Are we sleep-walking out of Europe ?

Don Atkinson posted:

Resurrection posted:

Duncan Mann posted:

Huge posted:

Resurrection posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

So, to summarise,  theconsequences of leaving the EU are irrelevent so far as you are concerned.

Yep.

And presumably, you consider the consequences of this to other people to be equally irrelevant?

I'm never quite sure if Resurrection is playing to the gallery in his Walter Mitty style, or whether he genuinely believes what he says. Periodically he does seem to have moments of insight into the views of others. Assuming for a moment that his reply was genuinely felt, I do think this plays to the notion widely propounded post referendum that Brexiteers voted solely with their gut, and the gut is immune to reason. A parallel seems to be found in the fact that Donald Trump seems to maintain a support base of 35-40% however outrageous the things he says or does.

I have no problem with the UK leaving the EU off the back of a reasoned democratic debate, but I have a massive issue with Brexiteers consigning the UK to a miserable fate in so many spheres when they openly acknowledge that they just don't care about the impact on others. In this scenario, I'm happy to support any means, fair or foul, to frustrate such ignorance, and restore sanity to British politics.  

Thanks for the psychoanalysis Duncan, I really needed it! Countless times now I have given countless specific reasons why I voted Brexit but you guys seem to discount my countless reasons. The democratic aspect of the Referendum is also done and dusted, you remember the pre-Referendum thingy where Cameron, Obama, Junker, the Canadian Bank of England Manager and Uncle Tom Cobley all made their wild threats. Stilll didn't work, the 17.4 million voted to leave, some stayed at home and the rest of you lost.

Interestingly, at least for me, we have just met up with neighbours prior to doing the 500 mile drive round the North of Scotland and had a lovely meal in Fort Augustus last night. I just assumed he would be a Remainer being very middle class and conservative, but no! Without initiating the discussion, but for almost the same reasons as myself he came out with the fact the he was a Leaver too. We didn't dwell on it as there was lovely asparagus, venison and Scottish cheese to be eaten, along with a delicious bottle of South African red. 

However, I have to admit if I was in the H of L was a world class prat, had voted on 3% of available occasions, had a huge estate and was getting £80,000 a year in subsidies from the EU,, I might be tempted to change my mind 

So, you would be tempted to change your mind for purely selfish reasons and personal gain, but not as a result of reasoned debate concerning the future of the U.K. as a whole.

Gotta resolve a lot of ifs there including me joining the world class prat’s in the H of L and that’s not one I would remotely consider

Or it could be Resurrection just being his usual provocative self. He has conceded that he enjoys baiting us Remainers from time-to-time. Seems to work, too.  

I don't think so: the consistency of the pattern from other posts and his former incarnation (before his resurrection) strongly suggests that it goes much wider than the Brexiteers vs. Remainers.  That answer was just the vital piece needed to show the picture from which the jigsaw is made; many other pieces were already in place.

Huge posted:

I don't think so: the consistency of the pattern from other posts and his former incarnation (before his resurrection) suggests it goes wider than the Brexiteers vs. Remainers.

Blimey, stop speaking behind my back. It’s rude, y’kniw!

It's not behind your back - you're fully able to (hear) see what I'm (saying) writing!

I was just (speaking) writing to someone else about you, fully in (earshot) visibility - it could still be considered a little rude, but it's not behind your back!

P.S. your response also confirms the fit of another piece of the pattern, so you are consistent!  
You're pretty intelligent, so I also think you're probably aware of the pattern yourself.

Huge posted:

I don't think so: the consistency of the pattern from other posts and his former incarnation (before his resurrection) suggests it goes wider than the Brexiteers vs. Remainers.

As I read this I am at Culloden Field and am looking  for revenge! Anyone see Bonnie Prince Charlie?????

Resurrection posted:

As I read this I am at Culloden Field and am looking  for revenge! Anyone see Bonnie Prince Charlie?????

He's behind you! 

Resurrection posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

Resurrection posted:

Duncan Mann posted:

Huge posted:

Resurrection posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

So, to summarise,  theconsequences of leaving the EU are irrelevent so far as you are concerned.

Yep.

And presumably, you consider the consequences of this to other people to be equally irrelevant?

I'm never quite sure if Resurrection is playing to the gallery in his Walter Mitty style, or whether he genuinely believes what he says. Periodically he does seem to have moments of insight into the views of others. Assuming for a moment that his reply was genuinely felt, I do think this plays to the notion widely propounded post referendum that Brexiteers voted solely with their gut, and the gut is immune to reason. A parallel seems to be found in the fact that Donald Trump seems to maintain a support base of 35-40% however outrageous the things he says or does.

I have no problem with the UK leaving the EU off the back of a reasoned democratic debate, but I have a massive issue with Brexiteers consigning the UK to a miserable fate in so many spheres when they openly acknowledge that they just don't care about the impact on others. In this scenario, I'm happy to support any means, fair or foul, to frustrate such ignorance, and restore sanity to British politics.  

Thanks for the psychoanalysis Duncan, I really needed it! Countless times now I have given countless specific reasons why I voted Brexit but you guys seem to discount my countless reasons. The democratic aspect of the Referendum is also done and dusted, you remember the pre-Referendum thingy where Cameron, Obama, Junker, the Canadian Bank of England Manager and Uncle Tom Cobley all made their wild threats. Stilll didn't work, the 17.4 million voted to leave, some stayed at home and the rest of you lost.

Interestingly, at least for me, we have just met up with neighbours prior to doing the 500 mile drive round the North of Scotland and had a lovely meal in Fort Augustus last night. I just assumed he would be a Remainer being very middle class and conservative, but no! Without initiating the discussion, but for almost the same reasons as myself he came out with the fact the he was a Leaver too. We didn't dwell on it as there was lovely asparagus, venison and Scottish cheese to be eaten, along with a delicious bottle of South African red. 

However, I have to admit if I was in the H of L was a world class prat, had voted on 3% of available occasions, had a huge estate and was getting £80,000 a year in subsidies from the EU,, I might be tempted to change my mind 

So, you would be tempted to change your mind for purely selfish reasons and personal gain, but not as a result of reasoned debate concerning the future of the U.K. as a whole.

Gotta resolve a lot of ifs there including me joining the world class prat’s in the H of L and that’s not one I would remotely consider

Sure, but as you said, you might be tempted by what amounts to selfish, personal gain. But nothing else.

Resurrection posted:

Huge posted:

I don't think so: the consistency of the pattern from other posts and his former incarnation (before his resurrection) suggests it goes wider than the Brexiteers vs. Remainers.

As I read this I am at Culloden Field and am looking  for revenge! Anyone see Bonnie Prince Charlie?????

He's abandoned you and gone back to France!

Don Atkinson posted:

Resurrection posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

Resurrection posted:

Duncan Mann posted:

Huge posted:

Resurrection posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

So, to summarise,  theconsequences of leaving the EU are irrelevent so far as you are concerned.

Yep.

And presumably, you consider the consequences of this to other people to be equally irrelevant?

I'm never quite sure if Resurrection is playing to the gallery in his Walter Mitty style, or whether he genuinely believes what he says. Periodically he does seem to have moments of insight into the views of others. Assuming for a moment that his reply was genuinely felt, I do think this plays to the notion widely propounded post referendum that Brexiteers voted solely with their gut, and the gut is immune to reason. A parallel seems to be found in the fact that Donald Trump seems to maintain a support base of 35-40% however outrageous the things he says or does.

I have no problem with the UK leaving the EU off the back of a reasoned democratic debate, but I have a massive issue with Brexiteers consigning the UK to a miserable fate in so many spheres when they openly acknowledge that they just don't care about the impact on others. In this scenario, I'm happy to support any means, fair or foul, to frustrate such ignorance, and restore sanity to British politics.  

Thanks for the psychoanalysis Duncan, I really needed it! Countless times now I have given countless specific reasons why I voted Brexit but you guys seem to discount my countless reasons. The democratic aspect of the Referendum is also done and dusted, you remember the pre-Referendum thingy where Cameron, Obama, Junker, the Canadian Bank of England Manager and Uncle Tom Cobley all made their wild threats. Stilll didn't work, the 17.4 million voted to leave, some stayed at home and the rest of you lost.

Interestingly, at least for me, we have just met up with neighbours prior to doing the 500 mile drive round the North of Scotland and had a lovely meal in Fort Augustus last night. I just assumed he would be a Remainer being very middle class and conservative, but no! Without initiating the discussion, but for almost the same reasons as myself he came out with the fact the he was a Leaver too. We didn't dwell on it as there was lovely asparagus, venison and Scottish cheese to be eaten, along with a delicious bottle of South African red. 

However, I have to admit if I was in the H of L was a world class prat, had voted on 3% of available occasions, had a huge estate and was getting £80,000 a year in subsidies from the EU,, I might be tempted to change my mind 

So, you would be tempted to change your mind for purely selfish reasons and personal gain, but not as a result of reasoned debate concerning the future of the U.K. as a whole.

Gotta resolve a lot of ifs there including me joining the world class prat’s in the H of L and that’s not one I would remotely consider

Sure, but as you said, you might be tempted by what amounts to selfish, personal gain. But nothing else.

 

Ooh hard nosed interpretation of my posting! Let's turn it round, a greedy, useless, entitled, lazy member of the House of Lords who can only actually be bothered to vote on 3% of votes gets £80,000 a year from the EU but somehow turns up to vote to scupper the Brexit legislation. Am afraid his support alone for the cause of Remaining ensures I will always be a Brexiteer even if it is in the small hope that this piece of work gets his subsidies removed.

Ok Resurrection - let's turn it around.

As your posts have so ably persuaded me , it's all about me, me, me,  and nothing to do with the general good of our country. So here goes with a mirror image of your post: 

A bunch of greedy, self promoting egotistical xenophobes and borderline racists decide to support Brexit. They do this out of a motive of self interest and self promotion, combined with a dislike of Johnny foreigner in general, who hates us and always seems to be picking on us simply because we are British. He even deigns to legislate to tell us what to do from time to time. How dare he - we are British? These self promoting Brexiteers continue to push for a so-called 'Hard Brexit'  to satisfy their dogmatic and entrenched ideology, despite the fact that all the  evidence points to the fact that this would be to the detriment of the country as a whole and Northern Ireland in particular. Am afraid the actions of these people alone ensures I will always be a remainer and will do anything I can in order to sabotage Brexit, no matter the impact on the people of this country even if it is in the small hope that these nasty pieces of work don' t get their way.

A good way to unite the country and persuade anyone on the opposite side of the Brexit argument to come over to my side, or a deliberate attempt to fan the flames of division - you decide!   

Crikey 96 pages of the same old thing

Drewy posted:

Crikey 96 pages of the same old thing

Unfortunately the same old thing hasn’t been stopped yet...

Innocent Bystander posted:

Drewy posted:

Crikey 96 pages of the same old thing

Unfortunately the same old thing hasn’t been stopped yet...

It's the nature of this particular pattern.

Once established it can't be altered by any amount of rationality from the outside; it can only be changed from the inside (and I have specific reason to know this ).

Just in case someone stumbles across my last post and believes that it truly reflects my point of view, I hasten to add the following comment. Whilst I do believe that a number of the Brexit leaders have been and are self promoting, and that a number of them also appear to be at least slightly xenophobic, my last post was intended to be deliberately vulgar and exaggerated in order to parody some of the more extreme and opinionated posts on the other side of the Brexit argument.   

This thread started out as a medium for genuine debate about the pros and cons of Brexit and the observation that those people on the 'remain' side appeared to  be far too complacent about the likely result of the referendum. Some contributors to the forum now appear to be far more interested in triumphalism and dogma rather than constructive or rational and logical argument. 

Innocent Bystander posted:

Drewy posted:

Crikey 96 pages of the same old thing

Unfortunately the same old thing hasn’t been stopped yet...

Yep, I wish you would just give in, IB!

On a lighter note, next time you're in Portmahomack go to the Oyster Catcher B&B and restaurant. Seafood paradise.

I for one understood the point you were making in your earlier post, Hmack.  Regrettably it seems to be a feature of the Brexit debate that while there are those who want to understand and argue the practicalities and economic aspects of staying or leaving the EU, and do so out of a concern for the country and society, the debate seems to have an irresistible pull exerted by those motivated by ideology, prejudice, ego and ambition. And that is not wholly a dig at the right-wing Brexiteers as I sense there are those on the hard left whose arguments seem motivated more by anti-Tory ideology than what's good for the country.  This raises passions to a level which seem to drown out reasoned debate.

It's hard too draw out any positives in this but I harbour a degree of comfort in (a) the belief that Mrs May and her Chancellor seem practical and reasoned by nature and hopefully will moderate the excesses of the hard Brexiteers and (b) if the PM is unsuccessful in this the likelihood is that the conservatives will implode, another general election will follow and a new government, faced with an impasse within the UK over Brexit terms, will decide to seek another mandate from the people.  

MDS posted:

I for one understood the point you were making in your earlier post, Hmack.  Regrettably it seems to be a feature of the Brexit debate that while there are those who want to understand and argue the practicalities and economic aspects of staying or leaving the EU, and do so out of a concern for the country and society, the debate seems to have an irresistible pull exerted by those motivated by ideology, prejudice, ego and ambition. And that is not wholly a dig at the right-wing Brexiteers as I sense there are those on the hard left whose arguments seem motivated more by anti-Tory ideology than what's good for the country.  This raises passions to a level which seem to drown out reasoned debate.

It's hard too draw out any positives in this but I harbour a degree of comfort in (a) the belief that Mrs May and her Chancellor seem practical and reasoned by nature and hopefully will moderate the excesses of the hard Brexiteers and (b) if the PM is unsuccessful in this the likelihood is that the conservatives will implode, another general election will follow and a new government, faced with an impasse within the UK over Brexit terms, will decide to seek another mandate from the people.  

Indeed, I am fascinated by TM's constant desire to kick the can down the road, which has reached a new art-form with the cabinet currently tasked to workshop two conflicting solutions to the customs union conundrum, both of which have already been rejected by the EU commission. 

Could it be that by deferring the decision, TM is following the path suggested by author Ian McEwan, who has noted that:

“A gang of angry old men, irritable even in victory, are shaping the future of the country against the inclinations of its youth. And a handful of billionaires lavishly funded the Brexit campaigns for their own financial reasons. But, by 2019 the country could be in a receptive mood: 2.5 million over-18-year-olds, freshly franchised and mostly remainers. And also 1.5 million oldsters, mostly Brexiters, freshly in their graves.”

It's a conflict of conspiracies!

P.S. I don't believe in conspiracy theory, I believe in cock-up theory!

Resurrection posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

Drewy posted:

Crikey 96 pages of the same old thing

Unfortunately the same old thing hasn’t been stopped yet...

Yep, I wish you would just give in, IB!

On a lighter note, next time you're in Portmahomack go to the Oyster Catcher B&B and restaurant. Seafood paradise.

Leaving aside your malaise presently centred on Brexit, from which I wish you a speedy recovery but fear there is no cure, and being partial to seafood myself,  I googled Portmahomack as I had never heard of it.

At first my heart quickened because i saw it was in Tarbat, thinking for a moment it must be the delightful seafood restaurant I visited many years ago in a place of that name, not remembering the name of the restaurant itself, but then I saw where it was - the place I am thinking of is on the opposite coast and further north in Sutherland, and spelt differently: Tarbet. Using Google maps to zoom in on Tarbet, I am reminded that that restaurant is called the Shorehouse. Admittedly 29 years now since I ate there, on honeymoon after a gloriously sunny day when I got sunburnt watching puffins on nearby Handa Island, i remember the food as exquisitely good, and am determined to go back one day, hopefully now in the not too distant future - so I was pleased to note that  it the restaurant indeed still there, and run by the same family. Maybe I’ll do a round trip and include a comparison of west and east coast seafood in  the two Tarb*ts!

Hmack posted:

Ok Resurrection - let's turn it around.

As your posts have so ably persuaded me , it's all about me, me, me,  and nothing to do with the general good of our country. So here goes with a mirror image of your post: 

A bunch of greedy, self promoting egotistical xenophobes and borderline racists decide to support Brexit. They do this out of a motive of self interest and self promotion, combined with a dislike of Johnny foreigner in general, who hates us and always seems to be picking on us simply because we are British. He even deigns to legislate to tell us what to do from time to time. How dare he - we are British? These self promoting Brexiteers continue to push for a so-called 'Hard Brexit'  to satisfy their dogmatic and entrenched ideology, despite the fact that all the  evidence points to the fact that this would be to the detriment of the country as a whole and Northern Ireland in particular. Am afraid the actions of these people alone ensures I will always be a remainer and will do anything I can in order to sabotage Brexit, no matter the impact on the people of this country even if it is in the small hope that these nasty pieces of work don' t get their way.

A good way to unite the country and persuade anyone on the opposite side of the Brexit argument to come over to my side, or a deliberate attempt to fan the flames of division - you decide!   

 

I don't have to fan anything. If you lot would stop contesting the vote we won then all incendiary discussions would stop. But you won't and therefore neither will I.

Innocent Bystander posted:

Resurrection posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

Drewy posted:

Crikey 96 pages of the same old thing

Unfortunately the same old thing hasn’t been stopped yet...

Yep, I wish you would just give in, IB!

On a lighter note, next time you're in Portmahomack go to the Oyster Catcher B&B and restaurant. Seafood paradise.

Leaving aside your malaise presently centred on Brexit, from which I wish you a speedy recovery but fear there is no cure, and being partial to seafood myself,  I googled Portmahomack as I had never heard of it.

At first my heart quickened because i saw it was in Tarbat, thinking for a moment it must be the delightful seafood restaurant I visited many years ago in a place of that name, not remembering the name of the restaurant itself, but then I saw where it was - the place I am thinking of is on the opposite coast and further north in Sutherland, and spelt differently: Tarbet. Using Google maps to zoom in on Tarbet, I am reminded that that restaurant is called the Shorehouse. Admittedly 29 years now since I ate there, on honeymoon after a gloriously sunny day when I got sunburnt watching puffins on nearby Handa Island, i remember the food as exquisitely good, and am determined to go back one day, hopefully now in the not too distant future - so I was pleased to note that  it the restaurant indeed still there, and run by the same family. Maybe I’ll do a round trip and include a comparison of west and east coast seafood in  the two Tarb*ts!

The Oyster Catcher is very quirky and at first I was unsure about the whole place. It has been run by a husband and wife for the last 17 years. The theme, if there is one, is lobster. I had scallops and haggis as a starter then sole fillets stuffed with lobster. There were endless amuse bouches and as Michelin would say, il vaut la déviation.

There's something very fishy about some of your posts, Resurrection.

Resurrection posted:

"I don't have to fan anything. If you lot would stop contesting the vote we won then all incendiary discussions would stop. But you won't and therefore neither will I".

What you don't appear to be able to grasp is that the referendum involved a simple binary choice - 'yes' or 'no', whereas the detail surrounding the negotiation of terms and our ultimate deal (or no deal) with the EU is exceptionally complex.  

You'lot' (to borrow your label) appear to believe A) that the fact that you won the initial binary vote entitles you to absolute and uncontested control over the detail of the Brexit negotiations, and B) that your interpretation of what Brexit means (apparently it means a 'Hard' Brexit with no customs union or partnership) aligns with that of every individual who voted to leave the EU.

That belief is plainly ludicrous and politically and economically dangerous, and that is why those of us who voted differently don't feel the inclination to walk away and leave you and the Brexit hardliners to it.

 'But, by 2019 the country could be in a receptive mood: 2.5 million over-18-year-olds, freshly franchised and mostly remainers. And also 1.5 million oldsters, mostly Brexiters, freshly in their graves.”

I personally haven't heard of Ian Mckeowan is but I am sure with stuff like this his books must sell like hot cakes. The quote is really quite unpleasant and disrespectful.