Are we sleep-walking out of Europe ?

Huge posted:

Resurrection posted:

...i leave the cultural aspect to be organised by my wife as I am a thick Brexiteer...

I don't think anyone's accused you of being thick; actually, quite the reverse.

But then again, if the cap fits...     

Thanks Huge, my wife agrees with you!

MDS posted:

A lot of us Brits also find it incredibly odd, Peder.

???? MDS,...I have understood it.

As I said in previous posts....this is your own internal decisions.
Even if it affects the whole of the European Community.

But here in Sweden,I have not met anyone who understands why you should leave our community,of course there must be someone....but I have not met anyone who understands this.

My mum always said,.. " Alone we are never strong, together we are strong ".

 Well,..as I said before,think it's sad that it'll be.... ◾ we and them again.!

/Peder ????

And no-one I have met in my social life understands why Brexit.

And that includes the ones who voted that way while not wanting to leave, fully expecting a large majority in favour of remaining and  just trying to reduce that majority to make the UK Government sit up and note that a lot of people weren’t happy,

As I’ve said before, given the lack of information, false information, conjecture and deceit at the time of the original referendum, the only sensible thing the government should do is hold a confirmaory referendum saying “this is the deal we’ll get if we do leave - do you definitely want us to proceed? “,  and if there is a majority, then indeed go through with it - but I would be very surprised if the vote in favour would even be as much ad 25%, possibly very much less. (And that of course is why Brexiteers are so terrified of another referendum, as they know what the result would be, and they’d lose on their selfish desires. 

????  INNOCENT BYSTANDER,...It has been so incredibly much writings about this,so it is difficult to keep up with the arguments.

But Innocent Bystander,can you very briefly tell us about the main arguments,why some want to have Brexit and stand outside Europe.

It is as I said,...for us very difficult to understand.

/Peder ???? 

Peder posted:

MDS posted:

A lot of us Brits also find it incredibly odd, Peder.

???? MDS,...I have understood it.

As I said in previous posts....this is your own internal decisions.
Even if it affects the whole of the European Community.

But here in Sweden,I have not met anyone who understands why you should leave our community,of course there must be someone....but I have not met anyone who understands this.

My mum always said,.. " Alone we are never strong, together we are strong ".

 Well,..as I said before,think it's sad that it'll be.... ◾ we and them again.!

/Peder ????

You have a wise mum, Peder.

Peder posted:

????  INNOCENT BYSTANDER,...It has been so incredibly much writings about this,so it is difficult to keep up with the arguments.

But Innocent Bystander,can you very briefly tell us about the main arguments,why some want to have Brexit and stand outside Europe.

It is as I said,...for us very difficult to understand.

/Peder ???? 

I don’t think I am a good person to answer that, as I do not understand it myself. There are a few posts by people supporting Brexit that give the reasons they feel it is right, though it can take some effort to find them between the many just repeating that the referendum said leave so we must, or getting into right wing vs left wing politics etc.

My synopsis is that those who really want to leave believe i) Britain will be better off economically out of the EU, primarily because we will save the cost of our membership. ii) Britain will have full control of its borders, only allowing immigration that is assessed as beneficial to the country. iii) Britain will have full control over its entire judiciary system, and not have judgements overturned by judges living in a different society. iv) Britain will have freedom to make exactly the laws it wants. v) They do not like or trust the moves towards a creating a single EU nation, which they perceive as losing the freedom to be ‘British’. vi) People also cite inefficient bureaucracy and corruption within the bureaucratic and political systems (though actually this could be lumped with i) as ultimately it comes out of the cost of membership).

Those who don’t wish to leave see economic benefits of free trade and movement of goods and services, strength in unity in the world, and benefits in movement of people. As well the direct negative consequences of losing those, they also see depressive effect on jobs and the economy through loss of businesses focussing on the EU market if  Britain were to leave.

However, many of those who don’t wish to leave are concerned about some of the issues that form the reasons for leavers to want to leave, maybe particularly ii) especially in relation to health and social care costs, iii), v) and vi). I think there is quite a strong feeling that there needs to be review and reform of some of these, and better effort to improve others. This many argue is best done from within the EU, retaining the benefits of membership and seeking to limit the disbenefits. Many feel that is what Britain should do: remain in but get down to proper negotiations and persuasion as to why change is needed - however I think there will be a proportion who feel they have been wanting that for too long already, and the British Prime Minister’s failure to negotiate successfully in talks before the Brexit campain represented a break point pushing them to vote leave even though they would prefer simply to be in a better Europe.

???? INNOCENT BYSTANDER,...Superb summary, thank you for taking the time to write this ????????.

/Peder???? 

Peder posted:

????  INNOCENT BYSTANDER,...It has been so incredibly much writings about this,so it is difficult to keep up with the arguments.

But Innocent Bystander,can you very briefly tell us about the main arguments,why some want to have Brexit and stand outside Europe.

It is as I said,...for us very difficult to understand.

/Peder ???? 

Why ask IB he loves the EU. Now, as you may gather I am an expert on not loving  the EU. I am old enough to have voted in the original referendum to join the six nation EEC and  was quite content with that. However, the gradual morphing of the EU into a 27 nation superstate was nothing anyone was ever allowed to vote for. Simply for trading I would be with the original concept but cannot accept the gross political, undemocratic institution called the EU. 

Interestingly, on arrival at Bologna airport this week the passport controls were for Schengen and non Schengen citizens, so we are differentiated anyway. 

Resurrection posted:

 

 

Why ask IB he loves the EU. Now, as you may gather I am an expert on not loving  the EU. I am old enough to have voted in the original referendum to join the six nation EEC and  was quite content with that. However, the gradual morphing of the EU into a 27 nation superstate was nothing anyone was ever allowed to vote for. Simply for trading I would be with the original concept but cannot accept the gross political, undemocratic institution called the EU. 

Not something I have ever written, said, thought or felt.

And I recognise and am equally opposed to the gradual morphing - the difference is that I think that overall the EU is beneficial, but the way to benefit is to influence its development from the inside, but with a more persuasive approach then limp David Cameron ever could ever command.. The gradual morphing has a long way to go before it justifies the negative aspects of leaving the EU.

Resurrection posted:

Peder posted:

????  INNOCENT BYSTANDER,...It has been so incredibly much writings about this,so it is difficult to keep up with the arguments.

But Innocent Bystander,can you very briefly tell us about the main arguments,why some want to have Brexit and stand outside Europe.

It is as I said,...for us very difficult to understand.

/Peder ???? 

Why ask IB he loves the EU. Now, as you may gather I am an expert on not loving  the EU. I am old enough to have voted in the original referendum to join the six nation EEC and  was quite content with that. However, the gradual morphing of the EU into a 27 nation superstate was nothing anyone was ever allowed to vote for. Simply for trading I would be with the original concept but cannot accept thegross political, undemocratic institution called the EU. 

Interestingly, on arrival at Bologna airport this week the passport controls were for Schengen and non Schengen citizens, so we are differentiated anyway. 

Several of us have been asking why people on this forum want to leave the EU. You have provided a couple of reasons why YOU want us all to leave, and you have summarised them above, yet again.

Virtually nobody else on this forum who voted to leave has explained their reason for that decision.

IB has summarised quite nicely what some of us Remainers have been told by non-forum Brexiteers why THEY voted to Leave. His summary captures the views of my aquaintences who voted Leave.

Last time I went to Venice, I really should have paid more attention to the seggregation calamity at the airport. I actually was so careless that I didn't notice it !!

As for the gross political undemorcratic institution that you referred to, I initially assumed you were referring to the current UK Brexit Government we (don't) enjoy these days.

naim_nymph posted:

Seriously, for self delusion, arrogance and plain anti-democratic nonsense this just about takes the biscuit!

Don Atkinson posted:

Resurrection posted:

Peder posted:

????  INNOCENT BYSTANDER,...It has been so incredibly much writings about this,so it is difficult to keep up with the arguments.

But Innocent Bystander,can you very briefly tell us about the main arguments,why some want to have Brexit and stand outside Europe.

It is as I said,...for us very difficult to understand.

/Peder ???? 

Why ask IB he loves the EU. Now, as you may gather I am an expert on not loving  the EU. I am old enough to have voted in the original referendum to join the six nation EEC and  was quite content with that. However, the gradual morphing of the EU into a 27 nation superstate was nothing anyone was ever allowed to vote for. Simply for trading I would be with the original concept but cannot accept thegross political, undemocratic institution called the EU. 

Interestingly, on arrival at Bologna airport this week the passport controls were for Schengen and non Schengen citizens, so we are differentiated anyway. 

Several of us have been asking why people on this forum want to leave the EU. You have provided a couple of reasons why YOU want us all to leave, and you have summarised them above, yet again.

Virtually nobody else on this forum who voted to leave has explained their reason for that decision.

IB has summarised quite nicely what some of us Remainers have been told by non-forum Brexiteers why THEY voted to Leave. His summary captures the views of my aquaintences who voted Leave.

Last time I went to Venice, I really should have paid more attention to the seggregation calamity at the airport. I actually was so careless that I didn't notice it !!

As for the gross political undemorcratic institution that you referred to, I initially assumed you were referring to the current UK Brexit Government we (don't) enjoy these days.

I guess because it is me you think that everyone else has to itemise their reasons for voting Brexit as my own views are singular and need much more reinforcement. Those that support my views will not necessarily be so tolerant and considerate in detailing their reasons for voting Brexit as rightly they don’t need to - they won!

For all the argumentation put up by yourself, ably so I have to add, there is nothing that will change my own and I suspect at least 17.4 million others to change their mind. That does not, of course, mean that you need to reflect on your own decision. I respect that as you should respect those of the Brexiteers. Nothing will change.

Resurrection posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

Resurrection posted:

Peder posted:

????  INNOCENT BYSTANDER,...It has been so incredibly much writings about this,so it is difficult to keep up with the arguments.

But Innocent Bystander,can you very briefly tell us about the main arguments,why some want to have Brexit and stand outside Europe.

It is as I said,...for us very difficult to understand.

/Peder ???? 

Why ask IB he loves the EU. Now, as you may gather I am an expert on not loving  the EU. I am old enough to have voted in the original referendum to join the six nation EEC and  was quite content with that. However, the gradual morphing of the EU into a 27 nation superstate was nothing anyone was ever allowed to vote for. Simply for trading I would be with the original concept but cannot accept thegross political, undemocratic institution called the EU. 

Interestingly, on arrival at Bologna airport this week the passport controls were for Schengen and non Schengen citizens, so we are differentiated anyway. 

Several of us have been asking why people on this forum want to leave the EU. You have provided a couple of reasons why YOU want us all to leave, and you have summarised them above, yet again.

Virtually nobody else on this forum who voted to leave has explained their reason for that decision.

IB has summarised quite nicely what some of us Remainers have been told by non-forum Brexiteers why THEY voted to Leave. His summary captures the views of my aquaintences who voted Leave.

Last time I went to Venice, I really should have paid more attention to the seggregation calamity at the airport. I actually was so careless that I didn't notice it !!

As for the gross political undemorcratic institution that you referred to, I initially assumed you were referring to the current UK Brexit Government we (don't) enjoy these days.

I guess because it is me you think that everyone else has to itemise their reasons for voting Brexit as my own views are singular and need much more reinforcement. Those that support my views will not necessarily be so tolerant and considerate in detailing their reasons for voting Brexit as rightly they don’t need to - they won!

For all the argumentation put up by yourself, ably so I have to add, there is nothing that will change my own and I suspect at least 17.4 million others to change their mind. That does not, of course, mean that you need to reflect on your own decision. I respect that as you should respect those of the Brexiteers. Nothing will change.

Several times I have invited people in this thread to outline their reasons for voting Leave. Very few reasons have been forthcoming. I was expecting to be enlightened and given confidence that the future would be a wonderful new life for all 70 million of us here in the UK. Perhaps you can understand my disappointment at the current lack of enlightenment in this thread ?

Don Atkinson posted:

Resurrection posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

Resurrection posted:

Peder posted:

????  INNOCENT BYSTANDER,...It has been so incredibly much writings about this,so it is difficult to keep up with the arguments.

But Innocent Bystander,can you very briefly tell us about the main arguments,why some want to have Brexit and stand outside Europe.

It is as I said,...for us very difficult to understand.

/Peder ???? 

Why ask IB he loves the EU. Now, as you may gather I am an expert on not loving  the EU. I am old enough to have voted in the original referendum to join the six nation EEC and  was quite content with that. However, the gradual morphing of the EU into a 27 nation superstate was nothing anyone was ever allowed to vote for. Simply for trading I would be with the original concept but cannot accept thegross political, undemocratic institution called the EU. 

Interestingly, on arrival at Bologna airport this week the passport controls were for Schengen and non Schengen citizens, so we are differentiated anyway. 

Several of us have been asking why people on this forum want to leave the EU. You have provided a couple of reasons why YOU want us all to leave, and you have summarised them above, yet again.

Virtually nobody else on this forum who voted to leave has explained their reason for that decision.

IB has summarised quite nicely what some of us Remainers have been told by non-forum Brexiteers why THEY voted to Leave. His summary captures the views of my aquaintences who voted Leave.

Last time I went to Venice, I really should have paid more attention to the seggregation calamity at the airport. I actually was so careless that I didn't notice it !!

As for the gross political undemorcratic institution that you referred to, I initially assumed you were referring to the current UK Brexit Government we (don't) enjoy these days.

I guess because it is me you think that everyone else has to itemise their reasons for voting Brexit as my own views are singular and need much more reinforcement. Those that support my views will not necessarily be so tolerant and considerate in detailing their reasons for voting Brexit as rightly they don’t need to - they won!

For all the argumentation put up by yourself, ably so I have to add, there is nothing that will change my own and I suspect at least 17.4 million others to change their mind. That does not, of course, mean that you need to reflect on your own decision. I respect that as you should respect those of the Brexiteers. Nothing will change.

Several times I have invited people in this thread to outline their reasons for voting Leave. Very few reasons have been forthcoming. I was expecting to be enlightened and given confidence that the future would be a wonderful new life for all 70 million of us here in the UK. Perhaps you can understand my disappointment at the current lack of enlightenment in this thread ?

 Jésus Christus, 70 million! I can’t breathe, I am suffocating. Now I. Know why I voted Brexit.  

Don,

I am not aware of any of the supporters of Brexit on the forum arguing that its a panacea for all of our society's ills.

I have advanced my arguments for voting Leave on here in the past but they were met with a kind of mass hysteria and I feared for the health of some members as they were seized by apoplexy.

Ray

 they won!

Yes, we know you won. Calm down now, dear... it's ok - a new Britain is coming!

Resurrection posted:

 Jésus Christus, 70 million! I can’t breathe, I am suffocating. Now I. Know why I voted Brexit.  

 Jésus Christus, 70 million! I can’t breathe, I am suffocating. Now I. Know why - I voted Brexit.

Fixed that for you  

What would he really do? No matter what he would still  be screwed! 

Given the difficulty we have in organising the laying of a 2 mile long piece of tarmac. It’s taken nearly 20 years. Shouldn’t the Brixitears really be worried that Brexit won’t actually happen in their lifetime.

Perhaps we should follow the tried and tested route whenever we need anything complicated and costly building. Get foreign expertise and financing.

How about a Japanese organised Brexit, financed by the Chinese.

Resurrection posted:

naim_nymph posted:

Seriously, for self delusion, arrogance and plain anti-democratic nonsense this just about takes the biscuit!

Absolutely!

Whatever your views on Brexshit, the Brexit Tory Government is certainly self delusional, arrogant, plain anti-democratic, nonsensical, and yes; the boneheaded Brexit Tory ministers really do take the biscuit. Good of you to point this out!

Nice we can agree about something : )

Debs

Resurrection posted:

naim_nymph posted:

Seriously, for self delusion, arrogance and plain anti-democratic nonsense this just about takes the biscuit!

Codswallop!

This is proposing a vote on the deal - not even the confirmatory vote of which I have pointed out is the sensible, wise, logical and democratic thing to do (rather than repeat, I refer you to my post timed at 14:42 on 20th June). 

How can a vote on the deal be undemocratic? To the public: “OK you said Brexit, no-one was aware of the terms, we, your government, think this is a good deal, do you agree that we Brexit on these terms?”

To call this undemocratic, dillusional or nonsense is to reveal how entrenched you are in pursuing only what YOU want, despite your repeated referral to the majority in the 2016 referendum, and how much you are terrified that the reality of a referendum is likely to be overwhelmingly against a bad deal, just as it would be against leaving if a confirmatory referendum were to be undertaken.

You call it arrogance - perhaps you should look to your own posts...

Quite a few of us appear to consider that democracy is being trampled under foot by the fervent Brexiteers. 

My suggestion timed at 19:00 on 25/05/2018 seems to have slipped RR’s attention.

Don Atkinson posted:

Quite a few of us appear to consider that democracy is being trampled under foot by the fervent Brexiteers.

Not this Remainer.

We are leaving. It will be a shambles. Many Brits will suffer, the poor disproportionately so.

We will continue to have elections though. Taking the long view, we will eventually elect a group of political representatives who are able to make things better for us, such as rejoining the EU in, say, 30 years.

That's democracy for me. Bleak but true.

C.

BBC News a few minutes ago..........MoD needs an additional £14bn pa if the UK is to remain at the Top Table.

Given last week's announcement of £20bn pa for the NHS I am beginning to see why RR is so keen to get his hands on the £18bn pa we currently contribute to Junker's Charity.............perhaps we should leave "Double Quick" in order to save "double" the promised £18bn pa !

..........or is there some sort of glitch in my thinking ????