Are we sleep-walking out of Europe ?

MDS posted:

Cheer up, Resurrection, and get behind England in the World Cup. Looks like the only bit of good news the country is getting   

Much to the horror of some of my Scottish family and friends I am fully behind England in the World Cup. I like the team, their manager and the lack of egos. ????

I see another Brexiteer has been chosen to succeed Davis: Raab. Not sure how that's going to help.

It will be interesting to see how Barnier and co respond to the detail of the agreement outlined at Cabinet on Friday. Behind the scenes they are probably rolling on the floor laughing at the chaos within the UK's Cabinet but the EU will put on a professional and serious face publicly.

I know many people feel that the EU holds all the cards. I definitely think the EU hold a much stronger hand but there are three areas where the UK has some leverage:

(i) the EU exports more goods to the UK than the UK exports to it, so the EU will want to protect its trade balance

(ii) the UK is a heavy-weight on military and security matters. The EU will not want to weaken the support it enjoys from the UK; and

(iii) the UK is a net contributor to the EU budget. Money always talks.

So we have something with which to negotiate.

BBC is reporting today that No 10 is reaching out to opposition MPs.  Looks like the PM is trying to build a parliamentary consensus for her proposals. Sensible, as it could weaken the power of the Brexiteers. It will be interesting to see how Corbyn reacts to this. On the one hand he will be enjoying the discomfort of the Conservatives but on the other he is also conflicted and so would probably like to stay quiet on his own policies and just throw stones at May.

Resurrection posted:

MDS posted:

Cheer up, Resurrection, and get behind England in the World Cup. Looks like the only bit of good news the country is getting   

Much to the horror of some of my Scottish family and friends I am fully behind England in the World Cup. I like the team, their manager and the lack of egos. ????

Good man! 

I very much agree about the lack of egos. Refreshing.

Resurrection posted:

Huge posted:

Resurrection posted:

Yes, when I voted for the Conservatives last year it certainly wasn’t for the Conservatives that are currently overstaying their welcome in Westminster. I really think we should have a rewind on 2017 with a thorough investigation into May’s leadership, decision making processes and her congenital need to appease everyone but the British people. If necessary, and the prevalent polls look positive, with a completely new leader and the removal of all Remainers, we should rerun the General Election. How’s about that then, as someone who is thankfully not around any more used to say. 

Followed immediately by a rewind of 2016 and a rerun of the brexit referendum of course!

The hopelessness of our current situation defies me finding words momentarily! All I can say is that on one hand and one end of the spectrum we had Margaret Thatcher while at the complete opposite we have Theresa May, and to my utter shame, as a Scotsman, how could my country have produced such an unedifying jellyfish as Gove? 

Well, unless I misinterpreted your worms, ... then in relation to the previous post, that seems to be a complete non-sequiter!

Huge posted:

Resurrection posted:

Huge posted:

Resurrection posted:

Yes, when I voted for the Conservatives last year it certainly wasn’t for the Conservatives that are currently overstaying their welcome in Westminster. I really think we should have a rewind on 2017 with a thorough investigation into May’s leadership, decision making processes and her congenital need to appease everyone but the British people. If necessary, and the prevalent polls look positive, with a completely new leader and the removal of all Remainers, we should rerun the General Election. How’s about that then, as someone who is thankfully not around any more used to say. 

Followed immediately by a rewind of 2016 and a rerun of the brexit referendum of course!

The hopelessness of our current situation defies me finding words momentarily! All I can say is that on one hand and one end of the spectrum we had Margaret Thatcher while at the complete opposite we have Theresa May, and to my utter shame, as a Scotsman, how could my country have produced such an unedifying jellyfish as Gove? 

Well, unless I misinterpreted your worms, ... then in relation to the previous post, that seems to be a complete non-sequiter!

Huge, you don't always have to take everything I say as the gospel according to RR. Some things I say in jest and others, such as Gove and May, I am deadly serious. And, to add to the fun, I will get back to eating my 'worms'.

Resurrection posted:

Huge, you don't always have to take everything I say as the gospel according to RR. Some things I say in jest and others, such as Gove and May, I am deadly serious. And, to add to the fun, I will get back to eating my 'worms'.

I had already noted that everything you say about a confirmatory referendum,  the “People’s Vote” petition and believing in democracy are in jest. Probably Brexit, too...

Dexit then Bexit! Boris gone. What a farce this whole escapade has become.

Mexit next?

G

Innocent Bystander posted:

Resurrection posted:

Huge, you don't always have to take everything I say as the gospel according to RR. Some things I say in jest and others, such as Gove and May, I am deadly serious. And, to add to the fun, I will get back to eating my 'worms'.

I had already noted that everything you say about a confirmatory referendum,  the “People’s Vote” petition and believing in democracy are in jest. Probably Brexit, too...

Never Brexit - And now Boris, the opportunist, is gone.

Well Boris will probably be of more use laying in front of bull-dozers at Heathrow, as he has promised to do. 

Resurrection posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

Resurrection posted:

Huge, you don't always have to take everything I say as the gospel according to RR. Some things I say in jest and others, such as Gove and May, I am deadly serious. And, to add to the fun, I will get back to eating my 'worms'.

I had already noted that everything you say about a confirmatory referendum,  the “People’s Vote” petition and believing in democracy are in jest. Probably Brexit, too...

Never Brexit - And now Boris, the opportunist, is gone.

Strangely, I do agree with you. No lover of Boris am I. He changes sides faster than he changes his partners.

Thought Corbyn's comment about Davis and Johnson delaying their resignations so that they could get government car rides home was rather good. 

Perhaps in all this disruption there are some signs of hope. Good luck.

So is Boris leaving a way of positioning himself because he thinks May will have to go?

I assume he does nothing without an 'angle' for his own advancement. Obviously his calculation is now that is is better not to be associated with May et al. Or maybe he thinks a softish, semi-firm Brexit is actually going to happen and he wants to have none of it?

Politics, schmolitics. none helps the negotiations that we desperately need to progress.

Surely every side of the Brexit argument views this as a total mess now. Is anyone 'winning'?

Bruce

Bruce Woodhouse posted:

So is Boris leaving a way of positioning himself because he thinks May will have to go?

I assume he does nothing without an 'angle' for his own advancement. Obviously his calculation is now that is is better not to be associated with May et al. Or maybe he thinks a softish, semi-firm Brexit is actually going to happen and he wants to have none of it?

Politics, schmolitics. none helps the negotiations that we desperately need to progress.

Surely every side of the Brexit argument views this as a total mess now. Is anyone 'winning'?

Bruce

What happens now is that we are in political free fall. May opportunistically got her job after Cameron's resignation after losing the seemingly unlosable. May then proceeded to appease everyone on the Remain side and Brussels while arrogantly believing that she could fool the Brexiteers all of the time, after all they were all swivel eyed loons.  

The loss of Johnson and Davis may give cheer to the Establishment Remainers but will simply incense the Brexiteers even more and gradually the numbers needed to call a challenge on May's leadership must be getting pretty close to the necessary 48. If you are a card carrying member of Momentum you may think your birthdays are all about to arrive but Corbyn is as unelectable now as he was last year. 

We new about to have political civil war of an unprecedented level in everyone's living memory. You don't like it, I don't like it but it will happen and it won't be just about he ins and outs of Brexit. There will be no peace in our time, and I sincerely mean that folks. 

Bruce Woodhouse posted:

So is Boris leaving a way of positioning himself because he thinks May will have to go?

Knowing him, he is Bruce. He has never acted out of principle, because he has no principles. He is an extreme and vacuous narcissist.

My guess that if he does make a bid for leadership, he will fail and that will be the end of his 'career' on frontline politics. So that's all for the good.

Huge posted:

Followed immediately by a rewind of 2016 and a rerun of the brexit referendum of course!

The elites and the army of Brussels delegates continue to try to figure out how to turn the clock back despite the very basic fact that the people have spoken.

This thread could largely read like the first half of HRC's book entitled, "What Happened."  I have a suggestion.  Since that title is already taken why don't all the Remoaner's publish this thread plus personal stories of woe under the title of "What Happened, Too."   Another choice could be, "The (Sleep-)Walking (out of Europe,) Dead."  If none of these titles float your boat, then why not a useless handbook called, "Remoaning for Dummies"

Who knows, it may even hit number one and outsell other great titles in the series?

For the titles and copyright, all I want out of this is enough to upgrade my system to a Statement level and a small island.  Then I could retire from being a political commentator and humorist and finely focus solely on music.  ;-)

Lastly, I think what the Remoaner's in the UK really need is the Remoaner equivalent cry (exorcism) of the following to bring you all together.  Maybe Theresa May could do the honours on her way out?  It would be cathartic, I'm hoping?  Just let it out....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLAZ4TS0-Y4

Resurrection posted:

Bruce Woodhouse posted:

So is Boris leaving a way of positioning himself because he thinks May will have to go?

I assume he does nothing without an 'angle' for his own advancement. Obviously his calculation is now that is is better not to be associated with May et al. Or maybe he thinks a softish, semi-firm Brexit is actually going to happen and he wants to have none of it?

Politics, schmolitics. none helps the negotiations that we desperately need to progress.

Surely every side of the Brexit argument views this as a total mess now. Is anyone 'winning'?

Bruce

What happens now is that we are in political free fall. May opportunistically got her job after Cameron's resignation after losing the seemingly unlosable. May then proceeded to appease everyone on the Remain side and Brussels while arrogantly believing that she could fool the Brexiteers all of the time, after all they were all swivel eyed loons.  

The loss of Johnson and Davis may give cheer to the Establishment Remainers but will simply incense the Brexiteers even more and gradually the numbers needed to call a challenge on May's leadership must be getting pretty close to the necessary 48. If you are a card carrying member of Momentum you may think your birthdays are all about to arrive but Corbyn is as unelectable now as he was last year. 

We new about to have political civil war of an unprecedented level in everyone's living memory. You don't like it, I don't like it but it will happen and it won't be just about he ins and outs of Brexit. There will be no peace in our time, and I sincerely mean that folks. 

For once we are in total agreement - which is both shocking and sad! 

Florestan posted:

Huge posted:

Followed immediately by a rewind of 2016 and a rerun of the brexit referendum of course!

The elites and the army of Brussels delegates continue to try to figure out how to turn the clock back despite the very basic fact that the people have spoken.

This thread could largely read like the first half of HRC's book entitled, "What Happened."  I have a suggestion.  Since that title is already taken why don't all the Remoaner's publish this thread plus personal stories of woe under the title of "What Happened, Too."   Another choice could be, "The (Sleep-)Walking (out of Europe,) Dead."  If none of these titles float your boat, then why not a useless handbook called, "Remoaning for Dummies"

Who knows, it may even hit number one and outsell other great titles in the series?

For the titles and copyright, all I want out of this is enough to upgrade my system to a Statement level and a small island.  Then I could retire from being a political commentator and humorist and finely focus solely on music.  ;-)

Lastly, I think what the Remoaner's in the UK really need is the Remoaner equivalent cry (exorcism) of the following to bring you all together.  Maybe Theresa May could do the honours on her way out?  It would be cathartic, I'm hoping?  Just let it out....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLAZ4TS0-Y4

Ha! Ha! Brilliant!

So there you have it, busted flush Brexit is a complete failure.

simply toss it in the historical wheelie bin of really dum ideas,

and let's get on with being a nation state within the EU  - which is what most people in the UK really want anyway.

Debs

naim_nymph posted:

So there you have it, busted flush Brexit is a complete failure.

simply toss it in the historical wheelie bin of really dum ideas,

and let's get on with being a nation state within the EU  - which is what most people in the UK really want anyway.

Debs

 

Err speak for yourself, Debs. the only things I want in a dustbin are the EU, Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn. The fun has just begun.

Giant dead parrot found in UK. Species 'Psitticus Brexitus'.

Scientists insist it's dead & won't fly. Gvmt say "the people" demand it flies.

naim_nymph posted:

and let's get on with being a nation state within the EU  - which is what most people in the UK really want anyway.

One slight flaw with that proposal, Debs. The EU doesn't like nation states. It has spent the best part of a quarter of a century trying to eradicate them.

The EU as it is currently structured is untenable anyway, and will collapse within 30-50 years if it does not reform itself and abandon its dogmatic adherance to its 'rules'. So even those as dogmatic and dense as Verhofstadt and Juncker will see that change is the only way they can hold onto their taxpayer-funded sinecures and fat pensions and change will come. 

So I hope we see the return of an EEC-style entity which will allow the nation states of Europe to trade and co-operate freely without having to submit to the yoke of an absurd and unaccountable bureaucracy.

Kevin-W posted:

Bruce Woodhouse posted:

So is Boris leaving a way of positioning himself because he thinks May will have to go?

Knowing him, he is Bruce. He has never acted out of principle, because he has no principles. He is an extreme and vacuous narcissist.

My guess that if he does make a bid for leadership, he will fail and that will be the end of his 'career' on frontline politics. So that's all for the good.

Oh, I very much hope so.

Resurrection posted:

Bruce Woodhouse posted:

So is Boris leaving a way of positioning himself because he thinks May will have to go?

I assume he does nothing without an 'angle' for his own advancement. Obviously his calculation is now that is is better not to be associated with May et al. Or maybe he thinks a softish, semi-firm Brexit is actually going to happen and he wants to have none of it?

Politics, schmolitics. none helps the negotiations that we desperately need to progress.

Surely every side of the Brexit argument views this as a total mess now. Is anyone 'winning'?

Bruce

What happens now is that we are in political free fall. May opportunistically got her job after Cameron's resignation after losing the seemingly unlosable. May then proceeded to appease everyone on the Remain side and Brussels while arrogantly believing that she could fool the Brexiteers all of the time, after all they were all swivel eyed loons.  

The loss of Johnson and Davis may give cheer to the Establishment Remainers but will simply incense the Brexiteers even more and gradually the numbers needed to call a challenge on May's leadership must be getting pretty close to the necessary 48. If you are a card carrying member of Momentum you may think your birthdays are all about to arrive but Corbyn is as unelectable now as he was last year. 

We new about to have political civil war of an unprecedented level in everyone's living memory. You don't like it, I don't like it but it will happen and it won't be just about he ins and outs of Brexit. There will be no peace in our time, and I sincerely mean that folks. 

Depressing as that prospect might be, I fear you might be right. I would have no confidence in a government lead by Corbyn doing any better on Brexit, and maybe quite a lot worse.

Kevin-W posted:

naim_nymph posted:

.

So I hope we see the return of an EEC-style entity which will allow the nation states of Europe to trade and co-operate freely without having to submit to the yoke of an absurd and unaccountable bureaucracy.

There might have been a chance for had if the UK remained a member of the EU. We have long been a force of reform and change within the EU. I can't see Germany or France leading such a reform so I really can't see where the impetus for that is going to come from. It won't come from the electorates of member states because, unlike the foolish Cameron, I can't see any political leaders of the big member states allowing a referendum on EU membership. And I say 'big' because I couldn't rule out Greece doing something like this on the mistaken belief that it would ease its financial problems.    

UK could just apply  to join the United States of America - after all, that is the direction the right wingers seem to lean.  Then Mr T could rule (and the A team?j May, Corbyn and all the rest of the useless British Parliament (apologies to the very few to whom that might not apply) could be put out to pasture, and we can all start to spell colour without a u, add 10 to got, legalise the guns that seem to be too readily available on our streets, have a party every 4th July in a way 5th November never really happens...