Are we sleep-walking out of Europe ?

Or perhaps the Gov will collapse and we will wind up with the Lib-Dems (Vince Cable) holding the balance of power again and a re-run of the referendum............

lutyens posted:

Can't we just try and keep going and that as Rudd was simply carrying out TM's policies, can't we get rid of her too?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(Then we could have JR-M as PM instead!) Oh happy days

Oh mate, if only. Am going to sleep well tonight dreaming my man Mogg has replaced Maggie May and we're all on board SS UK for a non-EU Nirvana where we will live happily ever after, amen ????

I bet TM wishes she only had to cope with MY brain teasers 

Interesting to see how it all plays out now!

Don Atkinson posted:

Or perhaps the Gov will collapse and we will wind up with the Lib-Dems (Vince Cable) holding the balance of power again and a re-run of the referendum............

That can't possibly happen...

Resurrection says that there won't be a re-run of the referendum...

...and he KNOWS for certain - he's assured us of that.

Resurrection posted:

You, of course would prefer Corbyn, McDonnell, Nugee and Abbott. Unbelievable!

Prefer yes... but that doesn’t mean I think they are the best people for the job but when the choice is (pretty much) A or B yes I would prefer Corbyn to May, prefer McDonnell to Hammond, Thornberry to Johnson and yes, even prefer (Dianne) Abbot to Rudd.  I would prefer a third choice, but our flawed democracy leaves very little choice for most of the country.

The Labour front bench have their flaws, but their flaws are minor in comparison to the unprincipled bunch of opportunist and populist figures in charge at the moment.  A group of people who will sacrifice the best outcome for the country on the alter of doctrine in an attempt to retain power!  A group who will lie in word and by omission.  Who wish to obfuscate their inadequacies by playing the “anti-semitism” card while playing to racist motivations to increase their support, then play dumb when they are caught.  A group who’s interests are more in pleasing the proprietors and editors of Daily Mail and the Sun than actually dealing with the problems of the country.

Huge posted:

Interesting example of narcissism there!  

Interesting? There's enough material here for an entire conference!

Let's see who gets the allusion...

This is now getting mightily dangerous for TM. Not only is she mired in the creation of the policy itself when Home Secretary but, arguably worse in parliamentary terms, since the leaked memo was from Rudd to her, she is now implicated in mis-leading Parliament because she is open to the question 'the leaked memo proves that the PM knew of these targets, so why didn't she step in last week and correct the position when Rudd was denying knowledge of them?'.  Toxic.

Monday could be interesting.  

Eloise posted:

Resurrection posted:

You, of course would prefer Corbyn, McDonnell, Nugee and Abbott. Unbelievable!

Prefer yes... but that doesn’t mean I think they are the best people for the job but when the choice is (pretty much) A or B yes I would prefer Corbyn to May, prefer McDonnell to Hammond, Thornberry to Johnson and yes, even prefer (Dianne) Abbot to Rudd.  I would prefer a third choice, but our flawed democracy leaves very little choice for most of the country.

The Labour front bench have their flaws, but their flaws are minor in comparison to the unprincipled bunch of opportunist and populist figures in charge at the moment.  A group of people who will sacrifice the best outcome for the country on the alter of doctrine in an attempt to retain power!  A group who will lie in word and by omission.  Who wish to obfuscate their inadequacies by playing the “anti-semitism” card while playing to racist motivations to increase their support, then play dumb when they are caught.  A group who’s interests are more in pleasing the proprietors and editors of Daily Mail and the Sun than actually dealing with the problems of the country.

Interesting! Always wondered how the mind of a rabid Corbynite 'worked'. Clearly that is a non sequitur. And insulting the millions of people who read the Sun and The Daily Mail, I thought you were a woman of the people, Eloise. You must also be one of the few people that buy the Grauniad which I personally believe has a much more useful function than being read, like, inter alia, lighting fires. And there you are littering your vituperation with allusions to race and religion but never actually playing the card, oh no!

You accuse me of being destructive in my support of Brexit but are quite happy to align yourself with some of the nastiest thugs to have ever been inflicted on Parliament, whose stated aim is to take us to a Marxist Hell that has failed every single state in which it has been practised. You invoke political vandalism for no other reason than a congenital hatred of conservatism. You may consider yourself an idealist but are in fact one of those, like Corbyn, McDonnell and McCluskey, that brooks no deviation from your own 'principles' and norms. 

Duncan Mann posted:

Huge posted:

Interesting example of narcissism there!  

Interesting? There's enough material here for an entire conference!

Let's see who gets the allusion...

Basil!

Eloise posted:

Resurrection posted:

You, of course would prefer Corbyn, McDonnell, Nugee and Abbott. Unbelievable!

 

The Labour front bench have their flaws, but their flaws are minor in comparison to the unprincipled bunch of opportunist and populist figures in charge at the moment.  A group of people who will sacrifice the best outcome for the country on the alter of doctrine in an attempt to retain power!  A group who will lie in word and by omission.  Who wish to obfuscate their inadequacies by playing the “anti-semitism” card while playing to racist motivations to increase their support, then play dumb when they are caught.  A group who’s interests are more in pleasing the proprietors and editors of Daily Mail and the Sun than actually dealing with the problems of the country.

But they are playing politics, that's what they do. If there were no anti-semitism in the Labour paty, then why was there a huge demonstration in London about it, only the other week?

And what are the racist motivations you refer to? If you meant the one where there is a -hidden or otherwise - policy to remove illegal immigrants [migrants if you prefer the more PC term for it], whats wrong with that? The clue is in the word, 'illegal'

To not have a policy, albeit long after the horse has bolted into oblivion, is most unwise. In case it has escaped your notice, the sheer amount of immigration this country has experienced, particularly since Blair and co were elected, has radically changed this country, in my opinion, for the worse. For example, here in not so sunny Kent, we have house building on former farming land and green fields. Wildlife habitat is being destroyed, more food importation, etc, bolstered by year upon year by uncontrolled immigration.  So much for our green and pleasant land...

Resurrection posted:

... and we're all on board SS UK for a non-EU Nirvana where we will live happily ever after, amen ????

Most of the people on the Titanic thought they were on their way to a much better life in an ideal country (and the UK has even fewer lifeboats per capita!).

Huge posted:

Resurrection posted:

... and we're all on board SS UK for a non-EU Nirvana where we will live happily ever after, amen ????

Most of the people on the Titanic thought they were on their way to a much better life in an ideal country (and the UK has even fewer lifeboats per capita!).

I knew my allusion would attract moths. ????

Don Atkinson posted:

Christopher_M posted:

Ah. JR-M, then!

I was unaware of the correct abbreviation. Looks like I shall have to resign..........

No need, Don. An absent hyphen is hardly the Crichel Down affair ;-)

Resurrection posted:

 

You really DON'T read what people write do you!

I was going to write a reply, but given you will not brother to read it beyond the first sentance I'm going to treat your reply to me with the contempt it deserves.

Amber Rudd resigns just before May.

Politics on the Naim forums.  Boy, you people are nasty to one another!  Hopefully your country can get things sorted out.  Good luck.

Resurrection posted:

Huge posted:

Resurrection posted:

... and we're all on board SS UK for a non-EU Nirvana where we will live happily ever after, amen ????

Most of the people on the Titanic thought they were on their way to a much better life in an ideal country (and the UK has even fewer lifeboats per capita!).

I knew my allusion would attract moths. ????

Well, despite that comment, you're not my flame!

docmark posted:

Politics on the Naim forums.  Boy, you people are nasty to one another!  Hopefully your country can get things sorted out.  Good luck.

Indeed!

The political divides in both the UK and the US are becoming more pronounced and more acrimonious, although we haven't lurched quite so much to the far right as has the current US Presidency. At least, not until the likes of John Redwood get into a position of real power. I was tempted to bundle Rees-Mogg and a couple of others in with Redwood (just to please Resurrection), but awful though I think Rees-Mogg's political views are, even he is not a match for the nastiness of John Redwood and his political views.

We are also beginning to have a press that is a little akin to that in the States. In the States you have Fox News and Breitbart on the extreme right, and the likes of CNN on the other who are portrayed by some on the right as being on the far left and propagating 'fake news'. I guess that if you are one of those who view Breitbart, Fox News as constituting real journalism with Sean Hannity at the helm, and CNN as 'Socialists' (heaven forbid) and the nasty guys on the extreme left of politics, then you would probably feel the same way about Newspapers such as the Guardian in the UK. You may also feel that right wing rags such as the Mail and the Sun are independent and impartial bastions of the political truth, despite being owned and increasingly influenced by ultra rich magnates (in the  case of the Sun, by the Fox News owner Rupert Murdoch). I hasten to add that even they don't troll the gutter to anything like the extent that do Breitbart and Fox News with the exception of a particularly nasty former Mail columnist called Katie Hopkins whom I believe has recently left the Mail to join a right wing Canadian outlet called 'Rebel Media'. Canadians beware!

However, I will also point out for anyone from outside these shores who hasn't quite grasped this yet, that the Brexit divide in the UK (which is the subject of this particular thread) is not split along party political lines, and there are many reasonable people on both sides of the debate who contribute to this thread. Many reasonable people on this forum who argue strongly in favour of remaining in the EU have indicated that they have right leaning political viewpoints, and  similarly, there are no doubt more than a few on the left who support Brexit. Unfortunately, there are also a few contributors to this thread who display triumphalism at its worst, and whose sole aim in the thread appears to be to gloat over the Brexit Referendum result.

It's depressing, but it's difficult to know how the political acrimony can be replaced by harmony or cross party collaboration in the near future in either of our countries.  

Hi HMACK - thanks for your well-written response.  I'm Canadian, and of course we also have our problems.  I continue to follow the political scene in both the UK and the US with some interest.

docmark posted:

Hi HMACK - thanks for your well-written response.  I'm Canadian, and of course we also have our problems.  I continue to follow the political scene in both the UK and the US with some interest.

Hi Docmark,

I hadn't realised that you were based in Vancouver. I should have read your profile. Vancouver is a beautiful city. I have close relatives who live in Vancouver, and I hope to return there soon.  

Whatever political problems and party political divisions you have in Canada, I very much suspect that they do not compare with those currently afflicting the UK and the US.

Another defeat for the Government in the Lords this afternoon, inserting an amendment to give Parliament a meaningful vote. It will be interesting to see how this one plays out and the arguments advanced by HMG if it wants to use the House of Commons to overturn the amendment. After all, a fundamental argument of the Brexiteers during the campaign was that the UK needs to 'take back control' form the 'undemocratic' (sic) EU and that power to decide things affecting the Uk should be decided by the UK Parliament.  

So the Lords insert an amendment to enhance the power of Parliament in respect of the Brexit deal.  What do the Brexiteers say now ? 'Oh, when we said we need to take back control, we didn't mean for the UK Parliament to have it. We meant for the executive to have it! '  How democratic.

docmark posted:

Politics on the Naim forums.  Boy, you people are nasty to one another!  Hopefully your country can get things sorted out.  Good luck.

To be fair, Docmark, you did chime in at a point when things had got somewhat more heated than usual - at least in the limited time I've been viewing this thread - a few weeks. By and large though, most people are reasonably civilised to one another, even when coming from polar opposite viewpoints. When things do get a bit heated, I remind myself of the adage "sticks and stones may break my bones, but names will never harm me"  

Thankfully it would appear that Parliament is in the last week or so starting to get a grip on the Brexit process, so instead of the country being held to ransom by the Tory party chasing unachievable unity on Europe, there is the real prospect of a sane outcome that won't please the hard Brexiters, but everyone else - the majority of people in the UK - will be able to get behind it.

Should the Commons accept the Lords amendment and give MPs a meaningful vote on any Brexit deal, rather than the “accept the deal, or leave without any deal” (no deal is better than a bad deal) ?

Don Atkinson posted:

Should the Commons accept the Lords amendment and give MPs a meaningful vote on any Brexit deal, rather than the “accept the deal, or leave without any deal” (no deal is better than a bad deal) ?

The whole “meaningful vote” is a lie (depending how May takes the Lords defeat).

She says that she can’t offer Parliament a vote which would leave her having to go back to the EU or remain because that would mean that the EU would give a really bad deal in the hope the U.K. parliament vote to remain part of the EU.  Well by the same argument she can get a deal which suits her and not the wider parliament knowing that the “meaningful vote” is a case of take a bad deal, or leave without any deal which most of parliament have said would be worse than the worst of bad deals!