Are we sleep-walking out of Europe ?

jpr posted:

I read today that Airbus has, if awarded the contract, committed to future activities for Galileo in than EU27 rather than in the UK.  Beyond the catchphrases I hope someone is keeping count of the wins and losses that Brexit is generating. I work for a company that is invested in the UK, and we are looking beyond the fantasies of the elected officials who don't  have to worry about how to keep people busy, pay their salaries, while making a profit to secure future investments inside a fiscal year to keep the shareholders happy. That would be too much trouble since Brexit does mean Brexit and the details will come later, however the details are being worked by companies now as it is their money on the line.

Yes, it looks as if the EU is determined to punish the U.K. despite protestations to the contrary.

As I commented a few pages back, the EU wants to exclude the U.K. from full military use of Galileo once it is up and running and they want to exclude U.K. based companies, including Airbus elements from further participation in development and construction of the project.

I have no doubt that other industries are likewise affected and I keep asking Andarkian for a list of these industries since he was fully aware of all the consequences of Brexit when he voted Leave.

So far he has failed to provide........

Don Atkinson posted:

jpr posted:

I read today that Airbus has, if awarded the contract, committed to future activities for Galileo in than EU27 rather than in the UK.  Beyond the catchphrases I hope someone is keeping count of the wins and losses that Brexit is generating. I work for a company that is invested in the UK, and we are looking beyond the fantasies of the elected officials who don't  have to worry about how to keep people busy, pay their salaries, while making a profit to secure future investments inside a fiscal year to keep the shareholders happy. That would be too much trouble since Brexit does mean Brexit and the details will come later, however the details are being worked by companies now as it is their money on the line.

Yes, it looks as if the EU is determined to punish the U.K. despite protestations to the contrary.

As I commented a few pages back, the EU wants to exclude the U.K. from full military use of Galileo once it is up and running and they want to exclude U.K. based companies, including Airbus elements from further participation in development and construction of the project.

I have no doubt that other industries are likewise affected and I keep asking Andarkian for a list of these industries since he was fully aware of all the consequences of Brexit when he voted Leave.

So far he has failed to provide........

I don't like the EU or what I think it stands for, which is a political, bureaucratic, federalist carbuncle. If they take their spite out on the U.K. for having the temerity to leave then it was never worth being there in the first place. As I already posted, I worked all my life in the private, manufacturing sector and watched politicians  of all hues trash it. The EU simply added another level of trashing. 

I  do understand but do not sympathise with all the bureaucrats, politicians, academics and lawyers who have leeched on the wealth of the EU extracted from British tax paying pockets. Not much production or profit for so many layers of bureaucracy.

The UK could go it alone with a GPS system. The Galileo payload is designed in the UK, even though the spacecraft platform is German.

If the U.K. went it alone with a GNSS solution then it would be a good sign in that certainly HS2 and the other critical infrastructure investments were complete. The most cost effective way would be to partner as part of a wider group of countries with similar priorities and shared geographical boundaries. You could have a common fund that then matches investments from the private sector with grants from that common fund. A good way to create jobs and develop intellectual property in a managed way. Only countries part of the club can benefit from the grants, not as a punishment of course it just doesn’t make sense that any country gets the benefit of a grant if they don’t pay to be in the club! 

Don Atkinson posted:

jpr posted:

I read today that Airbus has, if awarded the contract, committed to future activities for Galileo in than EU27 rather than in the UK.  Beyond the catchphrases I hope someone is keeping count of the wins and losses that Brexit is generating. I work for a company that is invested in the UK, and we are looking beyond the fantasies of the elected officials who don't  have to worry about how to keep people busy, pay their salaries, while making a profit to secure future investments inside a fiscal year to keep the shareholders happy. That would be too much trouble since Brexit does mean Brexit and the details will come later, however the details are being worked by companies now as it is their money on the line.

Yes, it looks as if the EU is determined to punish the U.K. despite protestations to the contrary.

As I commented a few pages back, the EU wants to exclude the U.K. from full military use of Galileo once it is up and running and they want to exclude U.K. based companies, including Airbus elements from further participation in development and construction of the project.

I have no doubt that other industries are likewise affected and I keep asking Andarkian for a list of these industries since he was fully aware of all the consequences of Brexit when he voted Leave.

So far he has failed to provide........

I do find this a very odd position for EU to take, Don. Leaving to one side the argument on Brexit (on which I think you and I agree), the EU has relied heavily on the UK's military support, and will continue to look for the UK's security support after Brexit. Putin's posturing probably weighs even more heavily for eastern EU states. On matters of national security I would have thought senior politicians in the EU wouldn't want to see the UK's military support weakened, nor rebuffed by such negotiating tactics as these.     

Suzy Wong posted:

The UK could go it alone with a GPS system. The Galileo payload is designed in the UK, even though the spacecraft platform is German.

The Gov is taking legal advice about the return of the UK ‘s £1.2bn contribution to Galileo, assuming we are denied further participation and access.

they have also talked about our own U.K. GNSS system at an estimated cost of £5bn............cheap compared to HS2 !

As you say, we have the expertise in the UK

MDS posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

jpr posted:

I read today that Airbus has, if awarded the contract, committed to future activities for Galileo in than EU27 rather than in the UK.  Beyond the catchphrases I hope someone is keeping count of the wins and losses that Brexit is generating. I work for a company that is invested in the UK, and we are looking beyond the fantasies of the elected officials who don't  have to worry about how to keep people busy, pay their salaries, while making a profit to secure future investments inside a fiscal year to keep the shareholders happy. That would be too much trouble since Brexit does mean Brexit and the details will come later, however the details are being worked by companies now as it is their money on the line.

Yes, it looks as if the EU is determined to punish the U.K. despite protestations to the contrary.

As I commented a few pages back, the EU wants to exclude the U.K. from full military use of Galileo once it is up and running and they want to exclude U.K. based companies, including Airbus elements from further participation in development and construction of the project.

I have no doubt that other industries are likewise affected and I keep asking Andarkian for a list of these industries since he was fully aware of all the consequences of Brexit when he voted Leave.

So far he has failed to provide........

I do find this a very odd position for EU to take, Don. Leaving to one side the argument on Brexit (on which I think you and I agree), the EU has relied heavily on the UK's military support, and will continue to look for the UK's security support after Brexit. Putin's posturing probably weighs even more heavily for eastern EU states. On matters of national security I would have thought senior politicians in the EU wouldn't want to see the UK's military support weakened, nor rebuffed by such negotiating tactics as these.     

I agree it’s an odd position. I only hope it’s initial posturing.

It is not a case of the EU taking their spite out on the UK. The UK has voted to leave. So leave. But don‘t come whinging about being excluded or that you are not getting a good enough deal. You (Brexiteers) are excluding yourselves.

William posted:

It is not a case of the EU taking their spite out on the UK. The UK has voted to leave. So leave. But don‘t come whinging about being excluded or that you are not getting a good enough deal. You (Brexiteers) are excluding yourselves.

Unfortunately that's not quite right.  There are several instances where the EU is insisting that the UK government continues it's "contractual obligation" to pay into previously agreed budgets and projects, where, at the same time, they have categorically stated that the UK will not be allowed to benefit from the existing facilities or facilities newly created using that money when those facilities come on line.

If we are to be excluded from facilities than the EU should repay contributions from the UK made so far; if payments are to continue we should be allowed to make use of the facilities in just the same way as any EU state (including voting rights on the future direction of these specific facilities).

BTW I'm a remainer; I believe that the UK and the EU both benefit from the participation and co-operation of all the European states.  Yes the EU isn't ideal, and there are parts of the organisation that desperately need reform, but I'm a strong believer in the overall benefit to all.

jpr posted:

I read today that Airbus has, if awarded the contract, committed to future activities for Galileo in than EU27 rather than in the UK.  Beyond the catchphrases I hope someone is keeping count of the wins and losses that Brexit is generating. I work for a company that is invested in the UK, and we are looking beyond the fantasies of the elected officials who don't  have to worry about how to keep people busy, pay their salaries, while making a profit to secure future investments inside a fiscal year to keep the shareholders happy. That would be too much trouble since Brexit does mean Brexit and the details will come later, however the details are being worked by companies now as it is their money on the line.

It doesn't matter how much damage is done to the economy.
It doesn't matter if our standard of living falls.
It doesn't matter how many people loose their jobs.

Brexit isn't here to help people; it's about an absolutist political principle and damn the consequences.

Huge posted:

It doesn't matter how much damage is done to the economy.
It doesn't matter if our standard of living falls.
It doesn't matter how many people loose their jobs.

Brexit isn't here to help people; it's about an absolutist political principle and damn the consequences.

Who will suffer most?

Does this ring any bells?.....

Matthew Parris self-diagnoses as a Remainiac:

“There’s no denying it. My spirit is restless and I must confess. This Brexit thing is driving me slightly mad. And I do mean that clinically: not as a rhetorical flourish. My mental state, like that of so many I know on both sides of the Remain/Brexit divide, is capable of medical diagnosis. A shaft of insanity has pierced our interior lives. I really am becoming a Remainiac… I know I’m boring my readers; know there’s almost nothing left to be said; know that the voice in my head, my mother’s voice, telling me I just need a good night’s sleep, is right… Is it not the first and clearest indication that the balance of one’s mind has been disturbed that, when having done all one reasonably can to achieve a result, one simply cannot let something go? What is the point of waking up at 3 a.m. and fretting sleepless until sunrise that we are leaving the European Union?”

Resurrection posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

jpr posted:

I read today that Airbus has, if awarded the contract, committed to future activities for Galileo in than EU27 rather than in the UK.  Beyond the catchphrases I hope someone is keeping count of the wins and losses that Brexit is generating. I work for a company that is invested in the UK, and we are looking beyond the fantasies of the elected officials who don't  have to worry about how to keep people busy, pay their salaries, while making a profit to secure future investments inside a fiscal year to keep the shareholders happy. That would be too much trouble since Brexit does mean Brexit and the details will come later, however the details are being worked by companies now as it is their money on the line.

Yes, it looks as if the EU is determined to punish the U.K. despite protestations to the contrary.

As I commented a few pages back, the EU wants to exclude the U.K. from full military use of Galileo once it is up and running and they want to exclude U.K. based companies, including Airbus elements from further participation in development and construction of the project.

I have no doubt that other industries are likewise affected and I keep asking Andarkian for a list of these industries since he was fully aware of all the consequences of Brexit when he voted Leave.

So far he has failed to provide........

I don't like the EU or what I think it stands for, which is a political, bureaucratic, federalist carbuncle. If they take their spite out on the U.K. for having the temerity to leave then it was never worth being there in the first place. As I already posted, I worked all my life in the private, manufacturing sector and watched politicians  of all hues trash it. The EU simply added another level of trashing. 

I  do understand but do not sympathise with all the bureaucrats, politicians, academics and lawyers who have leeched on the wealth of the EU extracted from British tax paying pockets. Not much production or profit for so many layers of bureaucracy.

So, to summarise,  theconsequences of leaving the EU are irrelevent so far as you are concerned.

William posted:

....The UK has voted to leave. 

The UK didn't vote to leave, 17.4 million UK voters voted to leave, 29+ million other UK voters didn't vote to leave.

The decision to leave the EU is merely the will of the governing Tory/UKIP Party.

Debs

Don Atkinson posted:

Resurrection posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

jpr posted:

I read today that Airbus has, if awarded the contract, committed to future activities for Galileo in than EU27 rather than in the UK.  Beyond the catchphrases I hope someone is keeping count of the wins and losses that Brexit is generating. I work for a company that is invested in the UK, and we are looking beyond the fantasies of the elected officials who don't  have to worry about how to keep people busy, pay their salaries, while making a profit to secure future investments inside a fiscal year to keep the shareholders happy. That would be too much trouble since Brexit does mean Brexit and the details will come later, however the details are being worked by companies now as it is their money on the line.

Yes, it looks as if the EU is determined to punish the U.K. despite protestations to the contrary.

As I commented a few pages back, the EU wants to exclude the U.K. from full military use of Galileo once it is up and running and they want to exclude U.K. based companies, including Airbus elements from further participation in development and construction of the project.

I have no doubt that other industries are likewise affected and I keep asking Andarkian for a list of these industries since he was fully aware of all the consequences of Brexit when he voted Leave.

So far he has failed to provide........

I don't like the EU or what I think it stands for, which is a political, bureaucratic, federalist carbuncle. If they take their spite out on the U.K. for having the temerity to leave then it was never worth being there in the first place. As I already posted, I worked all my life in the private, manufacturing sector and watched politicians  of all hues trash it. The EU simply added another level of trashing. 

I  do understand but do not sympathise with all the bureaucrats, politicians, academics and lawyers who have leeched on the wealth of the EU extracted from British tax paying pockets. Not much production or profit for so many layers of bureaucracy.

So, to summarise,  theconsequences of leaving the EU are irrelevent so far as you are concerned.

Yep.

I look at it another way:    17.4m voted to leave,  16.1m voted to remain,   the people who didn't vote were aprx 13m (28%) & these abstainers by not voting have removed themselves from the process & as such cannot be counted in any statics.   

However later analysis does show the abstainers were more sympathetic towards remain,  but their inactivity on 23 June caused the opposite,   so I view the abstainers as responsible for both losing the remain vote & winning the brexit vote.

Only 36% of the 18-24 age group voted & as the largest abstaining age group it's ironic that they have longer to regret (or rejoice)  on what they didn't bother about on 23 June 2016.   

Those who didn’t vote thinking that it was so obvious we’d stay that it wasn’t worth their time certainly can be blamed. (And it is highly unlikely anyone who wanted to leave would not have voted, so they are in the 17.4M.)

However there will be those who abstained because they couldn’t make up their minds, whether deep thinkers who see the advantages and disadvantages of both with no clear winner, or people confused by the media circus and unable to make any sense of it. These people can’t be blamed for not saying ‘stay’.

Meanwhile, unfortunately there are no statistics for the people in the 17.4M who either:

a) voted ‘leave’ to make a protest, never actually wanting to leave, instead wanting to reduce what they perceived the Govt thought was a strong pro-EU majority, with the sole intention of shaking Govt out of its complacency, but certainly neither expecting nor wanting the result to be leave, and seriously regret their vote, wishing they could reverse it.The figures in terms of the people I know personally who voted leave are 100% didn’t actually want to leave, 0% did want to leave.

b) voted ‘leave’ on the basis of what they were led to believe then through the various high profile media stories, but who, now that the lies have been debunked and the hard reality of what Brexit will mean to them, their families and their future is clearer, think differently and no longer wish to leave, and wish they could reverse their vote. I have no indication of any proportion to which this might apply, but suspect it is a high number.

Innocent Bystander posted:

Those who didn’t vote thinking that it was so obvious we’d stay that it wasn’t worth their time certainly can be blamed. (And it is highly unlikely anyone who wanted to leave would not have voted, so they are in the 17.4M.)

However there will be those who abstained because they couldn’t make up their minds, whether deep thinkers who see the advantages and disadvantages of both with no clear winner, or people confused by the media circus and unable to make any sense of it. These people can’t be blamed for not saying ‘stay’.

Meanwhile, unfortunately there are no statistics for the people in the 17.4M who either:

a) voted ‘leave’ to make a protest, never actually wanting to leave, instead wanting to reduce what they perceived the Govt thought was a strong pro-EU majority, with the sole intention of shaking Govt out of its complacency, but certainly neither expecting nor wanting the result to be leave, and seriously regret their vote, wishing they could reverse it.The figures in terms of the people I know personally who voted leave are 100% didn’t actually want to leave, 0% did want to leave.

b) voted ‘leave’ on the basis of what they were led to believe then through the various high profile media stories, but who, now that the lies have been debunked and the hard reality of what Brexit will mean to them, their families and their future is clearer, think differently and no longer wish to leave, and wish they could reverse their vote. I have no indication of any proportion to which this might apply, but suspect it is a high number.

Anyone fancy a spot of navel gazing?

Resurrection posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

So, to summarise,  theconsequences of leaving the EU are irrelevent so far as you are concerned.

Yep.

And presumably, you consider the consequences of this to other people to be equally irrelevant?

Huge posted:

Resurrection posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

So, to summarise,  theconsequences of leaving the EU are irrelevent so far as you are concerned.

Yep.

And presumably, you consider the consequences of this to other people to be equally irrelevant?

I'm never quite sure if Resurrection is playing to the gallery in his Walter Mitty style, or whether he genuinely believes what he says. Periodically he does seem to have moments of insight into the views of others. Assuming for a moment that his reply was genuinely felt, I do think this plays to the notion widely propounded post referendum that Brexiteers voted solely with their gut, and the gut is immune to reason. A parallel seems to be found in the fact that Donald Trump seems to maintain a support base of 35-40% however outrageous the things he says or does.

I have no problem with the UK leaving the EU off the back of a reasoned democratic debate, but I have a massive issue with Brexiteers consigning the UK to a miserable fate in so many spheres when they openly acknowledge that they just don't care about the impact on others. In this scenario, I'm happy to support any means, fair or foul, to frustrate such ignorance, and restore sanity to British politics.  

Huge posted:

Resurrection posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

So, to summarise,  theconsequences of leaving the EU are irrelevent so far as you are concerned.

Yep.

And presumably, you consider the consequences of this to other people to be equally irrelevant?

Yep.

Duncan Mann posted:

Huge posted:

Resurrection posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

So, to summarise,  theconsequences of leaving the EU are irrelevent so far as you are concerned.

Yep.

And presumably, you consider the consequences of this to other people to be equally irrelevant?

I'm never quite sure if Resurrection is playing to the gallery in his Walter Mitty style, or whether he genuinely believes what he says. Periodically he does seem to have moments of insight into the views of others. Assuming for a moment that his reply was genuinely felt, I do think this plays to the notion widely propounded post referendum that Brexiteers voted solely with their gut, and the gut is immune to reason. A parallel seems to be found in the fact that Donald Trump seems to maintain a support base of 35-40% however outrageous the things he says or does.

I have no problem with the UK leaving the EU off the back of a reasoned democratic debate, but I have a massive issue with Brexiteers consigning the UK to a miserable fate in so many spheres when they openly acknowledge that they just don't care about the impact on others. In this scenario, I'm happy to support any means, fair or foul, to frustrate such ignorance, and restore sanity to British politics.  

Thanks for the psychoanalysis Duncan, I really needed it! Countless times now I have given countless specific reasons why I voted Brexit but you guys seem to discount my countless reasons. The democratic aspect of the Referendum is also done and dusted, you remember the pre-Referendum thingy where Cameron, Obama, Junker, the Canadian Bank of England Manager and Uncle Tom Cobley all made their wild threats. Stilll didn't work, the 17.4 million voted to leave, some stayed at home and the rest of you lost.

Interestingly, at least for me, we have just met up with neighbours prior to doing the 500 mile drive round the North of Scotland and had a lovely meal in Fort Augustus last night. I just assumed he would be a Remainer being very middle class and conservative, but no! Without initiating the discussion, but for almost the same reasons as myself he came out with the fact the he was a Leaver too. We didn't dwell on it as there was lovely asparagus, venison and Scottish cheese to be eaten, along with a delicious bottle of South African red. 

However, I have to admit if I was in the H of L was a world class prat, had voted on 3% of available occasions, had a huge estate and was getting £80,000 a year in subsidies from the EU,, I might be tempted to change my mind 

Resurrection posted:

Duncan Mann posted:

Huge posted:

Resurrection posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

So, to summarise,  theconsequences of leaving the EU are irrelevent so far as you are concerned.

Yep.

And presumably, you consider the consequences of this to other people to be equally irrelevant?

I'm never quite sure if Resurrection is playing to the gallery in his Walter Mitty style, or whether he genuinely believes what he says. Periodically he does seem to have moments of insight into the views of others. Assuming for a moment that his reply was genuinely felt, I do think this plays to the notion widely propounded post referendum that Brexiteers voted solely with their gut, and the gut is immune to reason. A parallel seems to be found in the fact that Donald Trump seems to maintain a support base of 35-40% however outrageous the things he says or does.

I have no problem with the UK leaving the EU off the back of a reasoned democratic debate, but I have a massive issue with Brexiteers consigning the UK to a miserable fate in so many spheres when they openly acknowledge that they just don't care about the impact on others. In this scenario, I'm happy to support any means, fair or foul, to frustrate such ignorance, and restore sanity to British politics.  

Thanks for the psychoanalysis Duncan, I really needed it! Countless times now I have given countless specific reasons why I voted Brexit but you guys seem to discount my countless reasons. The democratic aspect of the Referendum is also done and dusted, you remember the pre-Referendum thingy where Cameron, Obama, Junker, the Canadian Bank of England Manager and Uncle Tom Cobley all made their wild threats. Stilll didn't work, the 17.4 million voted to leave, some stayed at home and the rest of you lost.

Interestingly, at least for me, we have just met up with neighbours prior to doing the 500 mile drive round the North of Scotland and had a lovely meal in Fort Augustus last night. I just assumed he would be a Remainer being very middle class and conservative, but no! Without initiating the discussion, but for almost the same reasons as myself he came out with the fact the he was a Leaver too. We didn't dwell on it as there was lovely asparagus, venison and Scottish cheese to be eaten, along with a delicious bottle of South African red. 

However, I have to admit if I was in the H of L was a world class prat, had voted on 3% of available occasions, had a huge estate and was getting £80,000 a year in subsidies from the EU,, I might be tempted to change my mind 

So, you would be tempted to change your mind for purely selfish reasons and personal gain, but not as a result of reasoned debate concerning the future of the U.K. as a whole.

Resurrection posted:

Huge posted:

Resurrection posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

So, to summarise,  theconsequences of leaving the EU are irrelevent so far as you are concerned.

Yep.

And presumably, you consider the consequences of this to other people to be equally irrelevant?

Yep.

Well now, that answer's very revealing...

It completes a consistent and now quite visible pattern.

Huge posted:

Resurrection posted:

Huge posted:

Resurrection posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

So, to summarise,  theconsequences of leaving the EU are irrelevent so far as you are concerned.

Yep.

And presumably, you consider the consequences of this to other people to be equally irrelevant?

Yep.

Well now, that answer's very revealing...

It completes a consistent and now quite visible pattern.

Yep.