Are we sleep-walking out of Europe ?

 they won!

Yes, we know you won. Calm down now, dear... it's ok - a new Britain is coming!

Resurrection posted:

 Jésus Christus, 70 million! I can’t breathe, I am suffocating. Now I. Know why I voted Brexit.  

 Jésus Christus, 70 million! I can’t breathe, I am suffocating. Now I. Know why - I voted Brexit.

Fixed that for you  

What would he really do? No matter what he would still  be screwed! 

Given the difficulty we have in organising the laying of a 2 mile long piece of tarmac. It’s taken nearly 20 years. Shouldn’t the Brixitears really be worried that Brexit won’t actually happen in their lifetime.

Perhaps we should follow the tried and tested route whenever we need anything complicated and costly building. Get foreign expertise and financing.

How about a Japanese organised Brexit, financed by the Chinese.

Resurrection posted:

naim_nymph posted:

Seriously, for self delusion, arrogance and plain anti-democratic nonsense this just about takes the biscuit!

Absolutely!

Whatever your views on Brexshit, the Brexit Tory Government is certainly self delusional, arrogant, plain anti-democratic, nonsensical, and yes; the boneheaded Brexit Tory ministers really do take the biscuit. Good of you to point this out!

Nice we can agree about something : )

Debs

Resurrection posted:

naim_nymph posted:

Seriously, for self delusion, arrogance and plain anti-democratic nonsense this just about takes the biscuit!

Codswallop!

This is proposing a vote on the deal - not even the confirmatory vote of which I have pointed out is the sensible, wise, logical and democratic thing to do (rather than repeat, I refer you to my post timed at 14:42 on 20th June). 

How can a vote on the deal be undemocratic? To the public: “OK you said Brexit, no-one was aware of the terms, we, your government, think this is a good deal, do you agree that we Brexit on these terms?”

To call this undemocratic, dillusional or nonsense is to reveal how entrenched you are in pursuing only what YOU want, despite your repeated referral to the majority in the 2016 referendum, and how much you are terrified that the reality of a referendum is likely to be overwhelmingly against a bad deal, just as it would be against leaving if a confirmatory referendum were to be undertaken.

You call it arrogance - perhaps you should look to your own posts...

Quite a few of us appear to consider that democracy is being trampled under foot by the fervent Brexiteers. 

My suggestion timed at 19:00 on 25/05/2018 seems to have slipped RR’s attention.

Don Atkinson posted:

Quite a few of us appear to consider that democracy is being trampled under foot by the fervent Brexiteers.

Not this Remainer.

We are leaving. It will be a shambles. Many Brits will suffer, the poor disproportionately so.

We will continue to have elections though. Taking the long view, we will eventually elect a group of political representatives who are able to make things better for us, such as rejoining the EU in, say, 30 years.

That's democracy for me. Bleak but true.

C.

BBC News a few minutes ago..........MoD needs an additional £14bn pa if the UK is to remain at the Top Table.

Given last week's announcement of £20bn pa for the NHS I am beginning to see why RR is so keen to get his hands on the £18bn pa we currently contribute to Junker's Charity.............perhaps we should leave "Double Quick" in order to save "double" the promised £18bn pa !

..........or is there some sort of glitch in my thinking ????

fatcat posted:

Given the difficulty we have in organising the laying of a 2 mile long piece of tarmac. It’s taken nearly 20 years. Shouldn’t the Brixitears really be worried that Brexit won’t actually happen in their lifetime.

Perhaps we should follow the tried and tested route whenever we need anything complicated and costly building. Get foreign expertise and financing.

How about a Japanese organised Brexit, financed by the Chinese.

Yep! As my French teacher kind of put it. When I look up and down the ranks of politicians of all hues in Parliament they remind me of a fish shop with all these dead cod and their glassy eyes lying on the marble slabs. 

Another of his little homilies if he felt you were not progressing was to shout at you, “Sonny, I am going to take you outside and rub you up and down the wall until there is nothing bar bones!” He had been a Commando in WWII so it was always best not to bait him. 

He certainly could have helped with Brexit as he had the language skills in all senses of the words. 

Christopher_M posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

Quite a few of us appear to consider that democracy is being trampled under foot by the fervent Brexiteers.

Not this Remainer.

We are leaving. It will be a shambles. Many Brits will suffer, the poor disproportionately so.

We will continue to have elections though. Taking the long view, we will eventually elect a group of political representatives who are able to make things better for us, such as rejoining the EU in, say, 30 years.

That's democracy for me. Bleak but true.

C.

So having a specific referendum on the "final deal" would be un-democratic ?

Or giving our representatives a free vote in Parliament on the "final deal" would be un-democratic - assuming that vote was to "re-negotiate" v "leave" (as opposed to "remain v leave"

I recognise that many MPs consider they are upholding the principles of democracy, even though they know the outcome might be the equivalent of a Beach-Head suicide !

Innocent Bystander posted:

Resurrection posted:

naim_nymph posted:

Seriously, for self delusion, arrogance and plain anti-democratic nonsense this just about takes the biscuit!

Codswallop!

This is proposing a vote on the deal - not even the confirmatory vote of which I have pointed out is the sensible, wise, logical and democratic thing to do (rather than repeat, I refer you to my post timed at 14:42 on 20th June). 

How can a vote on the deal be undemocratic? To the public: “OK you said Brexit, no-one was aware of the terms, we, your government, think this is a good deal, do you agree that we Brexit on these terms?”

To call this undemocratic, dillusional or nonsense is to reveal how entrenched you are in pursuing only what YOU want, despite your repeated referral to the majority in the 2016 referendum, and how much you are terrified that the reality of a referendum is likely to be overwhelmingly against a bad deal, just as it would be against leaving if a confirmatory referendum were to be undertaken.

You call it arrogance - perhaps you should look to your own posts...

 

IB, I’ll have you know I am very proud of my posts. Succinct, accurate, pithy and to the point. Now, what were you saying above? ????

Don Atkinson posted:

Christopher_M posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

Quite a few of us appear to consider that democracy is being trampled under foot by the fervent Brexiteers.

Not this Remainer.

We are leaving. It will be a shambles. Many Brits will suffer, the poor disproportionately so.

We will continue to have elections though. Taking the long view, we will eventually elect a group of political representatives who are able to make things better for us, such as rejoining the EU in, say, 30 years.

That's democracy for me. Bleak but true.

C.

So having a specific referendum on the "final deal" would be un-democratic ?

Or giving our representatives a free vote in Parliament on the "final deal" would be un-democratic - assuming that vote was to "re-negotiate" v "leave" (as opposed to "remain v leave"

I recognise that many MPs consider they are upholding the principles of democracy, even though they know the outcome might be the equivalent of a Beach-Head suicide !

I assume you meant Beachy Head suicide! The costs or savings of Brexit are nebulous to say the least and you should recognise that finance was not top of my own concerns. A primary concern would be the ability of any of our so called leaders to lead us anywhere. Was it forty years that Moses was in the desert? I think we could beat that.

Warning: more sarcasm...

Of course it's undemocratic, as the Brexiteers "know" the will of the people (it was demonstrated over 2 years ago and such a massive majority can't possibly have  changed)...  They "know" that the majority of the British people want to ensure we don't have another referendum, so forcing another one on on them is undemocratic.

Don Atkinson posted:

BBC News a few minutes ago..........MoD needs an additional £14bn pa if the UK is to remain at the Top Table.

Given last week's announcement of £20bn pa for the NHS I am beginning to see why RR is so keen to get his hands on the £18bn pa we currently contribute to Junker's Charity.............perhaps we should leave "Double Quick" in order to save "double" the promised £18bn pa !

..........or is there some sort of glitch in my thinking ????

Two things, Don - it would be sensible if other European nations spent more on our common defence interests - Donald Trump is (for once) right to state that European nations need to take their defence commitment in the context of NATO more seriously, particularly the Germans, who can well afford it. I appreciate that the Germans have baggage that might affect their thinking in this regard, but times and circumstances change.

We do need to consider just what we're investing in, in terms of defence. No point in investing predominantly in Cold War hardware when Putin and Xi are fighting asymmetric warfare via cyber warfare, IP theft and media propaganda. The UK in my view would be better in taking a lead role in the latter areas, and working with NATO allies on the former. However, such a collaborative approach seems to be going against the grain of our self inflicted attempts to see ourselves in splendid isolation from the EU, who are (other than NATO) the only credible means currently of putting together a workable defence strategy for Europe as a whole. We do have form working with the French, for many years, so there is hope in this regard.

Second, we can only afford to invest in our defence if we have the Treasury to pay for it, and as a trading nation, we have traditionally generated that wealth through exports. If BJ's approach to business is anything to go by, it looks like we'll lose a fair chunk of our corporate tax revenues through loss of industry, and our finance industries are going to be dealt a body blow by Brexit, as service industries are not going to be protected even in the context of a soft Brexit.

Resurrection posted:

I assume you meant Beachy Head suicide! The costs or savings of Brexit are nebulous to say the least and you should recognise that finance was not top of my own concerns. A primary concern would be the ability of any of our so called leaders to lead us anywhere. Was it forty years that Moses was in the desert? I think we could beat that.

I agree: it looks as though it's going to take at least 40 years to sort out the mess being caused by a rushed Brexit, be driven on so hard by the fervent Brexiteers!

Resurrection posted:

IB, I’ll have you know I am very proud of my posts. Succinct, accurate, pithy and to the point. Now, what were you saying above? ????

Says the man who seems more interested in informing the world about his gastronomic forays around the Scottish Highlands and Italy... entertaining perhaps, but not exactly on topic... 

Don Atkinson posted:

BBC News a few minutes ago..........MoD needs an additional £14bn pa if the UK is to remain at the Top Table.   ..........or is there some sort of glitch in my thinking ????

Forgive this thread dift,  all Don's fault - again.

Thinking is not something that seems to come naturally to UK Gov & MoD especially.   Look at the shambles that is the UK Navy.  The old Invincible Class carriers went out of service as a fully operational aircraft carrier when we retired the Harriers in 2006,  so apart from being a rather posh helicarrier they were effectively decommissioned in 2006.    The new HMS Queen Elizabeth will (should be) semi operational as from this year but not with a full compliment of F35's,  in the meantime she may possibly sail with USMC F-35's & Osprey V-22's,  full operational capability is 'expected' in 2020.    The other carrier Prince of Wales should have FOC by 2023.   Then by that time we will have a carrier airgroup of ‘up to 23’ F-35's.  The full compliment of 36 F35's will be a few years further on.

  I was in Portsmouth last week to finish off the items missed on my previous visit to the Historic Dockyard (highly recommended)    First visit was good because we saw HMS Queen Elizabeth),  last week the harbour tour was very very sad.  Apart from a new fishery protection ship going through commissioning,  the remainder were x3 Type 45 Destroyers all undergoing 'maintenance'.  OK,  but we only have x6 in total - 50% of the fleet under maintenance !!!   Truth be told,  they are undergoing a diesel generator 'upgrade' that includes adding a third generator,   plus RR have to change the underspec's (US) gas turbine heat exchangers.   MoD underspec'd them to save money,  as a result they are unreliable operating in warm waters meaning our commitments in the Gulf & Caribbean are compromised.    

Resurrection posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

Resurrection posted:

naim_nymph posted:

Seriously, for self delusion, arrogance and plain anti-democratic nonsense this just about takes the biscuit!

Codswallop!

This is proposing a vote on the deal - not even the confirmatory vote of which I have pointed out is the sensible, wise, logical and democratic thing to do (rather than repeat, I refer you to my post timed at 14:42 on 20th June). 

How can a vote on the deal be undemocratic? To the public: “OK you said Brexit, no-one was aware of the terms, we, your government, think this is a good deal, do you agree that we Brexit on these terms?”

To call this undemocratic, dillusional or nonsense is to reveal how entrenched you are in pursuing only what YOU want, despite your repeated referral to the majority in the 2016 referendum, and how much you are terrified that the reality of a referendum is likely to be overwhelmingly against a bad deal, just as it would be against leaving if a confirmatory referendum were to be undertaken.

You call it arrogance - perhaps you should look to your own posts...

 

IB, I’ll have you know I am very proud of my posts. Succinct, accurate, pithy and to the point. Now, what were you saying above? ????

Codswallop is what I said.

Point made, and clear to all reading this forum (of course, unclear to anyone not reading, such as when they don’t wish to admit the truth...)

Resurrection posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

Christopher_M posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

Quite a few of us appear to consider that democracy is being trampled under foot by the fervent Brexiteers.

Not this Remainer.

We are leaving. It will be a shambles. Many Brits will suffer, the poor disproportionately so.

We will continue to have elections though. Taking the long view, we will eventually elect a group of political representatives who are able to make things better for us, such as rejoining the EU in, say, 30 years.

That's democracy for me. Bleak but true.

C.

So having a specific referendum on the "final deal" would be un-democratic ?

Or giving our representatives a free vote in Parliament on the "final deal" would be un-democratic - assuming that vote was to "re-negotiate" v "leave" (as opposed to "remain v leave"

I recognise that many MPs consider they are upholding the principles of democracy, even though they know the outcome might be the equivalent of a Beach-Head suicide !

I assume you meant Beachy Head suicide!Yes. well spotted. The costs or savings of Brexit are nebulous to say the leastnot true. Whilst the precise costs might be difficult to pin down, it is now clear that they will be massive. The savings, on the other hand will be almost negligable. We don't need precise figures under these circumstances.  and you should recognise that finance was not top of my own concerns. Yes, I think we established that some while back, once you realised that finance wasn't a pro-Brexit strong point. BTW, I was responding to Chris, so didn't really feel it necessary to fully take into account your well established viewpoint. A primary concern would be the ability of any of our so called leaders to lead us anywhere. Was it forty years that Moses was in the desert? I think we could beat that.

Duncan Mann posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

BBC News a few minutes ago..........MoD needs an additional £14bn pa if the UK is to remain at the Top Table.

Given last week's announcement of £20bn pa for the NHS I am beginning to see why RR is so keen to get his hands on the £18bn pa we currently contribute to Junker's Charity.............perhaps we should leave "Double Quick" in order to save "double" the promised £18bn pa !

..........or is there some sort of glitch in my thinking ????

Two things, Don - it would be sensible if other European nations spent more on our common defence interests - Donald Trump is (for once) right to state that European nations need to take their defence commitment in the context of NATO more seriously, particularly the Germans, who can well afford it. I appreciate that the Germans have baggage that might affect their thinking in this regard, but times and circumstances change.

We do need to consider just what we're investing in, in terms of defence. No point in investing predominantly in Cold War hardware when Putin and Xi are fighting asymmetric warfare via cyber warfare, IP theft and media propaganda. The UK in my view would be better in taking a lead role in the latter areas, and working with NATO allies on the former. However, such a collaborative approach seems to be going against the grain of our self inflicted attempts to see ourselves in splendid isolation from the EU, who are (other than NATO) the only credible means currently of putting together a workable defence strategy for Europe as a whole. We do have form working with the French, for many years, so there is hope in this regard.

Second, we can only afford to invest in our defence if we have the Treasury to pay for it, and as a trading nation, we have traditionally generated that wealth through exports. If BJ's approach to business is anything to go by, it looks like we'll lose a fair chunk of our corporate tax revenues through loss of industry, and our finance industries are going to be dealt a body blow by Brexit, as service industries are not going to be protected even in the context of a soft Brexit.

 

 

I think we are agreed Duncan.

My comments were aimed at Brexiteers who think that £18bn pa will solve all our problems.

£18bn being the ficticious figure promulgated by Boris and Co during their campaign as the UK's contribution to the EU.

Does anyone know what her royal highness the queen voted for ? Either way we should all back up her choice.

TOBYJUG posted:

Does anyone know what her royal highness the queen voted for ? Either way we should all back up her choice.

I don’t know if she is allowed to vote ? But I heard roumurs that she favoured leaving ............

Don Atkinson posted:

TOBYJUG posted:

Does anyone know what her royal highness the queen voted for ? Either way we should all back up her choice.

I don’t know if she is allowed to vote ? But I heard roumurs that she favoured leaving ............

The Queen is allowed to vote but does not as she has to be seen as neutral in matters of this type.

Duncan Mann posted:

Resurrection posted:

IB, I’ll have you know I am very proud of my posts. Succinct, accurate, pithy and to the point. Now, what were you saying above? ????

Says the man who seems more interested in informing the world about his gastronomic forays around the Scottish Highlands and Italy... entertaining perhaps, but not exactly on topic... 

Exactly! Great fun and giving you REmainers  some much needed light entertainment. ????