Are we sleep-walking out of Europe ?

Huge posted:

Resurrection posted:

Much more peaceful and sensible here in Bologna. What is it with you Brits?

Are you going to emigrate then?

Actually Huge, you probably can’t appreciate now much I appreciate Europe and it’s different cultures, but I do. Lovely evening in Bologna, lovely city, lovely food and wonderful atmosphere. And I love la lingua. Bizarre, eh!

Resurrection posted:

Much more peaceful and sensible here in Bologna. What is it with you Brits?

Ah yes Bologna, ‘red Bologna’, the renowned communist-leaning city. Last time I was there, a student group were holding a series of public speeches/debates in the main square. It was quite encouraging after the far right activity I’d seen in the days prior. I’d love to go back and be able to see the spectacular painting of Satan which I believe is in the cathedral.

Odd place for you to choose for a holiday, I’m surprised you didn’t burst into flames upon setting foot within its borders.

Still, glad you’re finding it sensible in comparison with these riven islands, in thrall to far right maniacs as they are.

It was the second anniversary of the referendum recently......it doesn't feel like a lot has changed in the country .......so far at least.

thebigfredc posted:

It was the second anniversary of the referendum recently......it doesn't feel like a lot has changed in the country .......so far at least.

 

Which planet are you living on............?

Let me think ........ my £ didn’t buy me quite as many Kr in Norway this year or the year before, nor quite as many Euro as last year in Italy or Germany the year before. ......

......more of my students are getting jobs with Foreign airlines than UK airlines, not exclusively so, but increasingly so.......

Many things have changed, or come to light during the past two years, and a fair few of the problem ones are a direct result of Brexit.

However, it is brilliant that the FULL £350m pw AND MORE is going to be allocated to the NHS. ........ oops, we are going to increase taxation to provide the funds !

I ask you ! You couldn’t make it up, not even with a new season of “Yes Minister”

Unfortunately, it’s no joke.

ltaylor posted:

If the shoe fits and all that. I see a few hundred losers were out today bleating about a second vote. You lost, time to move on with your lives. My point was actually directed to Resurrection who I feel is wasting his time with people clearly suffering from Brexit Derangement Syndrome. 

No, actually, “we” didn’t lose - it wasn’t a competition, but a referendum on leaving.  There was no winner or loser, just a count of the number of people on the day voting one way or another on whatever information was available to them at the time. Unfortunately, however, the general public will lose out, and quite severely, if/when Brexit actually goes through, with significant financial loss and in some cases a lot more where people lose their jobs.

Most of the people who voted in favor of Brexit are low skilled ones, and as a direct result of their own votes, they will most likely to lose their own jobs when Brexit is actually happening. But having said that, some of the well paid jobs in the financial city will go as well as big investment banks will relocated their services / resources to Frankfurt, Paris, Zurich or even Geneva.

Don Atkinson posted:

thebigfredc posted:

It was the second anniversary of the referendum recently......it doesn't feel like a lot has changed in the country .......so far at least.

 

Which planet are you living on............?

Let me think ........ my £ didn’t buy me quite as many Kr in Norway this year or the year before, nor quite as many Euro as last year in Italy or Germany the year before. ......

......more of my students are getting jobs with Foreign airlines than UK airlines, not exclusively so, but increasingly so.......

Many things have changed, or come to light during the past two years, and a fair few of the problem ones are a direct result of Brexit.

However, it is brilliant that the FULL £350m pw AND MORE is going to be allocated to the NHS. ........ oops, we are going to increase taxation to provide the funds !

I ask you ! You couldn’t make it up, not even with a new season of “Yes Minister”

Unfortunately, it’s no joke.

Keep your hair on Don.

The examples you provide of substantive changes don't amount to a hill of beans....currency fluctuations are nothing new....maybe you remember the pounds slide prior to us leaving the ERM.

I agree with you that many things i.e. complications have as you say come to light since the referendum. Things which the Remain group could have used in their campaign but they were very complacent and couldnt be arsed as they couldn't imagine defeat.

But as the great man said ...and the world turns.

Frank Yang posted:

Most of the people who voted in favor of Brexit are low skilled ones, 

Thanks Frank for your contribution, that's not condesending at all. You could have also added unemployed and borderline iliterate to round off the insult.

As an outsider, just who DID vote for Brexit?  Can it be divided among socioeconomic lines?

docmark posted:

As an outsider, just who DID vote for Brexit?  Can it be divided among socioeconomic lines?

There’s actually quite a lot of information on that, from a fairly large survey carried out on the day of the vote after people had voted.

And yes, there are some clear divides. At its most basic, Brexit was essentially forced on the young by the old (a majority of under 45s voted remain, with 60% of over 65s voting leave).

Other divides include: remain won among those with degrees or higher degrees, those in work and those with mortgages. Leave won among the retired, the unemployed and those who own their own homes outright. Whites narrowly favoured leave, as did those calling themselves christian. A majority of those who generally support right-wing parties (Conservative, UKIP) (note - these people largely match the demographics on age mentioned above) voted leave, a majority those who support left-wing parties (Labour, Lib Dem, Green etc) voted remain. Possibly most tellingly in terms of attitudes over the last two years, a large majority of remainers thought that the wrong result would be disastrous, while most leavers thought a wrong result would be a PITA but no big deal (paraphrasing!).

I don’t think the website is the kind of commercial site which would break forum rules, so here’s a link to the breakdown. It makes interesting reading. Click here.

Dave***t posted:

Resurrection posted:

Much more peaceful and sensible here in Bologna. What is it with you Brits?

Ah yes Bologna, ‘red Bologna’, the renowned communist-leaning city. Last time I was there, a student group were holding a series of public speeches/debates in the main square. It was quite encouraging after the far right activity I’d seen in the days prior. I’d love to go back and be able to see the spectacular painting of Satan which I believe is in the cathedral.

Odd place for you to choose for a holiday, I’m surprised you didn’t burst into flames upon setting foot within its borders.

Still, glad you’re finding it sensible in comparison with these riven islands, in thrall to far right maniacs as they are.

Buongiorno Regazzi!

How did I choose Bologna, eh? Well, we have done Florence several times and like the size and obviously the culture and art of the city. We have also done Sorrento and the Amalfi Coast, Sicily and Rome. I was reading an article on Bologna and just thought that it had the right credentials for a visit, then I checked my Avios and found I could get flights from Heathrow and then decided to upgrade to Club Class (I have hundreds of thousands of Avios). So here we are.

i leave the cultural aspect to be organised by my wife as I am a thick Brexiteer. I just set the scene and pay,  the dosh and enjoy. 

Not necessarily accurate, Simon. For example both Labour and Conservative voters were not evenly split as you say - Cons maybe, but nearly 2/3 of Labour voters voted remain.

And big cities did not necessarily vote remain - my native 2nd city narrowly went leave.

One of the most telling splits IMO was that those who were dissatisfied with the state of the country in general and pessimistic about the future (ie attitudes about whether children would have better lives than their parents and that sort of thing) tended to vote leave. This seems to substantiate eg the notion that the vote was a scapegoat for those who felt disadvantaged or left behind by recent decades of political history.

Well I deleted the post.. because it gets too involved.. the split was more even geographically as opposed to population in 2015  ... and the UKIP vote at 95% leave has largely dissipated and in poorer areas this has moved to labour, and UKIP tended to be stronger in less affluent areas .. so the 2015 view has to be mapped forward if it’s in any way to calibrated and meaningful now. The Yougov site has some interesting stats... but this is the stuff that will keep staticians and sociology trend analysts and demographers  happy for many years.... but the point I did make that I will restate is that it showed how out of  kilter London (a very pro remain) centre was out of kilter with the much of England.. possibly of some concern

Dave***t posted:

............................

And yes, there are some clear divides. At its most basic, Brexit was essentially forced on the young by the old (a majority of under 45s voted remain, with 60% of over 65s voting leave). 

I look at it another way,  if the x2 younger age groups had bothered their anal glands to get out & vote & to vote in the way the post referendum surveys suggests ,  the referendum result would have been to remain.   So no I don't agree the older voters 'forced' brexit on the young, more like their own short fall in civil responsibility did that.   

Well said Mike, and even those who could be bothered to vote 29% of 18 to 25 years voted leave... ie one person in every three and a half... that’s a sizeable minority where I come from for such a narrow focus... the over 65s voted 64% to leave... so that is only just over double what the 18 to 25s voted...   to me that is not a major coercive push.

Just thinking as you Remainers, dissect, reflect and regurgitate the great history of Brexit, that as I sit on the balcony of my apartment here in Bologna I was being questioned about my cultural credentials when our late lamented colleague cane to mind who was so rudely expelled from this forum, yes I mean gerronwithit. His avatar came from l’Uffizi in Florence. Now there was Avery cultured chap, gerronwithit.i believe he is still doing a sterling job mauling left wingers elsewhere. 

So a 2 to 1 split is 'not a major coercive push', whereas a narrow 52/48 is a 'massive victory'. I accept those are not your words, but really!

I wouldn’t call a 52/48 a massive victory, would you really class it as that? It’s a democratic majority, but I don’t think you can call it a massive victory or landslide Nick whether you agree with the result or not.

Mike-B posted:

 

I look at it another way,  if the x2 younger age groups had bothered their anal glands to get out & vote & to vote in the way the post referendum surveys suggests ,  the referendum result would have been to remain.   So no I don't agree the older voters 'forced' brexit on the young, more like their own short fall in civil responsibility did that.   

However, with an estimated four million eligible UK voters not present on the electoral register, half of which caused since 2010 with Tory austerity measures resulting in a rampant rise in homelessness, most of these are younger adults more demographically likely to vote Remain, plus a couple of million 16 and 17 year olds who were deliberately denied the vote which helped very unfairly rig the referendum vote for Leave favour.

There is no vote for those young socially dis-enfranchised  ...by Tory political policy  : (

Resurrection posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

Are Airbus and BMW simply pushing the Gov towards a "Deal", ie ensuring we don't wind up with Ressurection's idealistic "No deal and sod them" outcome, for which he assures us that 17.4m of our electorate voted ?

Or are they going to pull out of the UK anyway, and Brexit is just an excuse ?

I suspect the various actors were awaiting the outcome of this week’s vote before playing their hands. There us every chance that our government will simply capitulate as usual and invite  Airbus and BMW to move their activities wherever they want, JLR are moving Discovery production  to Slovakia alongside quite a few either car companies. As usual, our government would probably roll over and play dead.

Doesn’t really matter whether we are in or out of the EU, defending our manufacturing, agricultural, fishing, energy production, water supplies etc is the last thing on our politicians’ minds as these resources have all been asset stripped at a great rate of knots since we joined the EU. Drinking water here helps fund the Ontario Teachers pension fund.. EIectricity funds German and French companies. Spanish fishing boats legitimately plunder our seas. 

Just like the double whammy all of you who commute by train are forced to pay the highest fares anywhere because you have to pay the franchise fee or tax to the government before you actually pay for running the actual service. 

This country has been bled white on the altar of alleged free trade, open borders and fee movement of people and business. All of which has hapoened to preserve our ‘credentials’ ’ within the EU.

Oh, am just off to Italy on holiday tomorrow. 

Just occasionally, Resurrection, your posts strike a chord with me - against the grain of the majority, it has to be said - but it is heartening that you do offer up some insights other than the "You lost, suck it up" mentality of some other Brexiters on here.

I don't disagree with a lot of what you say - asset stripping leaves us now in a perilous situation when the country is desperately in need of as many levers to manage the economy as possible - currently we're at the mercy of overseas corporations - and in many cases, overseas governments where governments have financial interests in those corporations - witness Airbus.

I don't agree however that "this country has been held white on the altar of alleged free trade, open borders and free movement of people and business...to preserve our credentials within the EU". This is a non-sequitur - If that were so, then the economies of similar Northern countries, such as Germany and Holland, would have have been similarly asset stripped. No, this comes down to our own home grown stupidity - in respect of the sorry excuse for an industrial strategy this country has had since Thatcherism - undoubtedly created in my view by the get rich quick short-termism fostered by the City. 

In a similar way that uncontrolled immigration from the EU was a conscious decision by the Blair government, which allowed unfettered access to migration from the then accession countries such as Romania and Hungary, whereas every other advanced economy in the EU used existing treaty mechanisms to control this immigration. I don't agree with much that Claude Juncker says, but he was right to point out that much of the British economy in recent times has been built on cheap labour from Eastern Europe. This uncontrolled immigration destabilised the labour market, and was a significant factor in the perceptions of many working class citizens that the EU had been bad for them. The corporations of course made a fat profit.

Duncan Mann posted:

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In a similar way that uncontrolled immigration from the EU was a conscious decision by the Blair government, which allowed unfettered access to migration from the then accession countries such as Romania and Hungary, whereas every other advanced economy in the EU used existing treaty mechanisms to control this immigration. I don't agree with much that Claude Juncker says, but he was right to point out that much of the British economy in recent times has been built on cheap labour from Eastern Europe. This uncontrolled immigration destabilised the labour market, and was a significant factor in the perceptions of many working class citizens that the EU had been bad for them. The corporations of course made a fat profit.

  

Is the profit fair if it has been made using migrant workers, many of whom may be used to a lower standard of living and expect lower wages, rather than paying a fair wage to home-grown people? (Or by ‘fair’ were you referring to magnitude, as in ‘fairly big’?)

A good post, Duncan.  I suspect many people voted Brexit because of their frustration with policies pursued by successive governments which they felt left them disadvantaged.  I also suspect that many laid the blame for this, wrongly, at the door of EU membership, and were often encouraged to do so by some of our dishonest political leaders.

We are of course still waiting to see the detail of what the Government expects to do once the UK had left the EU but I get no sense that there is going to be any chance in relation to the issues you highlight. When people complain about the effects of those in the future, I wonder who politicians will blame then?    

MDS posted:

A good post, Duncan.  I suspect many people voted Brexit because of their frustration with policies pursued by successive governments which they felt left them disadvantaged.  I also suspect that many laid the blame for this, wrongly, at the door of EU membership, and were often encouraged to do so by some of our dishonest political leaders.

We are of course still waiting to see the detail of what the Government expects to do once the UK had left the EU but I get no sense that there is going to be any chance in relation to the issues you highlight. When people complain about the effects of those in the future, I wonder who politicians will blame then?    

Politicians are transient - the future politicians will simply blame those that were there at the time (today), of course the fault of parties other than their own. Sadly I have not seen sign of politicans looking to the future and what really is best for the country, as opposed personal or party short term benefit or what they must do either to keep the whip or their ministerial pay, 

Innocent Bystander posted:

ltaylor posted:

If the shoe fits and all that. I see a few hundred losers were out today bleating about a second vote. You lost, time to move on with your lives. My point was actually directed to Resurrection who I feel is wasting his time with people clearly suffering from Brexit Derangement Syndrome. 

No, actually, “we” didn’t lose - it wasn’t a competition, but a referendum on leaving.
...

Actually I think we did loose...  All of us lost, including those who voted for Brexit; and if Brexit goes ahead, we're going to loose even more in the coming years.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

I wouldn’t call a 52/48 a massive victory, would you really class it as that? It’s a democratic majority, but I don’t think you can call it a massive victory or landslide Nick whether you agree with the result or not.

Warning: sarcasm follows!

Yes, of course it's a massive victory; the Brexiteers have told us that, and they definitively know the will of the people, so they must be right!