would yield a very strong vote against Brexit, revealing the true figure wanting it to be far fewer than the 17.4 million who stuck leave on their ballot papers in after that farce of a referendum campaign.

Stop using so many words. I’m in the pub and it’s too long and boring to read! ????

Eloise posted:

Resurrection posted:

Oh, and I did respond to his question: left to its own devices the Erdogahs and Putins would make mincemeat of the EU. Their problem resides with NATO and its US backbone. 

Just to be a pedant... but (assuming you meant Erdoğan) Turkey is a member of NATO and has been since 1952.

Yes, a complete and utter aberration!

Resurrection posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

Resurrection posted:

 I doubt that much more than half that number would say “leave” (which is why Resurrection is petrified of a confirmation referendum).

 

Ah, what's it like in that bubble of illusion with its rarified atmosphere that keeps you high enough to live with such false hope? I don't know how many times I have to tell you, IB, once we re completely through Brexit you can go looking for your next referendum, of which I have no fear. After all, you will never reach the 66% of votes you will need to win. 

If you don’t know how many times you have said I can go looking for a referndum after Brexit, I’ll refresh your memory: none. You did mention a referendum to rejoin once or possibly twice yesterday, so maybe that is what you meant.

 do note note that you have no fear of a referendum after Brexit, indeed you said that yesterday, and I have never suggested you are - please refer to my observation on that specific matter yesterday, after you indicated that 66% would be acceptable to you as the proportion to carry a vote to rejoin - to which I note you didn’t respond.

What you clearly ARE afraid of is a confirmation referendum before actually Brexiting, and I fully understand that, because it would yield a very strong vote against Brexit, revealing the true figure wanting it to be far fewer than the 17.4 million who stuck leave on their ballot papers in after that farce of a referendum campaign.

Stop using so many words. I’m in the pub and it’s too long and boring to read! ????

OK: (for more detail read last)

1. None
2. You expect  a re-entry referendum because you know how badly people will be hit
3. You really are TERRIFIED of a confirmation referendum

Innocent Bystander posted:

Resurrection posted:

 I doubt that much more than half that number would say “leave” (which is why Resurrection is petrified of a confirmation referendum).

 

Ah, what's it like in that bubble of illusion with its rarified atmosphere that keeps you high enough to live with such false hope? I don't know how many times I have to tell you, IB, once we re completely through Brexit you can go looking for your next referendum, of which I have no fear. After all, you will never reach the 66% of votes you will need to win. 

If you don’t know how many times you have said I can go looking for a referndum after Brexit, I’ll refresh your memory: none. You did mention a referendum to rejoin once or possibly twice yesterday, so maybe that is what you meant.

 do note note that you have no fear of a referendum after Brexit, indeed you said that yesterday, and I have never suggested you are - please refer to my observation on that specific matter yesterday, after you indicated that 66% would be acceptable to you as the proportion to carry a vote to rejoin - to which I note you didn’t respond.

What you clearly ARE afraid of is a confirmation referendum before actually Brexiting, and I fully understand that, because it would yield a very strong vote against Brexit, revealing the true figure wanting it to be far fewer than the 17.4 million who stuck leave on their ballot papers in after that farce of a referendum campaign.

Nope, too many words, please be more concise. My short attention span can’t handle it.

Resurrection posted:

 

...

So your reason for the brexit is exactly what?

Your answer though is interesting as in reducing peace to weapons in the end. The strength of the EU lies indeed far beyond that. Let's call it understanding among nations.  ... 

The EU has its weaknesses, that need to be addressed, no doubt, but what better organisation (hope you like it this way :-) do we have? Whereelse could we (almost all European people) be forced to deal and argue with each other for a better future? What could be wrong about this?

Head back to single states? Not the right direction. I like families and family life. But hey why do the Brexiteers not consequently go down the whole route of their argumentation and fulfill their dream in making 'Little Britain' - or better little England - come true by giving up Wales etc pp? 

Ah so! When I voted in 1975 it was for the EEC and I can assure you that I would vote for that institution again. Unfortunately the original trading pact morphed into an attempted supra-national state and am afraid it is this that I despise. As someone else pointed out, there are many disparate cultures within the European continent and perhaps idealists would like to see them homogenised. Some may argue that this process is worthwhile but obviously am in violent disagreement. The integration of thousands of years of cultural separation is not going to happen no matter how peaceful that process may superficially appear. 

The Greeks, the Italian, the Portuguese have all suffered from the currency harmonisation with their economies still struggling. Nice experiment, shame about the result. A loose economic federation would probably be agreeable but not the grand, political, bureaucratic behemoth that is the EU.

Am not giving up anything as I have lived and worked in Europe and next month I will be off to Bologna for a holiday. I am a committed European but no EUrophile.

Hmh. The struggle of some economies has many different reasons but for sure also a lot to do with an economic federation being much to loose, lacking a harmonized, EU wide tax policy for example. Let us think who opposed to the latter btw. 

Besides that I still don't understand your fear and what makes you think European people are culturally 'disparate'? Traveling through Europe you should have experienced the opposite already. And please decide yourself whether the cultures are disparate or their harmonization (or uniformity as you seem to think) at hand. Can't be both, no? 

But even that aside what would make the EU differ from GB in that respect? The only differences are size or dimension and a few hundreds of years in development. If your ancestors would have followed your thinking there wouldn't even exist a GB that you Brexiteers so desperately try to beware respectively isolate. The problem with isolation is the growing lack of understanding leading to issues that could have been prevented when staying in continuous contact instead (the more intense the better). Just take a look beyond the fence around your front yard. The list has been posted already: Trump Putin Erdogan... 

Echoes of the American political discord entering the Brexit fray. If you are hit by a particularly damaging revelation, then simply go on all out attack of your opponents on another front in order to attempt to distract from your own problems.  

I have just listened to a BBC interview (so it must have been biased or propagating fake news) with Michael Gove, where he had the audacity to claim that the "over the top" criticism of Amber Rudd & Theresa May in respect of the 'Windrush' scandal (and it is a real scandal) has been largely generated by Labour and the left in order to distract from the real scandal which according to him is anti-Semitism in the Labour party. 

Windrush is a massive and incomprehensible real scandal, and one of which I knew very little about until very recently. There can be absolutely no defence against some of the horrendous injustices that have been brought to light over the past few weeks, and the misery and uncertainty that this has caused to the many British Windrush children whose tenure in this country has been so unfairly questioned and whose lives have been thrown into turmoil.  It is absolutely unforgivable to attempt to brush the issue aside by claiming that Amber Rudd and Theresa May have gracious apologised to those affected . Theresa May, after all, initiated the underlying policies that resulted in the scandal during her term as Home Secretary.    

Shame on Michael Gove for his insinuation that the outcry about Windrush is simply as a result of Labour and the left attempting to distract from alleged anti-Semitism in the Labour party. If indeed, a small number of members in the Labour party are found to be genuinely anti-Semitic, I have no doubt they will be identified and expelled. I personally suspect that the headlines generated by the more questionable elements of the right wing press are deliberately exaggerating any real problem by conflating the two separate issues of real anti-Semitism (which is as abhorrent as any racism) and legitimate opposition to the current Israeli Government's policy in the West Bank, which is something entirely different.      

Hmack posted:

Echoes of the American political discord entering the Brexit fray. If you are hit by a particularly damaging revelation, then simply go on all out attack of your opponents on another front in order to attempt to distract from your own problems.  

I have just listened to a BBC interview (so it must have been biased or propagating fake news) with Michael Gove, where he had the audacity to claim that the "over the top" criticism of Amber Rudd & Theresa May in respect of the 'Windrush' scandal (and it is a real scandal) has been largely generated by Labour and the left in order to distract from the real scandal which according to him is anti-Semitism in the Labour party. 

Windrush is a massive and incomprehensible real scandal, and one of which I knew very little about until very recently. There can be absolutely no defence against some of the horrendous injustices that have been brought to light over the past few weeks, and the misery and uncertainty that this has caused to the many British Windrush children whose tenure in this country has been so unfairly questioned and whose lives have been thrown into turmoil.  It is absolutely unforgivable to attempt to brush the issue aside by claiming that Amber Rudd and Theresa May have gracious apologised to those affected . Theresa May, after all, initiated the underlying policies that resulted in the scandal during her term as Home Secretary.    

Shame on Michael Gove for his insinuation that the outcry about Windrush is simply as a result of Labour and the left attempting to distract from alleged anti-Semitism in the Labour party. If indeed, a small number of members in the Labour party are found to be genuinely anti-Semitic, I have no doubt they will be identified and expelled. I personally suspect that the headlines generated by the more questionable elements of the right wing press are deliberately exaggerating any real problem by conflating the two separate issues of real anti-Semitism (which is as abhorrent as any racism) and legitimate opposition to the current Israeli Government's policy in the West Bank, which is something entirely different.      

As usual I am going to court controversy. Windrush, as you rightly say, is a scandal. The scandal is a result of many politicians from both major political parties pretending to get tough with the abuses of immigration that they themselves pretend not to see by avoiding direct confrontation with the issue while pursuing their own agendas whatever they are or were as I have yet to hear a comprehensible definition of what immigration this country really needs or how it is to be controlled and policed properly.

Back to Windrush which, as I say, is a bureaucratic bungle possibly partially perpetrated by a malicious Home Office and or Border Force. Due to targets, malformed legislation, mischief and spite we have a lovely big scandal. However, bureaucratic bungles happen all the time in every country round the world. That bungling may be an inconvenience e.g. a passport request processed too late for you to take that holiday, or it may be the misplacing of medical files resulting in your early demise. You may hold a hierarchy of bureaucratic bungles and how they should be treated but Windrush being exploited for political purposes I find quite distasteful.

We cannot have mass immigration into this country which is a huge political hot potato with  everything being managed by nudges, winks, no structure and all responsibility being avoided by politicians of all hues. 

Resurrection strikes again!

Resurrection posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

Resurrection posted:

 I doubt that much more than half that number would say “leave” (which is why Resurrection is petrified of a confirmation referendum).

 

Ah, what's it like in that bubble of illusion with its rarified atmosphere that keeps you high enough to live with such false hope? I don't know how many times I have to tell you, IB, once we re completely through Brexit you can go looking for your next referendum, of which I have no fear. After all, you will never reach the 66% of votes you will need to win. 

If you don’t know how many times you have said I can go looking for a referndum after Brexit, I’ll refresh your memory: none. You did mention a referendum to rejoin once or possibly twice yesterday, so maybe that is what you meant.

 do note note that you have no fear of a referendum after Brexit, indeed you said that yesterday, and I have never suggested you are - please refer to my observation on that specific matter yesterday, after you indicated that 66% would be acceptable to you as the proportion to carry a vote to rejoin - to which I note you didn’t respond.

What you clearly ARE afraid of is a confirmation referendum before actually Brexiting, and I fully understand that, because it would yield a very strong vote against Brexit, revealing the true figure wanting it to be far fewer than the 17.4 million who stuck leave on their ballot papers in after that farce of a referendum campaign.

Nope, too many words, please be more concise. My short attention span can’t handle it.

Odd aberration, isn’t it: your attention span manages long diatribes spouting ridiculous dogma, but can’t cope when reading something that requires you to recognise facts.

Innocent Bystander posted:

Resurrection posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

Resurrection posted:

 I doubt that much more than half that number would say “leave” (which is why Resurrection is petrified of a confirmation referendum).

 

Ah, what's it like in that bubble of illusion with its rarified atmosphere that keeps you high enough to live with such false hope? I don't know how many times I have to tell you, IB, once we re completely through Brexit you can go looking for your next referendum, of which I have no fear. After all, you will never reach the 66% of votes you will need to win. 

If you don’t know how many times you have said I can go looking for a referndum after Brexit, I’ll refresh your memory: none. You did mention a referendum to rejoin once or possibly twice yesterday, so maybe that is what you meant.

 do note note that you have no fear of a referendum after Brexit, indeed you said that yesterday, and I have never suggested you are - please refer to my observation on that specific matter yesterday, after you indicated that 66% would be acceptable to you as the proportion to carry a vote to rejoin - to which I note you didn’t respond.

What you clearly ARE afraid of is a confirmation referendum before actually Brexiting, and I fully understand that, because it would yield a very strong vote against Brexit, revealing the true figure wanting it to be far fewer than the 17.4 million who stuck leave on their ballot papers in after that farce of a referendum campaign.

Nope, too many words, please be more concise. My short attention span can’t handle it.

Odd aberration, isn’t it: your attention span manages long diatribes spouting ridiculous dogma, but can’t cope when reading something that requires you to recognise facts.

I was in the pub at the time and my attention was focused on foamier things! Now, what were you saying...................?

Oh yes, it was a cut and paste of everything you have said before. I did respond to the Referendum question and did say that post real Brexit you can, should Parliament say so, have another referendum as long as you get 66% of the vote to b able to rejoin the EU (spit!). Might not have been you you directly, but I did say it and this is at least the third time. And you are right, I have no interest or desire for your confirmation Referendum and never will.

Windrush is not a bureaucratic bungle for which officials are to blame, as quite a number of Conservatives are trying to present it. Officials don't make policy, ministers do.  This debacle is simply a manifestation of the policy designed and driven by the former Home Secretary. The climate created in the Home Office and Border Force of targets has been driven by the former Home Secretary and her two former close advisors.  This climate involved regular reports against those targets being reported up to ministers. What seems to embarrass the government today is that this pernicious policy and the measures to enforce it have impacted on some people that are here legally and has become very public, leaving many people uncomfortable with the policy and measures that have been applied that were mostly hidden from view.

The irony is that many people apparently voted for Brexit because they wanted to 'take back control of our borders' and now seemingly don't like to be made aware of what this entails in terms of the actions that the Home Office undertake.   And, of course, it casts considerable doubt on all the assurances being given by ministers about EU citizens already in the UK being treated fairly. Can this government really be trusted to honour those assurances? is a question that I imagine is being asked by many of the people affected and EU negotiators.    

Resurrection posted:

Hmack posted:

Echoes of the American political discord entering the Brexit fray. If you are hit by a particularly damaging revelation, then simply go on all out attack of your opponents on another front in order to attempt to distract from your own problems.  

I have just listened to a BBC interview (so it must have been biased or propagating fake news) with Michael Gove, where he had the audacity to claim that the "over the top" criticism of Amber Rudd & Theresa May in respect of the 'Windrush' scandal (and it is a real scandal) has been largely generated by Labour and the left in order to distract from the real scandal which according to him is anti-Semitism in the Labour party. 

Windrush is a massive and incomprehensible real scandal, and one of which I knew very little about until very recently. There can be absolutely no defence against some of the horrendous injustices that have been brought to light over the past few weeks, and the misery and uncertainty that this has caused to the many British Windrush children whose tenure in this country has been so unfairly questioned and whose lives have been thrown into turmoil.  It is absolutely unforgivable to attempt to brush the issue aside by claiming that Amber Rudd and Theresa May have gracious apologised to those affected . Theresa May, after all, initiated the underlying policies that resulted in the scandal during her term as Home Secretary.    

Shame on Michael Gove for his insinuation that the outcry about Windrush is simply as a result of Labour and the left attempting to distract from alleged anti-Semitism in the Labour party. If indeed, a small number of members in the Labour party are found to be genuinely anti-Semitic, I have no doubt they will be identified and expelled. I personally suspect that the headlines generated by the more questionable elements of the right wing press are deliberately exaggerating any real problem by conflating the two separate issues of real anti-Semitism (which is as abhorrent as any racism) and legitimate opposition to the current Israeli Government's policy in the West Bank, which is something entirely different.      

As usual I am going to court controversy. Windrush, as you rightly say, is a scandal. The scandal is a result of many politicians from both major political parties pretending to get tough with the abuses of immigration that they themselves pretend not to see by avoiding direct confrontation with the issue while pursuing their own agendas whatever they are or were as I have yet to hear a comprehensible definition of what immigration this country really needs or how it is to be controlled and policed properly.

Back to Windrush which, as I say, is a bureaucratic bungle possibly partially perpetrated by a malicious Home Office and or Border Force. Due to targets, malformed legislation, mischief and spite we have a lovely big scandal. However, bureaucratic bungles happen all the time in every country round the world. That bungling may be an inconvenience e.g. a passport request processed too late for you to take that holiday, or it may be the misplacing of medical files resulting in your early demise. You may hold a hierarchy of bureaucratic bungles and how they should be treated but Windrush being exploited for political purposes I find quite distasteful.

We cannot have mass immigration into this country which is a huge political hot potato with  everything being managed by nudges, winks, no structure and all responsibility being avoided by politicians of all hues. 

Resurrection strikes again!

Regarding wind rush, J don’t believe it was fundamentally political, but that the existence of anomalous situations as was the case with those particular immigrants was simply forgotten in the incompetence bred from countless cost cutting of the civil service departments responsible, exacerbated by knee-jerk political reactions caused by the existence of party politics and its pettiness, imposing ill-thought out or researched policies and targets so as to attempt to score points in parliament. And that is all parties over the years, not just one in particular.

as for immigration, suggesting it is undesirable is off: after all, Britain is a country of immigrants - just look back in time. I agree that excessive immigration is unsustainable and so control may be needed to prevent that, however IIRC the birth rate of what might be considered to be the indigenous population (whatever that is, is such that population will contract if there is no net immigration. Maybe that is a good thing, though for how long? WhT is the right size population for the UK? And how do you ensure the right availability of skills?

Resurrection posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

Resurrection posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

Resurrection posted:

 I doubt that much more than half that number would say “leave” (which is why Resurrection is petrified of a confirmation referendum).

 

Ah, what's it like in that bubble of illusion with its rarified atmosphere that keeps you high enough to live with such false hope? I don't know how many times I have to tell you, IB, once we re completely through Brexit you can go looking for your next referendum, of which I have no fear. After all, you will never reach the 66% of votes you will need to win. 

If you don’t know how many times you have said I can go looking for a referndum after Brexit, I’ll refresh your memory: none. You did mention a referendum to rejoin once or possibly twice yesterday, so maybe that is what you meant.

 do note note that you have no fear of a referendum after Brexit, indeed you said that yesterday, and I have never suggested you are - please refer to my observation on that specific matter yesterday, after you indicated that 66% would be acceptable to you as the proportion to carry a vote to rejoin - to which I note you didn’t respond.

What you clearly ARE afraid of is a confirmation referendum before actually Brexiting, and I fully understand that, because it would yield a very strong vote against Brexit, revealing the true figure wanting it to be far fewer than the 17.4 million who stuck leave on their ballot papers in after that farce of a referendum campaign.

Nope, too many words, please be more concise. My short attention span can’t handle it.

Odd aberration, isn’t it: your attention span manages long diatribes spouting ridiculous dogma, but can’t cope when reading something that requires you to recognise facts.

I was in the pub at the time and my attention was focused on foamier things! Now, what were you saying...................?

Oh yes, it was a cut and paste of everything you have said before. I did respond to the Referendum question and did say that post real Brexit you can, should Parliament say so, have another referendum as long as you get 66% of the vote to b able to rejoin the EU (spit!). Might not have been you you directly, but I did say it and this is at least the third time. And you are right, I have no interest or desire for your confirmation Referendum and never will.

I’m not sure if you are wilfully distorting things or or are so stuck in your fixed blinkered mindset - others I am sure will assess for themselves, but I have never suggested a rejoin vote, indeed I  suggested calls for one wouldn’t happen, but you seem set on inviting one for some reason. 

But it is abundantly clear that you don’t want a co firm story referendum before Breciting, clearly recognising fit all your rhetoric that the vote for leaving will without any doubt at all have fallen considerably below the original 17.4 million, and it is inevitable that you would, in your terminology, lose - and roundly so.

I have exhausted all   I have to say on this particular matter, so I suggest you just digest this and recognise reality. 

There may not be a confirmatory referendum, but the country has lost if it Brexits, and it is the fault of those who misled the British public at the time of the original referendum, and of the incompetent government of the day.

 

I’m not sure if you are wilfully distorting things or or are so stuck in your fixed blinkered mindset - others I am sure will assess for themselves, but I have never suggested a rejoin vote, indeed I  suggested calls for one wouldn’t happen, but you seem set on inviting one for some reason. 

But it is abundantly clear that you don’t want a co firm story referendum before Breciting, clearly recognising fit all your rhetoric that the vote for leaving will without any doubt at all have fallen considerably below the original 17.4 million, and it is inevitable that you would, in your terminology, lose - and roundly so.

I have exhausted all   I have to say on this particular matter, so I suggest you just digest this and recognise reality. 

There may not be a confirmatory referendum, but the country has lost if it Brexits, and it is the fault of those who misled the British public at the time of the original referendum, and of the incompetent government of the day.

Your self belief and conviction is laudatory. I have not the slightest doubt in my mind that a theoretical confirmatory or whatever Referendum vote would deliver a complete KO to the hopes and aspirations of the Remainers. However, as you Remainers have never admitted defeat even for the first Referendum, I, for one, am not going to give any of you a solitary inch in your manouevres to get us back into Juncker's Kleptocracy. Why should I?

The rules of the game were defined by Cameron and accepted by Parliament. If the game had gone the other way I assure you this incredibly lengthy conversation would never have started. I, for one, would have shrugged my shoulders, accepted the result and sat back to await the complete car crash that will envelope Europe through the machinations of the Eurocracy to try to fit 27 square pegs into one EU sized hole and much of Africa would continue to be invited to add to the fun, but none of those 'unfortunates' from Africa will be invited to Poland, Hungary, Lithuania or in fact any of the former Soviet bloc as their enthusiasm for foreign invaders is understandably marginal after their 50 years of being under the Russian yoke.

Tell you what, can we please have a confirmatory referendum on accepting 350,000 extra people into the UK every year, and I will happily allow it to have a 66% majority for rejection to be the winning line? Can't say any fairer than that. Shall me, you and all of the other protagonists in this thread be happy to subscribe to this? If not, why not? And, as an added bonus I will be happy to accept any reasonable person from any country anywhere in the world on the proviso that for every one of them their country will have to have accepted a corresponding applicant from the UK. Managed immigration: perfect.

Try to understand that the people who voted Leave were not manipulated or deluded by the politicians, they made their own minds up and came to a very sensible conclusion IMHO.

Innocent Bystander posted:

 

Nope, too many words, please be more concise. My short attention span can’t handle it.

Odd aberration, isn’t it: your attention span manages long diatribes spouting ridiculous dogma, but can’t cope when reading something that requires you to recognise facts.

IB, this is a recently identified but poorly understood clinical condition - Brexitus Interturbatio. Sufferers experience a state of mild to severe cognitive impairment, and the condition is generally not amenable to treatment, particularly in cohorts of patients at the upper end of the age demographic.

Symptoms include:

* repetition of key phrases, usually but not always in a state of agitation. Researchers have identified many of these, but perhaps the most common is "We won, you lost".

* selective hearing loss, especially when exposed to values that do not wholly accord with their life experience, especially in cases where this is limited. 

* the tendency for sufferers to avoid contact with people outside of their immediate peer group, as this may make them intensely uncomfortable and agitated.

* the loss of intellectual capacity and ability to focus on reality. 

* an increased tendency to pursue harmful and addictive activities, for example drinking alcohol to excess, especially in a public setting 

It is believed that the condition may be contracted in early life, and lie dormant for many years, even decades. Conditions known to exacerbate or accelerate the progression of the disease include contact with external agents such social media (especially where source material may be determined to originate from the Russian Federation), and reading popular news media, where text is either in part or wholly in upper case letters (especially where these media sources purport to advocate traditional English values but where the owners of the media groups are domiciled in other countries).

Sufferers at advanced stages of the disease respond to the common cognitive test used by clinicians "Who is the current Prime Minister?" with the answer "Benjamin Disraeli", and believe that the British Empire must pursue its ultimate destiny by increasing trade with Cathay, Mesopotamia and Persia. They develop the tendency to lie frequently and incontinently, with progressively decreasing insight into their own behaviour, and how this impacts on others. Social exclusion can be a consequence for many sufferers, and as a consequence they may attempt to hide symptoms of the disease from those in their immediate family, or in social and work environments.

Although a relatively new phenomenon, and largely demonstrated by patients within the British Isles, researchers have noted the increased diagnosis of similar cognitive dysfunction within Europe, and public health authorities are dedicating considerable resources to understanding the disease, to mitigate the likelihood of its spread to mainland Europe. However, early studies indicate that the cortexes of mainland Europeans are largely resistant to the known pathogens, making this a peculiarly English disease.

Duncan Mann posted:

Symptoms include:

* repetition of key phrases, usually but not always in a state of agitation. Researchers have identified many of these, but perhaps the most common is "We won, you lost".

Dont forget “Brexit means Brexit” and “No deal is better than a bad deal”.

Resurrection posted:

Try to understand that the people who voted Leave were not manipulated or deluded by the politicians, they made their own minds up and came to a very sensible conclusion IMHO.

This is a very doubtful statement! Time and again proves that we are actually manipulated by politicians, social media, Russian hackers, etc. Most recent example is the Cambridge Analytica is caught red handed harvesting personal FB data to influence the Brexit referendum.

Resurrection posted:

 

Try to understand that the people who voted Leave were not manipulated or deluded by the politicians, they made their own minds up and came to a very sensible conclusion IMHO.

From the Washington Post, verbatim, June 24th 2016:

Awakening to a stock market plunge and a precipitous decline in the value of the pound that Britain hasn't seen in more than 30 years, voters now face a series of economic shocks that analysts say will only worsen before they improve. The consequences of the leave vote will be felt worldwide, even here in the United States, and some British voters say they now regret casting a ballot in favor of Brexit.

"Even though I voted to leave, this morning I woke up and I just — the reality did actually hit me," one woman told the news channel ITV News. "If I'd had the opportunity to vote again, it would be to stay."

That confusion over what Brexit might mean for the country's economy appears to have been reflected across the United Kingdom on Thursday. Google reported sharp upticks in searches not only related to the ballot measure but also about basic questions concerning the implications of the vote. At about 1 a.m. Eastern time, about eight hours after the polls closed, Google reported that searches for "what happens if we leave the EU" had more than tripled.

(Google Trends)

(Google Trends)

The run-up to the vote was marked by a bitterly divided campaign, one that was as much about immigration fears as it was about the global economy.

But despite the all-out attempts by either side to court voters, Britons were not only mystified by what would happen if they left the E.U.— many seemed not to even know what the European Union is.

Duncan Mann posted:

Resurrection posted:

 

Try to understand that the people who voted Leave were not manipulated or deluded by the politicians, they made their own minds up and came to a very sensible conclusion IMHO.

From the Washington Post, verbatim, June 24th 2016:

Awakening to a stock market plunge and a precipitous decline in the value of the pound that Britain hasn't seen in more than 30 years, voters now face a series of economic shocks that analysts say will only worsen before they improve. The consequences of the leave vote will be felt worldwide, even here in the United States, and some British voters say they now regret casting a ballot in favor of Brexit.

"Even though I voted to leave, this morning I woke up and I just — the reality did actually hit me," one woman told the news channel ITV News. "If I'd had the opportunity to vote again, it would be to stay."

That confusion over what Brexit might mean for the country's economy appears to have been reflected across the United Kingdom on Thursday. Google reported sharp upticks in searches not only related to the ballot measure but also about basic questions concerning the implications of the vote. At about 1 a.m. Eastern time, about eight hours after the polls closed, Google reported that searches for "what happens if we leave the EU" had more than tripled.

(Google Trends)

(Google Trends)

The run-up to the vote was marked by a bitterly divided campaign, one that was as much about immigration fears as it was about the global economy.

But despite the all-out attempts by either side to court voters, Britons were not only mystified by what would happen if they left the E.U.— many seemed not to even know what the European Union is.

When I’m not taunting you lot I am very much involved with my own stocks and shares which continue to do very well . What can I say? And lay off the spurious quotes and propaganda from the very much anti-Brexit MSM. ????