Are we sleep-walking out of Europe ?

"Extensive" planning is under way to prepare the health service for a no-deal Brexit scenario, the NHS England chief executive says.

I suppose that if the NHS is preparing (contingency) plans for a "no-deal" Brexit, then I guess all of us would be wise to do the same.

Where do I start ?

Don Atkinson posted:

"Extensive" planning is under way to prepare the health service for a no-deal Brexit scenario, the NHS England chief executive says.

I suppose that if the NHS is preparing (contingency) plans for a "no-deal" Brexit, then I guess all of us would be wise to do the same.

Where do I start ?

In fact, it really would have been most wise if the Government had started planning for a 'no-deal' Brexit immediately after the referendum or, perhaps, even more.

naim_nymph posted:

 

 

"I have a cunning plan...."

 

Update:

Presently 171,084  (and rising)  ...of a 200,000 signature goal [at this time of posting]

Are you not concerned that any such measure would really weaken our negotiating position or is that really the 'cunning plan'?

PeterJ posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

"Extensive" planning is under way to prepare the health service for a no-deal Brexit scenario, the NHS England chief executive says.

I suppose that if the NHS is preparing (contingency) plans for a "no-deal" Brexit, then I guess all of us would be wise to do the same.

Where do I start ?

In fact, it really would have been most wise if the Government had started planning for a 'no-deal' Brexit immediately after the referendum or, perhaps, even more.

Exactly! How much more positive could this have been if instead of fighting like cats in a sack our so called politicians applied themselves to the best needs of our country post Brexit.

PeterJ posted:

naim_nymph posted:

 

 

"I have a cunning plan...."

 

Update:

Presently 171,084  (and rising)  ...of a 200,000 signature goal [at this time of posting]

Are you not concerned that any such measure would really weaken our negotiating position or is that really the 'cunning plan'?

n_n, you can gat 16 million signatures but your cunning plan would still be as useful as one of Baldrick's turnips.

Resurrection posted:

PeterJ posted:

naim_nymph posted:

 

 

"I have a cunning plan...."

 

Update:

Presently 171,084  (and rising)  ...of a 200,000 signature goal [at this time of posting]

Are you not concerned that any such measure would really weaken our negotiating position or is that really the 'cunning plan'?

n_n, you can gat 16 million signatures but your cunning plan would still be as useful as one of Baldrick's turnips.

If that's your view on democracy, then perhaps form your perspective the government should treat the result of the original referendum with the same disdain?

Huge posted:

Resurrection posted:

PeterJ posted:

naim_nymph posted:

 

 

"I have a cunning plan...."

 

Update:

Presently 171,084  (and rising)  ...of a 200,000 signature goal [at this time of posting]

Are you not concerned that any such measure would really weaken our negotiating position or is that really the 'cunning plan'?

n_n, you can gat 16 million signatures but your cunning plan would still be as useful as one of Baldrick's turnips.

If that's your view on democracy, then perhaps form your perspective the government should treat the result of the original referendum with the same disdain?

Please note the number I quoted. When you get to 17.4 million respondents you can wake me and yourself up.

PeterJ posted:

naim_nymph posted:

 

 

"I have a cunning plan...."

 

Update:

Presently 171,084  (and rising)  ...of a 200,000 signature goal [at this time of posting]

Are you not concerned that any such measure would really weaken our negotiating position or is that really the 'cunning plan'?

It isn't 'our' negotiation position, it's subject only to the Tory Brexit-fascist cabinet agenda to secretly power grab them into a position of UK dictatorship, and in the meanwhile prevent the people of the UK from exercising 'democracy' with a very sensible and appropriate  confirmation vote on either way - Remain apart of the EU or continue over the cliff edge to the disaster of leaving.

Debs

Resurrection posted:

Huge posted:

Resurrection posted:

PeterJ posted:

naim_nymph posted:

 

 

"I have a cunning plan...."

 

Update:

Presently 171,084  (and rising)  ...of a 200,000 signature goal [at this time of posting]

Are you not concerned that any such measure would really weaken our negotiating position or is that really the 'cunning plan'?

n_n, you can gat 16 million signatures but your cunning plan would still be as useful as one of Baldrick's turnips.

If that's your view on democracy, then perhaps form your perspective the government should treat the result of the original referendum with the same disdain?

Please note the number I quoted. When you get to 17.4 million respondents you can wake me and yourself up.

Call a referendum and there will be . You know it, which is why you are so terrified lest a referendum be called. 

I am not a betting man, but I would lay money on the outcome of a confirmation referendum - and indeed on the number of votes against leaving being considerably more than 17.7 million.

Innocent Bystander posted:

Resurrection posted:

Huge posted:

Resurrection posted:

PeterJ posted:

naim_nymph posted:

 

 

"I have a cunning plan...."

 

Update:

Presently 171,084  (and rising)  ...of a 200,000 signature goal [at this time of posting]

Are you not concerned that any such measure would really weaken our negotiating position or is that really the 'cunning plan'?

n_n, you can gat 16 million signatures but your cunning plan would still be as useful as one of Baldrick's turnips.

If that's your view on democracy, then perhaps form your perspective the government should treat the result of the original referendum with the same disdain?

Please note the number I quoted. When you get to 17.4 million respondents you can wake me and yourself up.

Call a referendum and there will be . You know it, which is why you are so terrified lest a referendum be called. 

I am not a betting man, but I would lay money on the outcome of a confirmation referendum - and indeed on the number of votes against leaving being considerably more than 17.7 million.

Bet all you like, I am not worried in the slightest. Have you even had a look nat the state of your beloved EU recently? Do you really think that the much more informed British public would allow you to rejoin the Grand Kleptocracy?

Resurrection posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

Call a referendum and there will be . You know it, which is why you are so terrified lest a referendum be called. 

I am not a betting man, but I would lay money on the outcome of a confirmation referendum - and indeed on the number of votes against leaving being considerably more than 17.7 million.

Bet all you like, I am not worried in the slightest. Have you even had a look nat the state of your beloved EU recently? Do you really think that the much more informed British public would allow you to rejoin the Grand Kleptocracy?

As you are well aware, I have said nothing about rejoining.

Do you really think that anywhere even approaching 17.7 million people would endorse the vote of 2016 if it was offered today?

No, I didn’t think so.

Innocent Bystander posted:

Resurrection posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

Call a referendum and there will be . You know it, which is why you are so terrified lest a referendum be called. 

I am not a betting man, but I would lay money on the outcome of a confirmation referendum - and indeed on the number of votes against leaving being considerably more than 17.7 million.

Bet all you like, I am not worried in the slightest. Have you even had a look nat the state of your beloved EU recently? Do you really think that the much more informed British public would allow you to rejoin the Grand Kleptocracy?

As you are well aware, I have said nothing about rejoining.

Do you really think that anywhere even approaching 17.7 million people would endorse the vote of 2016 if it was offered today?

 

No, I didn’t think so.

If it had to be offered today the number in favour of Brexit would easily top 20 million no matter what your friends might tell you. 

Resurrection posted:

Huge posted:

If that's your view on democracy, then perhaps form your perspective the government should treat the result of the original referendum with the same disdain?

Please note the number I quoted. When you get to 17.4 million respondents you can wake me and yourself up.

So, the magic number is 17.4m is it, presumably then if the number of votes cast for in the Brexit referendum had only been 17.3m, you wouldn't have supported it?

On the other had if you don't believe that there's a specific minimum number requirement, just a simple majority of votes will do (as in the Brexit referendum)...

How many signatures are there on the petition to ensure that there isn't a second referendum?    Oh well... so it looks as thought this petition is also a majority (at least by the same logic you apply to the Brexit referendum!).

Since you claim to believe in the rule of a simple majority, you should now believe in the simple majority as shown in this petition and accept a second referendum!

Huge posted:

Resurrection posted:

Huge posted:

If that's your view on democracy, then perhaps form your perspective the government should treat the result of the original referendum with the same disdain?

Please note the number I quoted. When you get to 17.4 million respondents you can wake me and yourself up.

So, the magic number is 17.4m is it, presumably then if the number of votes cast for in the Brexit referendum had only been 17.3m, you wouldn't have supported it?

 

On the other had if you don't believe that there's a specific minimum number requirement, just a simple majority of votes will do (as in the Brexit referendum)...

How many signatures are there on the petition to ensure that there isn't a second referendum?    Oh well... so it looks as thought this petition is also a majority (at least by the same logic you apply to the Brexit referendum!).

Since you claim to believe in the rule of a simple majority, you should now believe in the simple majority as shown in this petition and accept a second referendum!

Err, no-one sanctioned or mandated this petition. It is a meaningless irrelevance rather like your arguments above. There was only one relevant argument which despite your denial, you lost convincingly. Can't and won;'t help you with that Huge.

Resurrection posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

Resurrection posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

Call a referendum and there will be . You know it, which is why you are so terrified lest a referendum be called. 

I am not a betting man, but I would lay money on the outcome of a confirmation referendum - and indeed on the number of votes against leaving being considerably more than 17.7 million.

Bet all you like, I am not worried in the slightest. Have you even had a look nat the state of your beloved EU recently? Do you really think that the much more informed British public would allow you to rejoin the Grand Kleptocracy?

As you are well aware, I have said nothing about rejoining.

Do you really think that anywhere even approaching 17.7 million people would endorse the vote of 2016 if it was offered today?

 

No, I didn’t think so.

If it had to be offered today the number in favour of Brexit would easily top 20 million no matter what your friends might tell you. 

So why are you so anti confirmation, which would shut up remainers once and for all and give true power to the leave action?  Of course, we all know the answer - whilst easy to state the number, in your heart of hearts you know it would be nowhere near that, hence your entrenched opposition because democracy would defeat your desire.

Resurrection posted:

Huge posted:

So, the magic number is 17.4m is it, presumably then if the number of votes cast for in the Brexit referendum had only been 17.3m, you wouldn't have supported it?

 

On the other had if you don't believe that there's a specific minimum number requirement, just a simple majority of votes will do (as in the Brexit referendum)...

How many signatures are there on the petition to ensure that there isn't a second referendum?    Oh well... so it looks as thought this petition is also a majority (at least by the same logic you apply to the Brexit referendum!).

Since you claim to believe in the rule of a simple majority, you should now believe in the simple majority as shown in this petition and accept a second referendum!

Err, no-one sanctioned or mandated this petition. It is a meaningless irrelevance rather like your arguments above. There was only one relevant argument which despite your denial, you lost convincingly. Can't and won;'t help you with that Huge.

So you only agree with following democratic opinion when both of the following are true:

1  It's official government policy to hold a public vote.
2  It's likely to support your entrenched views or there's a possibility it may change an existing policy to comply with your entrenched views.

Your style of democracy is the type of democracy one has in N Korea!  Also bear in mind that numerous totalitarian regimes have got to power and then retained power by winning elections and then promptly ensuring that no other view can be allowed to mount any effective democratic challenge to "the will of the people" (as the then ruling party see it) - just as you are advocating!

 
(BTW 37.3% to 34.7% (with 27.8% abstentions) is hardly a 'convincing' majority, more like a marginal majority - why do you continue with your hyperbole when the truth of your exaggerated position is so obvious, let alone that your 'facts' are now more than 2 years out of date!)

PeterJ posted:

naim_nymph posted:

 

 

"I have a cunning plan...."

 

Update:

Presently 171,084  (and rising)  ...of a 200,000 signature goal [at this time of posting]

Are you not concerned that any such measure would really weaken our negotiating position or is that really the 'cunning plan'?

Two flaws with this proposition:

1. Our current incumbents in power can't even agree *any* negotiating position, thanks to TM's weak leadership.

2. It's about power, and who wields it. The EU holds a much stronger negotiating position, and there is no likelihood that they will substantively alter any of their red lines, though some face saving compromise may be offered. The UK simply doesn't have the clout to enforce any other outcome than the offers on the table - i.e. Norway or Canada style solutions or the fall out (hard Brexit). Yanis Varafoukis was making the point soon after the referendum that Norway is the only sensible (i.e. least bad) option for the UK, perhaps as a temporary solution, pending the investment of time and resources in finding a political consensus to establish the infrastructure and logistics for a longer-term solution. In reality, the last two years have been wasted in internal political turmoil (in both main political parties in the UK). Of course, the Norway model comes with the political cost of free movement of people, though there seems a new realism that the UK does actually need free movement to function as an economy...

Resurrection posted:

PeterJ posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

"Extensive" planning is under way to prepare the health service for a no-deal Brexit scenario, the NHS England chief executive says.

I suppose that if the NHS is preparing (contingency) plans for a "no-deal" Brexit, then I guess all of us would be wise to do the same.

Where do I start ?

In fact, it really would have been most wise if the Government had started planning for a 'no-deal' Brexit immediately after the referendum or, perhaps, even more.

Exactly! How much more positive could this have been if instead of fighting like cats in a sack our so called politicians applied themselves to the best needs of our country post Brexit.

What I find particularly disappointing is that our politicians seem incapable and/or unwilling to separate out and manage effectively: a coherent and balanced Brexit 'requirement' (i.e. a reasonably detailed and thoughtful set of desired outcomes on trade, borders, justice, cross-country regulatory agency functions and so on) versus a negotiation strategy v ideology.  It seems me that these three distinct set of issues are constantly getting muddled up with the end result that within the UK and to the rest of the EU this government just looks an incoherent mess.    It's all rather embarrassing, and the fact that it is affecting the most important issue that the UK has faced since WWII makes it very depressing. 

MDS posted:

Resurrection posted:

PeterJ posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

"Extensive" planning is under way to prepare the health service for a no-deal Brexit scenario, the NHS England chief executive says.

I suppose that if the NHS is preparing (contingency) plans for a "no-deal" Brexit, then I guess all of us would be wise to do the same.

Where do I start ?

In fact, it really would have been most wise if the Government had started planning for a 'no-deal' Brexit immediately after the referendum or, perhaps, even more.

Exactly! How much more positive could this have been if instead of fighting like cats in a sack our so called politicians applied themselves to the best needs of our country post Brexit.

What I find particularly disappointing is that our politicians seem incapable and/or unwilling to separate out and manage effectively: a coherent and balanced Brexit 'requirement' (i.e. a reasonably detailed and thoughtful set of desired outcomes on trade, borders, justice, cross-country regulatory agency functions and so on) versus a negotiation strategy v ideology.  It seems me that these three distinct set of issues are constantly getting muddled up with the end result that within the UK and to the rest of the EU this government just looks an incoherent mess.    It's all rather embarrassing, and the fact that it is affecting the most important issue that the UK has faced since WWII makes it very depressing. 

Yep, cats in a bag clawing ar one another about something they themselves called. Does not really matter your opinion of the result they, the politicians, are completely inept at implementing something they started. 

Resurrection posted:

MDS posted:

What I find particularly disappointing is that our politicians seem incapable and/or unwilling to separate out and manage effectively: a coherent and balanced Brexit 'requirement' (i.e. a reasonably detailed and thoughtful set of desired outcomes on trade, borders, justice, cross-country regulatory agency functions and so on) versus a negotiation strategy v ideology.  It seems me that these three distinct set of issues are constantly getting muddled up with the end result that within the UK and to the rest of the EU this government just looks an incoherent mess.    It's all rather embarrassing, and the fact that it is affecting the most important issue that the UK has faced since WWII makes it very depressing. 

Yep, cats in a bag clawing ar one another about something they themselves called. Does not really matter your opinion of the result they, the politicians, are completely inept at implementing something they started. 

Now, that is something with which I - and indeed I suspect all - wholeheartedly agree is shameful, in its literal sense, and is doing the country untold harm. The whole lot should be sacked - and refused eligibility in the subsequent general election. Is there a y way a petition could achieve that? 

MDS posted:

 

What I find particularly disappointing is that our politicians seem incapable and/or unwilling to separate out and manage effectively: a coherent and balanced Brexit 'requirement' (i.e. a reasonably detailed and thoughtful set of desired outcomes on trade, borders, justice, cross-country regulatory agency functions and so on) versus a negotiation strategy v ideology.  It seems me that these three distinct set of issues are constantly getting muddled up with the end result that within the UK and to the rest of the EU this government just looks an incoherent mess.    It's all rather embarrassing, and the fact that it is affecting the most important issue that the UK has faced since WWII makes it very depressing. 

It has been a sad fact of UK political life for some time that neither main party [and others] are coherent or honest enough to be worth voting for, hypothetically speaking it would make more sense for us British peoples in Britain to directly vote for our regional MEPs at General Elections and have all legislation and laws conducted at Brussels. Think of the massive savings we would have by disbanding the shower of shit-useless MPs in the HoC, and another massive saving by carefully dissembling the decrepit Houses of Parliament for the reclamation business, make enough money to build something useful on the site instead; like affordable homes for the homeless.

Just imagine not having to put up with cringeworthy PMQ every Wednesday - it's like watching twiddle dum and twiddle dee, complete waste of time and woffle at the public tax payers expenses, no small wonder the UK Brexit new world order folly is the laughing stock of the Universe!

Imagine there's no houses of parliament 
It's easy if you try
No HoL to belittle us
Above us pie in the sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today... Aha-ah...

Imagine there's 28 countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no Nigel Farage, too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace... You...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the EU will be as one

naim_nymph posted:

MDS posted:

 

What I find particularly disappointing is that our politicians seem incapable and/or unwilling to separate out and manage effectively: a coherent and balanced Brexit 'requirement' (i.e. a reasonably detailed and thoughtful set of desired outcomes on trade, borders, justice, cross-country regulatory agency functions and so on) versus a negotiation strategy v ideology.  It seems me that these three distinct set of issues are constantly getting muddled up with the end result that within the UK and to the rest of the EU this government just looks an incoherent mess.    It's all rather embarrassing, and the fact that it is affecting the most important issue that the UK has faced since WWII makes it very depressing. 

It has been a sad fact of UK political life for some time that neither main party [and others] are coherent or honest enough to be worth voting for, hypothetically speaking it would make more sense for us British peoples in Britain to directly vote for our regional MEPs at General Elections and have all legislation and laws conducted at Brussels. Think of the massive savings we would have by disbanding the shower of shit-useless MPs in the HoC, and another massive saving by carefully dissembling the decrepit Houses of Parliament for the reclamation business, make enough money to build something useful on the site instead; like affordable homes for the homeless.

Just imagine not having to put up with cringeworthy PMQ every Wednesday - it's like watching twiddle dum and twiddle dee, complete waste of time and woffle at the public tax payers expenses, no small wonder the UK Brexit new world order folly is the laughing stock of the Universe!

Imagine there's no houses of parliament 
It's easy if you try
No HoL to belittle us
Above us pie in the sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today... Aha-ah...

Imagine there's 28 countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no Nigel Farage, too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace... You...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the EU will be as one

Nice thought from one angle - but the trouble is, that presumes that the MEPs we elect a) will be intent only on securing the best for the British people, and b) will have sufficient influence to make a difference fir us - which given the small part we would be, would very much rely on many others being of like mind. So in reality any ‘Britishness’ would disappear from all laws.

Whether that is a bad thing is perhaps uncertain- I can’t put my finger on a specific reason why, but it is something I personally am not comfortable with, and I suspect that would apply to a large number of others includingmany of those who voted remain, and I think is one of the key reasons depriving thise that did vote leave. And if our own politicians can’t act effectively in finding a way forward for the country at a time of crisis instead of promoting self interest, what reason is there to think that the same sel-interest won’t drive the powers that be in the EU? I actually think that the risk of disconnect would likely be even greater than with parliament today.

naim_nymph posted:

MDS posted:

 

What I find particularly disappointing is that our politicians seem incapable and/or unwilling to separate out and manage effectively: a coherent and balanced Brexit 'requirement' (i.e. a reasonably detailed and thoughtful set of desired outcomes on trade, borders, justice, cross-country regulatory agency functions and so on) versus a negotiation strategy v ideology.  It seems me that these three distinct set of issues are constantly getting muddled up with the end result that within the UK and to the rest of the EU this government just looks an incoherent mess.    It's all rather embarrassing, and the fact that it is affecting the most important issue that the UK has faced since WWII makes it very depressing. 

It has been a sad fact of UK political life for some time that neither main party [and others] are coherent or honest enough to be worth voting for, hypothetically speaking it would make more sense for us British peoples in Britain to directly vote for our regional MEPs at General Elections and have all legislation and laws conducted at Brussels. Think of the massive savings we would have by disbanding the shower of shit-useless MPs in the HoC, and another massive saving by carefully dissembling the decrepit Houses of Parliament for the reclamation business, make enough money to build something useful on the site instead; like affordable homes for the homeless.

Just imagine not having to put up with cringeworthy PMQ every Wednesday - it's like watching twiddle dum and twiddle dee, complete waste of time and woffle at the public tax payers expenses, no small wonder the UK Brexit new world order folly is the laughing stock of the Universe!

Imagine there's no houses of parliament 
It's easy if you try
No HoL to belittle us
Above us pie in the sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today... Aha-ah...

Imagine there's 28 countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no Nigel Farage, too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace... You...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the EU will be as one

A tad OTT n_n, and you will be the only one when the Kleptocracy collapses. ????

SOCIALISM

You have 2 cows.
You give one to your neighbour.

COMMUNISM

You have 2 cows.
The State takes both and gives you some milk.

FASCISM

You have 2 cows.
The State takes both and sells you some milk.

EUROPEAN UNION

You have 2 cows.
The State takes both, shoots one, milks the other, and then throws the milk away.

TRADITIONAL CAPITALISM

You have two cows.
You sell one and buy a bull.
Your herd multiplies, and the economy grows.
You sell them and retire on the income.

AMERICAN CORPORATISM

You have two cows.
You sell one, and force the other to produce the milk of four cows.
Later, you hire a consultant to analyse why the cow has dropped dead.

ROYAL BANK OF SCOTLAND VENTURE CAPITALISM

You have two cows.
You sell three of them to your publicly listed company, using letters of credit opened by your brother-in-law at the bank, then execute debt/equity swap with an associated general offer so that you get all four cows back, with a tax exemption for five cows.
The milk rights of the six cows are transferred via an intermediary to a Cayman Island Company secretly owned by the majority shareholder who sells the rights to all seven cows back to your listed company.
The annual report says the company owns eight cows, with an option on one more.
The audited accounts make no mention of the cows on the balance sheet
You keep paying for milk but never get any

FRENCH CORPORATISM

You have two cows.
You go on strike, organize a riot, and block the roads, because you want three cows.

JAPANESE CORPORATISM

You have two cows.
You redesign them so they are one-tenth the size of an ordinary cow and produce twenty times the milk.
You then create a clever cow cartoon image called `Cowkimon´ and market it worldwide.

GERMAN CORPORATISM

You have two cows.
You re-engineer them so they live for 100 years, eat once a month, and milk themselves.

ITALIAN CORPORATISM

You have two cows, but you don´t know where they are.
You decide to have lunch.

SWISS CORPORATISM

You have 5000 cows. None of them belong to you.
You charge the owners for storing them.

CHINESE CORPORATISM

You have two cows.
You have 300 people milking them.
You claim that you have full employment, and high bovine productivity.
You arrest the newsman who reported the real situation.

INDIAN CORPORATISM

You have two cows.
You worship them.

BRITISH CORPORATISM

You have two cows.
Both are mad.

E

Innocent Bystander posted:

I am not a betting man, but I would lay money on the outcome of a confirmation referendum - and indeed on the number of votes against leaving being considerably more than 17.7 million.

Really? On what evidence do you base that assertion?