Are we sleep-walking out of Europe ?

TOBYJUG posted:

Theresa May does have lovely slender ankles

So do I...
but I don't display mine on public television!  

TOBYJUG posted:

Theresa May does have lovely slender ankles

Blimey, it'll be the eyes of Caligula and the mouth of Marilyn Monroe next.

Christopher_M posted:

Neither would be undemocratic. These are uncharted waters.

Meanwhile I leave MPs to it and get on with my life, only attempting 'to control the controllables'.

Indeed these are uncharted waters - not least the unprecedented breakdown in collective cabinet responsibility, which doesn't augur well for the future. We are also in the midst of unprecedented challenges to our democracy, given the advent of the digital dissemination of "news" - though presumably as a nation we are not alone in this - but sufficiently alarming for the Electoral Commission to recommend urgent legislative changes. From the Guardian:

The Electoral Commission has called for urgent reforms to electoral law after a series of online political campaign scandals, acknowledging concerns that British democracy “may be under threat”.

Following a series of revelations involving the likes of Cambridge Analytica, the elections regulator has asked Westminster and the devolved governments to change the law in order to combat misinformation, misuse of personal data and overseas interference in elections.

Among other recommendations, the Electoral Commission has called for:

• A change in the law to require all digital political campaign material to state who paid for it, bringing online adverts in line with physical leaflets and adverts.
• New legislation to make it clear that spending in UK elections and referendums by foreign organisations and individuals is not allowed.
• An increase in the maximum fine, currently £20,000 per offence, that the Electoral Commission can impose on organisations and individuals who break the rules.
• Tougher requirements for political campaigns to declare their spending soon after or during a campaign, rather than months later.
• A requirement for all campaigners to provide more detailed paperwork on how they spent money online.

Presumably, the horse has bolted in respect of the lies and distortions disseminated by the likes of Aaron Banks' Leave.Eu organisation, given that legislation cannot be applied retrospectively...

Would be interesting to know how other countries have tackled these issues?

Nothing new here.

It wasn't that long ago we had  phoney Tony's infamous 'clear and undeniable threat to the UK' in relation to Iraq's chemical weapons capabilities. Erm it turns out they had none.

At least Blair paid the price with his job.

thebigfredc posted:

Nothing new here.

It wasn't that long ago we had  phoney Tony's infamous 'clear and undeniable threat to the UK' in relation to Iraq's chemical weapons capabilities. Erm it turns out they had none.

At least Blair paid the price with his job.

Er. As I remember it, Blair voluntarily stood down and handed the reins to Brown. It was the latter that lost the election.

MDS posted:

thebigfredc posted:

Nothing new here.

It wasn't that long ago we had  phoney Tony's infamous 'clear and undeniable threat to the UK' in relation to Iraq's chemical weapons capabilities. Erm it turns out they had none.

At least Blair paid the price with his job.

Er. As I remember it, Blair voluntarily stood down and handed the reins to Brown. It was the latter that lost the election.

  The '97 onwards Labour government which had been busy reforming things was pretty much paralysed after iraq-gate and this lead to Labour's unpopularity.

I agree that there was a lot of disenchantment with Blair as a consequent for the Iraq war but I think Brown managed to keep his distance from that (though he had enough flaws of his own) and I don't remember Iraq being a significant factor at the 2010 general election. 

Mike-B posted:

I was in Portsmouth last week to finish off the items missed on my previous visit to the Historic Dockyard (highly recommended)    ....... remainder were x3 Type 45 Destroyers all undergoing 'maintenance'.  OK,  but we only have x6 in total - 50% of the fleet under maintenance !!!   Truth be told,  they are undergoing a diesel generator 'upgrade' that includes adding a third generator......

I enjoyed Private Eye's take on this, a year or so ago. All six destroyers had to return immediately and simulaneously for generator upgrade. They would be powered from shore in Portsmouth. Trouble being, only five spare mains plugs in Pompey dockyard.

Now back to the thread.

Christopher_M posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

Christopher_M posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

Quite a few of us appear to consider that democracy is being trampled under foot by the fervent Brexiteers.

Not this Remainer.

We are leaving. It will be a shambles. Many Brits will suffer, the poor disproportionately so.

We will continue to have elections though. Taking the long view, we will eventually elect a group of political representatives who are able to make things better for us, such as rejoining the EU in, say, 30 years.

That's democracy for me. Bleak but true.

C.

So having a specific referendum on the "final deal" would be un-democratic ?

Or giving our representatives a free vote in Parliament on the "final deal" would be un-democratic - assuming that vote was to "re-negotiate" v "leave" (as opposed to "remain v leave"

Neither would be undemocratic. These are uncharted waters.

Meanwhile I leave MPs to it and get on with my life, only attempting 'to control the controllables'.

Two years ago I was asked for my views re benefits of leave v remain wrt EASA. I was shocked to realise that leaving the EU meant leaving EASA and about 500 other EU organisations.

I have since continued to evaluate and contribute to this aspect of our future. I am not impressed with our politicians or their civil servants. I hope the other 499 organisations are doing better. I think we will remain a member of EASA but it’s not certain. Our influence is likely to be greatly diminished but our financial contribution is likely to increase.

But, like you I get on with my life. It’s just that I might, in some very minor way, influence a small part of our exit. Who knows ?

Christopher_M posted:

Mike-B posted:

I was in Portsmouth last week to finish off the items missed on my previous visit to the Historic Dockyard (highly recommended)    ....... remainder were x3 Type 45 Destroyers all undergoing 'maintenance'.  OK,  but we only have x6 in total - 50% of the fleet under maintenance !!!   Truth be told,  they are undergoing a diesel generator 'upgrade' that includes adding a third generator......

I enjoyed Private Eye's take on this, a year or so ago. All six destroyers had to return immediately and simulaneously for generator upgrade. They would be powered from shore in Portsmouth. Trouble being, only five spare mains plugs in Pompey dockyard.

Now back to the thread.

Are these re-fitted Type 45 Destroyers being re-assigned to Australia 

Christopher_M posted:

Mike-B posted:

I was in Portsmouth last week to finish off the items missed on my previous visit to the Historic Dockyard (highly recommended)    ....... remainder were x3 Type 45 Destroyers all undergoing 'maintenance'.  OK,  but we only have x6 in total - 50% of the fleet under maintenance !!!   Truth be told,  they are undergoing a diesel generator 'upgrade' that includes adding a third generator......

I enjoyed Private Eye's take on this, a year or so ago. All six destroyers had to return immediately and simulaneously for generator upgrade. They would be powered from shore in Portsmouth. Trouble being, only five spare mains plugs in Pompey dockyard.

Now back to the thread.

Graham’s probably stepped in with one of their Hydras.........

Mike B posted in the "electric car" thread :-

ICE cars are about to become a thing of the past. Various countries have posted the years the ban starts for gas (petrol) & diesel;   China is banning 533 specific models this year,  Norway is the earliest country with a government imposed ban on new ICE car sales starting in 2025,  others are 2030 & 2040.  Some cities are banning diesel cars,  Rome from 2024,  others not far behind.  Auto mnfts are planning to stop ICE development anytime soon,  Volvo will be all electric & hybrid only as from 2019.

I'm guessing that Nissan, Toyota, Honda, BMW and a few other UK-based car assembly plants are trying to decide whether develop the inevitable new production lines here in the UK or on mainland Europe.....?

Don Atkinson posted:

I'm guessing that Nissan, Toyota, Honda, BMW and a few other UK-based car assembly plants are trying to decide whether develop the inevitable new production lines here in the UK or on mainland Europe.....?

Hi Don,  they are indeed,  some have published plans,  web search has it all.   I live close to Oxford & the Mini plant & it was a touch & go thing if Oxford would get the all electric production or would it go to Holland.  Eventually Oxford got the deal,  but since then its been announce it will also get made in China in a partnership with Great Wall Motor.     To me this & the BMW 'warning' of last week  carries a message that Mini can & will move production elsewhere if the post Brexit business climate is not conducive. 

Danny Dyer, appearing on Good Morning Britain, offers a succinct and East-end view on Brexit.  His main target is ex-PM Cameron but the watching Corbyn also looks a bit sheepish. Worth a google.

"I have a cunning plan...."

Update:

Presently 171,084  (and rising)  ...of a 200,000 signature goal [at this time of posting]

Baldrick has excelled himself - and I never knew how much of an orator Tony Robinson could be. 

Baldrick for PM - roll on the next election! 

"Extensive" planning is under way to prepare the health service for a no-deal Brexit scenario, the NHS England chief executive says.

I suppose that if the NHS is preparing (contingency) plans for a "no-deal" Brexit, then I guess all of us would be wise to do the same.

Where do I start ?

Don Atkinson posted:

"Extensive" planning is under way to prepare the health service for a no-deal Brexit scenario, the NHS England chief executive says.

I suppose that if the NHS is preparing (contingency) plans for a "no-deal" Brexit, then I guess all of us would be wise to do the same.

Where do I start ?

In fact, it really would have been most wise if the Government had started planning for a 'no-deal' Brexit immediately after the referendum or, perhaps, even more.

naim_nymph posted:

 

 

"I have a cunning plan...."

 

Update:

Presently 171,084  (and rising)  ...of a 200,000 signature goal [at this time of posting]

Are you not concerned that any such measure would really weaken our negotiating position or is that really the 'cunning plan'?

PeterJ posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

"Extensive" planning is under way to prepare the health service for a no-deal Brexit scenario, the NHS England chief executive says.

I suppose that if the NHS is preparing (contingency) plans for a "no-deal" Brexit, then I guess all of us would be wise to do the same.

Where do I start ?

In fact, it really would have been most wise if the Government had started planning for a 'no-deal' Brexit immediately after the referendum or, perhaps, even more.

Exactly! How much more positive could this have been if instead of fighting like cats in a sack our so called politicians applied themselves to the best needs of our country post Brexit.

PeterJ posted:

naim_nymph posted:

 

 

"I have a cunning plan...."

 

Update:

Presently 171,084  (and rising)  ...of a 200,000 signature goal [at this time of posting]

Are you not concerned that any such measure would really weaken our negotiating position or is that really the 'cunning plan'?

n_n, you can gat 16 million signatures but your cunning plan would still be as useful as one of Baldrick's turnips.

Resurrection posted:

PeterJ posted:

naim_nymph posted:

 

 

"I have a cunning plan...."

 

Update:

Presently 171,084  (and rising)  ...of a 200,000 signature goal [at this time of posting]

Are you not concerned that any such measure would really weaken our negotiating position or is that really the 'cunning plan'?

n_n, you can gat 16 million signatures but your cunning plan would still be as useful as one of Baldrick's turnips.

If that's your view on democracy, then perhaps form your perspective the government should treat the result of the original referendum with the same disdain?

Huge posted:

Resurrection posted:

PeterJ posted:

naim_nymph posted:

 

 

"I have a cunning plan...."

 

Update:

Presently 171,084  (and rising)  ...of a 200,000 signature goal [at this time of posting]

Are you not concerned that any such measure would really weaken our negotiating position or is that really the 'cunning plan'?

n_n, you can gat 16 million signatures but your cunning plan would still be as useful as one of Baldrick's turnips.

If that's your view on democracy, then perhaps form your perspective the government should treat the result of the original referendum with the same disdain?

Please note the number I quoted. When you get to 17.4 million respondents you can wake me and yourself up.

PeterJ posted:

naim_nymph posted:

 

 

"I have a cunning plan...."

 

Update:

Presently 171,084  (and rising)  ...of a 200,000 signature goal [at this time of posting]

Are you not concerned that any such measure would really weaken our negotiating position or is that really the 'cunning plan'?

It isn't 'our' negotiation position, it's subject only to the Tory Brexit-fascist cabinet agenda to secretly power grab them into a position of UK dictatorship, and in the meanwhile prevent the people of the UK from exercising 'democracy' with a very sensible and appropriate  confirmation vote on either way - Remain apart of the EU or continue over the cliff edge to the disaster of leaving.

Debs

Resurrection posted:

Huge posted:

Resurrection posted:

PeterJ posted:

naim_nymph posted:

 

 

"I have a cunning plan...."

 

Update:

Presently 171,084  (and rising)  ...of a 200,000 signature goal [at this time of posting]

Are you not concerned that any such measure would really weaken our negotiating position or is that really the 'cunning plan'?

n_n, you can gat 16 million signatures but your cunning plan would still be as useful as one of Baldrick's turnips.

If that's your view on democracy, then perhaps form your perspective the government should treat the result of the original referendum with the same disdain?

Please note the number I quoted. When you get to 17.4 million respondents you can wake me and yourself up.

Call a referendum and there will be . You know it, which is why you are so terrified lest a referendum be called. 

I am not a betting man, but I would lay money on the outcome of a confirmation referendum - and indeed on the number of votes against leaving being considerably more than 17.7 million.