Hmack posted:

Resurrection posted:

"i also am bemused that you seem to believe that someone as right wing as myself would be susceptible to anything said or paid for by Putin".

Do you really think that Putin is 'left-wing' in any sensible definition of the term as it applies to British politics? Actually, he has a lot in common with that favourite of yours and self made multi-millionaire - Jacob Rees-Mogg. Putin is also pretty much a 'self made' man, and he certainly eclipses Rees-Mogg in terms of the wealth he has accumulated, being arguably the richest individual in the world. A certain President, whom I suspect most on this forum would view as being on the 'far-right' appears to have considerable admiration for Putin. Why wouldn't you, since the accumulation of wealth appears to be the attribute that most attracts your admiration?

So, Jeremy Corbyn is treasonous and a traitor (your words) for allegedly meeting with 'a Russian' very many years ago, but you have no qualms about Aaron Banks collaborating with (or being funded by) Putin in respect of the leave.eu organisation, as pointed out by Duncan Mann. Is this correct, or would you also view Aaron banks and the rest of the leave.eu organisation as being treasonous and traitors for their links to Putin and his money? 

"Still, I know that you are simply mischief making, Duncan, and are just playing devil’s advocate for the very tenuous reasoning and justifications put forward by Remainers in general for their anti-democratic as well as anti-populist behaviour".  

On the contrary, I know that you are deliberately mischief making at best, although some of the deliberately inflammatory words and comments that you have used in both this and your earlier alter-ego fall pretty much into the definition of 'Troll'.  

Mr Moderator, he’s being nasty to me. He’s calling me a, a, a Troll. 

You are all over the place with your response.. I don't like in no particular order Jeremy Corbyn, Aaron Banks or Putin and JRM has nothing in common with Putin, despite your protestations.

You are also getting very presumptuous  and personal about who or what I like or dislike. I am arguing sbout Brexit you appear to be arguing about me. Back to the football analogy, you appear to be playing the man and not the ball.

Dissect that Hmack!

Huge posted:

Hmack posted:

Resurrection posted:

"i also am bemused that you seem to believe that someone as right wing as myself would be susceptible to anything said or paid for by Putin".

Do you really think that Putin is 'left-wing' in any sensible definition of the term as it applies to British politics? Actually, he has a lot in common with that favourite of yours and self made multi-millionaire - Jacob Rees-Mogg. Putin is also pretty much a 'self made' man, and he certainly eclipses Rees-Mogg in terms of the wealth he has accumulated, being arguably the richest individual in the world. A certain President, whom I suspect most on this forum would view as being on the 'far-right' appears to have considerable admiration for Putin. Why wouldn't you, since the accumulation of wealth appears to be the attribute that most attracts your admiration?

So, Jeremy Corbyn is treasonous and a traitor (your words) for allegedly meeting with 'a Russian' very many years ago, but you have no qualms about Aaron Banks collaborating with (or being funded by) Putin in respect of the leave.eu organisation, as pointed out by Duncan Mann. Is this correct, or would you also view Aaron banks and the rest of the leave.eu organisation as being treasonous and traitors for their links to Putin and his money? 

"Still, I know that you are simply mischief making, Duncan, and are just playing devil’s advocate for the very tenuous reasoning and justifications put forward by Remainers in general for their anti-democratic as well as anti-populist behaviour".  

On the contrary, I know that you are deliberately mischief making at best, although some of the deliberately inflammatory words and comments that you have used in both this and your earlier alter-ego fall pretty much into the definition of 'Troll'.  

Because Putin is a Socialist (but more actually only in the same sense as of the former German Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei [National Socialist German Workers' Party]).

I am well aware of the derivation of the word Nazi and am also well aware that It includes the word 'Socialist", which has been a useful word to legitimise many of the world's horrors including Mao Tse Tung, Stalin and Pol Pot. When all these people define themselves as Socialist, commonly understood as left wing,  I do believe you are playing linguistic gymnastics to distance your own predilections by denouncing all these self proclaimed Socialists as Right Wing.

Actually, it is even quite difficult to apply the right wing epithet to Trump who has changed his political allegiances more often than a Socialist would change its socks. You might call him a Populist Pragmatist on a polite day. 

Resurrection posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

The validity of a referendum taken against the backdrop of misinformation, lack of information, false information and media stirring (e.g latent racism)  is patently absurd. As I have said many times over in different words: as the reality of Brexit and its effects becomes clear - effects which different individuals may deem positive or negative - the ONLY sensible, wise, logical and democratic thing to do is to hold a confirmatory referendum before actually implementing the exit.

People who want the best for the country would welcome that, regardless which way they want it, while hoping that if anything more are now convinced that Brexit is a good idea. People who for whatever reason voted for what they now believe is the wrong way, whichever way that was, would welcome it (and I for one know people to whom this applies). People who believe in democracy would recognise the validity, Committed Brexiteers who genuinely believe the majority want what Brexit means in practice need have nothing to fear. The only people who have any reason to reject a  confirmatory referendum are Brexiteers who know or strongly suspect that the majority are likely not to confirm the wish to leave , being also people who have no qualms about suppressing the will of the majority for their own, I suggest probably selfish, ends - instead they bandy about the statistic of the long distant and indisputably ill-informed original referendum

I would not give you false hope etc, IB. However, looks like Dominic Grieve and Nicky Morgan have caved. Probably goes along the lines of self preservation, fear of deselection, maybe even a sudden epiphany, who knows?

You are getting no confirmatory Referendum now or ever. How many games of football did you play as a kid where it was best of three goals, then upped to best of five and so on? You might say it was child’s play as is the prevaricating of the Westminster bubble. 

You don’t appear to understand the meaning of “confirmation” - I have never suggested a re-run.

Or rather, I believe you do fully understand, but, as I have said before, you are terrified in case there actually is one, as you know, with as near absolute certainty as anything can be certain in life, that the result would not be what you want.

You are wasting your time with this Resurrection, its like arguing with Scientologists or other zealots. They will never accept what we did to them by voting to get out of the ghastly EU. Assuming we ever do of course. They haven't got past the anger stage of grief yet. It will be tears before they reach acceptance and by then the EU will have self destructed anyway.

ltaylor posted:

You are wasting your time with this Resurrection, its like arguing with Scientologists or other zealots. They will never accept what we did to them by voting to get out of the ghastly EU. Assuming we ever do of course. They haven't got past the anger stage of grief yet. It will be tears before they reach acceptance and by then the EU will have self destructed anyway.

Ha! Ha! I know lt. Was just commenting on The Spectator that this lot, not the forum, the monkeys in Parliament, will still be debating this when we fall out next year. 

ltaylor posted:

You are wasting your time with this Resurrection, its like arguing with Scientologists or other zealots. They will never accept what we did to them by voting to get out of the ghastly EU. Assuming we ever do of course. They haven't got past the anger stage of grief yet. It will be tears before they reach acceptance and by then the EU will have self destructed anyway.

Do you, also,  stick to the ludicrous dogma of “the people have spoken”, rejecting out of hand any notion of a confirmatory vote now the picture is so much clearer? 

ltaylor posted:

You are wasting your time with this Resurrection, its like arguing with Scientologists or other zealots. They will never accept what we did to them by voting to get out of the ghastly EU. Assuming we ever do of course. They haven't got past the anger stage of grief yet. It will be tears before they reach acceptance and by then the EU will have self destructed anyway.

Classy comment, ltaylor - comparing Remainers with "Scientologists or other zealots" Real classy. And of course, not even a tiny bit patronising. Yup, 48% of the population are seen by you as Scientologists... Says it all really.

Yes, I am angry ltaylor - angry that you and your fellow Brexiters have decided that I should become poorer in monetary terms, and will likely become considerably poorer again in future whatever form of Brexit ensues. Ever stop to consider how your decision impacts on others? 

I am angry that my children will have fewer opportunities in the future in the name of fantasy unicorn chasing. I'm guessing that wasn't a concern to you?

I'm angry that public services - already in a parlous state - will deteriorate still further as our worsening GDP buckles under the strain of an ageing population. Ever look at the state of the roads? Pick up a paper and read about the state of the state education sector? And don't get me started on the funding crisis in the NHS - though I suspect that like Resurrection, you have private medical insurance?

The reality is that Brexit will leave the UK diminished in so many areas of our national life. And for what? Even TM has admitted that there is NO scenario in which the UK will be anything other than considerably worse off in terms of GDP. We will become a rule-taker, whether you like it or not - whereas we have had considerable influence within the EU rule making sphere. We will end up with either interminable transition (so you'd better get used to the idea of posting comments on this thread in a few years time), or if we crash out, you'd better hold on to your hat as the real flak starts coming in your direction...

My sense of things at the moment is that the Brexiteers in the Tory party have something of a grip over TM's weak government and, as we have seen today, are holding the potential Tory rebels at bay. This is I think in part because those rebels are fearful of being accused of bringing down the government. They are also wary of being accused of trying to reverse the result of the referendum, accusations stoked by some of the Brexiteers. In relation to the so-called Grieve amendment I think that accusation is unfair as it is designed to give parliament more of a say in the increasingly unlikely scenario that the UK may crash out of the EU without an agreement. Anyway I think this uneasy position within the Tory party and parliament looks like it might continue to hold while negotiations with the EU grind on.  

However, once those negotiations near a conclusion I can see the balance shifting.  The negotiated deal looks more and more likely to contain lots of compromises and long transitional periods to the point where it will be hard to see any material difference post Jan 2019 from the UK having technically left the EU.  This prospect will I think infuriate the hard Brexiteer MPs.  But suddenly the burden of arguing for things to change will have shifted from the rebels to the Brexiteers.  They will have to make the case for the government to go back to Brussels to negotiate a 'better' deal or, even harder, to argue for the UK to crash out of the EU without a deal.  Labour and the other parties will likely accept a negotiated soft-Brexit and without opposition support the Brexiteers don't have anything like the numbers to defeat the government.   So while the likes of Rees-Mogg and other Brexieteers should enjoy their parliamentary 'victories' of last week and this, I think they are going have a very unhappy and frustrated end to the calendar year.  

MDS posted:

My sense of things at the moment is that the Brexiteers in the Tory party have something of a grip over TM's weak government and, as we have seen today, are holding the potential Tory rebels at bay. This is I think in part because those rebels are fearful of being accused of bringing down the government. They are also wary of being accused of trying to reverse the result of the referendum, accusations stoked by some of the Brexiteers. In relation to the so-called Grieve amendment I think that accusation is unfair as it is designed to give parliament more of a say in the increasingly unlikely scenario that the UK may crash out of the EU without an agreement. Anyway I think this uneasy position within the Tory party and parliament looks like it might continue to hold while negotiations with the EU grind on.  

However, once those negotiations near a conclusion I can see the balance shifting.  The negotiated deal looks more and more likely to contain lots of compromises and long transitional periods to the point where it will be hard to see any material difference post Jan 2019 from the UK having technically left the EU.  This prospect will I think infuriate the hard Brexiteer MPs.  But suddenly the burden of arguing for things to change will have shifted from the rebels to the Brexiteers.  They will have to make the case for the government to go back to Brussels to negotiate a 'better' deal or, even harder, to argue for the UK to crash out of the EU without a deal.  Labour and the other parties will likely accept a negotiated soft-Brexit and without opposition support the Brexiteers don't have anything like the numbers to defeat the government.   So while the likes of Rees-Mogg and other Brexieteers should enjoy their parliamentary 'victories' of last week and this, I think they are going have a very unhappy and frustrated end to the calendar year.  

Unfortunately for yourselves, although you do have a current majority within Westminster what is abundantly clear is that MPs own survival is paramount and their commitment to remaining in the dead duck EU will prove to be a bridge too far. Might be alright for Clarke and Sarah Wolston, who isn't a Tory anyway. but some would prefer not to make their own exit in 2022.

Classy comment, ltaylor - comparing Remainers with "Scientologists or other zealots" Real classy. And of course, not even a tiny bit patronising. Yup, 48% of the population are seen by you as Scientologists... 

Oh come on, he wasn't casting the dispersion at all the people that voted Remain, rather just the ones who look for every technical reason to oppose the Leave process, some of whom post on the forum.

Ray

thebigfredc posted:

Classy comment, ltaylor - comparing Remainers with "Scientologists or other zealots" Real classy. And of course, not even a tiny bit patronising. Yup, 48% of the population are seen by you as Scientologists... 

Oh come on, he wasn't casting the dispersion at all the people that voted Remain, rather just the ones who look for every technical reason to oppose the Leave process, some of whom post on the forum.

Ray

‘Oh come on, he wasn’t calling all of you total and utter morons, just those of you who are total and utter morons.’

Keeping it classy, haha!

Resurrection posted:

Huge posted:

Because Putin is a Socialist (but more actually only in the same sense as of the former German Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei [National Socialist German Workers' Party]).

I am well aware of the derivation of the word Nazi and am also well aware that It includes the word 'Socialist", which has been a useful word to legitimise many of the world's horrors including Mao Tse Tung, Stalin and Pol Pot. When all these people define themselves as Socialist, commonly understood as left wing,  I do believe you are playing linguistic gymnastics to distance your own predilections by denouncing all these self proclaimed Socialists as Right Wing.

Actually, it is even quite difficult to apply the right wing epithet to Trump who has changed his political allegiances more often than a Socialist would change its socks. You might call him a Populist Pragmatist on a polite day. 

1  I have made no statement to suggest that you don't know the derivation of the term Nazi.  Furthermore, given that my own political position is, overall, slightly right of centre, your disparaging assertion in the first paragraph makes no sense at all, since it appears to be based on noting more than your unfounded assumptions about the details of my political beliefs.  It's noting more than a yet another ad hominem attack.

2  I've made made no specific statements ascribing any particular political appellation to Trump.

Are Airbus and BMW simply pushing the Gov towards a "Deal", ie ensuring we don't wind up with Ressurection's idealistic "No deal and sod them" outcome, for which he assures us that 17.4m of our electorate voted ?

Or are they going to pull out of the UK anyway, and Brexit is just an excuse ?

Following on from my post above, just WHAT will it take for TM to wake up ?

Don Atkinson posted:

Are Airbus and BMW simply pushing the Gov towards a "Deal", ie ensuring we don't wind up with Ressurection's idealistic "No deal and sod them" outcome, for which he assures us that 17.4m of our electorate voted ?

Or are they going to pull out of the UK anyway, and Brexit is just an excuse ?

I suspect the various actors were awaiting the outcome of this week’s vote before playing their hands. There us every chance that our government will simply capitulate as usual and invite  Airbus and BMW to move their activities wherever they want, JLR are moving Discovery production  to Slovakia alongside quite a few either car companies. As usual, our government would probably roll over and play dead.

Doesn’t really matter whether we are in or out of the EU, defending our manufacturing, agricultural, fishing, energy production, water supplies etc is the last thing on our politicians’ minds as these resources have all been asset stripped at a great rate of knots since we joined the EU. Drinking water here helps fund the Ontario Teachers pension fund.. EIectricity funds German and French companies. Spanish fishing boats legitimately plunder our seas. 

Just like the double whammy all of you who commute by train are forced to pay the highest fares anywhere because you have to pay the franchise fee or tax to the government before you actually pay for running the actual service. 

This country has been bled white on the altar of alleged free trade, open borders and fee movement of people and business. All of which has hapoened to preserve our ‘credentials’ ’ within the EU.

Oh, am just off to Italy on holiday tomorrow. 

Don Atkinson posted:

Are Airbus and BMW simply pushing the Gov towards a "Deal", ie ensuring we don't wind up with Ressurection's idealistic "No deal and sod them" outcome, for which he assures us that 17.4m of our electorate voted ?

Or are they going to pull out of the UK anyway, and Brexit is just an excuse ?

Reading around the subject, Don, it genuinely does appear that Airbus in particular are in a bind, not of their making - their logistics chain simply cannot function as intended in the event of any form of trade friction - as of course crashing out would be friction on steroids. I gather that this friction would not only bring Broughton and Bristol to a grinding halt, but the other Airbus plants in France, Germany and Spain too. My understanding is that Airbus are planning to mitigate the consequences by stockpiling parts in the UK, but the costs associated with this will run into the £Bns, and is but a sticking plaster on the problem.

It is telling that our European neighbours are spending serious money preparing for a hard Brexit (Google the investment being made at Rotterdam port as an example), whereas the UK has at best probably compiled a PDF document from Wikipedia sources... seriously. One of the reasons why the Michele Barnier is able to face down TM is that he knows full well that there is no will in the UK to invest in preparations for crashing out - allegedly at the insistence of HM Treasury - but I suspect TM is playing the long game to achieve a forced soft Brexit, by constantly kicking the can down the road until the hard Brexiters have to face the harsh reality that crashing out is political suicide for the Tory party.

That having been said, for  JRM, the battle is to secure his £100M in offshore funds against the scrutiny of EU tax evasion legislation due in 2019, so pretty much existential so far as he is concerned - so he will fight to the last for the hardest of Brexits, and minimal oversight by the ECJ...

SIGN THE PETITION 

>>>  peoples-vote.uk <<<

WE, THE PEOPLE

naim_nymph posted:

SIGN THE PETITION 

>>>  peoples-vote.uk <<<

 

WE, THE PEOPLE

We, the undersigned,

demand a People’s Vote on the Brexit deal.

 

 

 

Signed - and thanks for the link, Naim_Nymph!

Resurrection posted:

Doesn’t really matter whether we are in or out of the EU, defending our manufacturing, agricultural, fishing, energy production, water supplies etc is the last thing on our politicians’ minds....

At least on the minds of Brexiters - witness Boris Johnson's latest pearl of wisdom:

BORIS Johnson is caught up in yet another diplomatic scandal, after he was reported to have said "f*ck business" when asked about fears over Brexit.

EU diplomats have expressed their shock and disgust at the comments, which they say came during a Foreign Office reception last week celebrating the Queen's Birthday.

Duncan Mann posted:

ltaylor posted:

You are wasting your time with this Resurrection, its like arguing with Scientologists or other zealots. They will never accept what we did to them by voting to get out of the ghastly EU. Assuming we ever do of course. They haven't got past the anger stage of grief yet. It will be tears before they reach acceptance and by then the EU will have self destructed anyway.

Classy comment, ltaylor - comparing Remainers with "Scientologists or other zealots" Real classy. And of course, not even a tiny bit patronising. Yup, 48% of the population are seen by you as Scientologists... Says it all really.

Yes, I am angry ltaylor - angry that you and your fellow Brexiters have decided that I should become poorer in monetary terms, and will likely become considerably poorer again in future whatever form of Brexit ensues. Ever stop to consider how your decision impacts on others? 

I am angry that my children will have fewer opportunities in the future in the name of fantasy unicorn chasing. I'm guessing that wasn't a concern to you?

I'm angry that public services - already in a parlous state - will deteriorate still further as our worsening GDP buckles under the strain of an ageing population. Ever look at the state of the roads? Pick up a paper and read about the state of the state education sector? And don't get me started on the funding crisis in the NHS - though I suspect that like Resurrection, you have private medical insurance?

The reality is that Brexit will leave the UK diminished in so many areas of our national life. And for what? Even TM has admitted that there is NO scenario in which the UK will be anything other than considerably worse off in terms of GDP. We will become a rule-taker, whether you like it or not - whereas we have had considerable influence within the EU rule making sphere. We will end up with either interminable transition (so you'd better get used to the idea of posting comments on this thread in a few years time), or if we crash out, you'd better hold on to your hat as the real flak starts coming in your direction...

If the shoe fits and all that. I see a few hundred losers were out today bleating about a second vote. You lost, time to move on with your lives. My point was actually directed to Resurrection who I feel is wasting his time with people clearly suffering from Brexit Derangement Syndrome. 

ltaylor posted:

If the shoe fits and all that. I see a few hundred losers were out today bleating about a second vote. You lost, time to move on with your lives.

Haha, that's hilarious, thanks for that!

An estimated 100,000 people march to demand a say in the way the country heads.  On the same day, it's reported that nearly twice as many people are in favour of a vote on the final deal compared with those who oppose such an obviously democratic move.  And that only 25% of people think we shouldn't get a final say on the deal.

Yet that gets translated into a few hundred losers who should move on.  Such a paragon of clear thinking!  Such a stalwart defence of democracy!  Such a clear indication that the country's doing really well and is headed directly for the sunlit uplands we were promised!

If BJ ever were to be sacked, we clearly have a razor sharp diplomatic talent among us who could step unto the breach.  Such a shame that he never will be.

Duncan Mann posted:

Resurrection posted:

Doesn’t really matter whether we are in or out of the EU, defending our manufacturing, agricultural, fishing, energy production, water supplies etc is the last thing on our politicians’ minds....

At least on the minds of Brexiters - witness Boris Johnson's latest pearl of wisdom:

BORIS Johnson is caught up in yet another diplomatic scandal, after he was reported to have said "f*ck business" when asked about fears over Brexit.

EU diplomats have expressed their shock and disgust at the comments, which they say came during a Foreign Office reception last week celebrating the Queen's Birthday.

Asked about the fears business leaders had over Brexit, Johnson replied: "F*ck business."

Johnson, who was speaking to Rudolf Huygelen, Belgium's ambassador to the EU, was overheard saying they would fight Theresa May's soft Brexit "and win".

 

He also said the UK was as divided as it had been since the English Civil War.

Sources close to Johnson are reported to have disputed the claim he swore, and said he was attacking "vested interests" of groups like the Confederation of British Industry.

Speaking to the Telegraph, an EU diplomat said: “It is shocking for him declare he would take the battle directly to Theresa May and speaking so openly about it. He wasn’t hiding his intentions at all.

“I was shocked by how crude and crass he was, as if he didn’t care for the consequences and especially not the economic consequences of Brexit.”

The paper reported that another, when presented with the comments, simply replied: "Jesus Christ."

Says it all...

Depressing but not surprising.  

Dave***t posted:

ltaylor posted:

If the shoe fits and all that. I see a few hundred losers were out today bleating about a second vote. You lost, time to move on with your lives.

Haha, that's hilarious, thanks for that!

An estimated 100,000 people march to demand a say in the way the country heads.  On the same day, it's reported that nearly twice as many people are in favour of a vote on the final deal compared with those who oppose such an obviously democratic move.  And that only 25% of people think we shouldn't get a final say on the deal.

Yet that gets translated into a few hundred losers who should move on.  Such a paragon of clear thinking!  Such a stalwart defence of democracy!  Such a clear indication that the country's doing really well and is headed directly for the sunlit uplands we were promised!

If BJ ever were to be sacked, we clearly have a razor sharp diplomatic talent among us who could step unto the breach.  Such a shame that he never will be.

Much more peaceful and sensible here in Bologna. What is it with you Brits?

MDS posted:

Duncan Mann posted:

Resurrection posted:

Doesn’t really matter whether we are in or out of the EU, defending our manufacturing, agricultural, fishing, energy production, water supplies etc is the last thing on our politicians’ minds....

At least on the minds of Brexiters - witness Boris Johnson's latest pearl of wisdom:

BORIS Johnson is caught up in yet another diplomatic scandal, after he was reported to have said "f*ck business" when asked about fears over Brexit.

EU diplomats have expressed their shock and disgust at the comments, which they say came during a Foreign Office reception last week celebrating the Queen's Birthday.

Asked about the fears business leaders had over Brexit, Johnson replied: "F*ck business."

Johnson, who was speaking to Rudolf Huygelen, Belgium's ambassador to the EU, was overheard saying they would fight Theresa May's soft Brexit "and win".

 

He also said the UK was as divided as it had been since the English Civil War.

Sources close to Johnson are reported to have disputed the claim he swore, and said he was attacking "vested interests" of groups like the Confederation of British Industry.

Speaking to the Telegraph, an EU diplomat said: “It is shocking for him declare he would take the battle directly to Theresa May and speaking so openly about it. He wasn’t hiding his intentions at all.

“I was shocked by how crude and crass he was, as if he didn’t care for the consequences and especially not the economic consequences of Brexit.”

The paper reported that another, when presented with the comments, simply replied: "Jesus Christ."

Says it all...

Depressing but not surprising.  

I have to say he can be a little crass. Still, anything but Soubry, Grieve or Clarke, eh!

Resurrection posted:

Much more peaceful and sensible here in Bologna. What is it with you Brits?

Are you going to emigrate then?  And by implication of your words you exclude yourself from being a member of 'us Brits':

So why should anyone pay any attention to your views on Brexit; since it's not relevant to anyone who doesn't consider themselves a Brit.

From now on, the only reason you would have a reason for posing anything further on Brexit is clearly just to stir up trouble!

Sorry, but you've now excluded yourself from having any relevance in this thread.