Are we sleep-walking out of Europe ?

So that Cabinet unity didn't last very long, did it?

I wonder whether this is now going to lead to the flushing out of the hard Brexiteers within the Tory party (who don't have the numbers in Parliament to support their preferred Brexit approach) or the collapse of TM's leadership of the Tory party?  Many would find the latter to be fun but I think for the good of the UK I hope its the former.

Halloween Man posted:

I agree the EU holds all the cards and always has simply because the UK has a lot more to lose than the EU.

May's plan is utter folly. What's the point of being outside the EU, having no power and influence, yet still have to abide by decisions made by the EU for the EU? Might as well stay in it and at least have your say and veto the decisions you may not like. Do we really believe France and Germany will make decisions that will be in the best interests of the UK? They will make decisions that are in the best interests of themselves and the UK will not be able to do a thing about it unless we are full members of the EU.

The UK should either be fully in or fully out with full control of its own devices. If we are fully out then say goodbye to Scotland, Northern Ireland, the UK, and say hello to little England.

To quote another politician, we are mad, literally mad.

Agreed Halloween Man. No matter what, the EU cannot have or allow half in, half out membership for the U.K. Even Norway or Swiss type relationships will probably not be tolerated as that would severely weaken Brussels control over all its members. 

As we all know, May is an arch-Remainer with whatever spine she may actually possess being the one that reinforces her husband’s EU interests. Having got rid of the pair of SPADs that caused her GE fiasco, she has now handed all Brexit negotiations to another bureaucratic Remainer like herself, Oily Robbins, and I certainly never voted for him and neither did any of you.

Huge posted:

Resurrection posted:

Yes, when I voted for the Conservatives last year it certainly wasn’t for the Conservatives that are currently overstaying their welcome in Westminster. I really think we should have a rewind on 2017 with a thorough investigation into May’s leadership, decision making processes and her congenital need to appease everyone but the British people. If necessary, and the prevalent polls look positive, with a completely new leader and the removal of all Remainers, we should rerun the General Election. How’s about that then, as someone who is thankfully not around any more used to say. 

Followed immediately by a rewind of 2016 and a rerun of the brexit referendum of course!

No need to have a re-un of the referendum, there’s no point. It’s been proven the UK can’t leave the the EU without catastrophic economic consequenses.

The only option - Cancel Brexit.

You know it makes sense.

MDS posted:

So that Cabinet unity didn't last very long, did it?

Maybe it was the prospect of paying a taxi fare from Chequers on Friday that delayed Davis' resignation.

Huge posted:

Resurrection posted:

Dave***t posted:

Eloise posted:

I’m not sure though if I don’t agree with JR-M... it appears the proposal has U.K. accepting large portions of EU regulation, without any say over what that regulation will be.  How can this be a step forward or what many Leavers voted for?

Don’t fall into the hard brexiteers’ trap of believing that all leavers voted for such a hard Brexit.

Certainly some did, but the intentions of voters cannot be known when they are given a stark binary choice.

Right up until the day, even hard leave campaigners were explicitly saying that’d we’d remian in the single market, whatever happened.

When it comes to JRM and his ilk, please don’t play their game for them. 

Yes, when I voted for the Conservatives last year it certainly wasn’t for the Conservatives that are currently overstaying their welcome in Westminster. I really think we should have a rewind on 2017 with a thorough investigation into May’s leadership, decision making processes and her congenital need to appease everyone but the British people. If necessary, and the prevalent polls look positive, with a completely new leader and the removal of all Remainers, we should rerun the General Election. How’s about that then, as someone who is thankfully not around any more used to say. 

Followed immediately by a rewind of 2016 and a rerun of the brexit referendum of course!

The hopelessness of our current situation defies me finding words momentarily! All I can say is that on one hand and one end of the spectrum we had Margaret Thatcher while at the complete opposite we have Theresa May, and to my utter shame, as a Scotsman, how could my country have produced such an unedifying jellyfish as Gove? 

MDS posted:

So that Cabinet unity didn't last very long, did it?

I wonder whether this is now going to lead to the flushing out of the hard Brexiteers within the Tory party (who don't have the numbers in Parliament to support their preferred Brexit approach) or the collapse of TM's leadership of the Tory party?  Many would find the latter to be fun but I think for the good of the UK I hope its the former.

The latter obviously. Can’t even find the will to put a smiley face.

Christopher_M posted:

MDS posted:

So that Cabinet unity didn't last very long, did it?

Maybe it was the prospect of paying a taxi fare from Chequers on Friday that delayed Davis' resignation.

As it was a Cabinet Meeting of the Conservative Party, no one had any idea where the telephone was or the number of a taxi company or even how to make a call unless there was a SPAD available. 

fatcat posted:

Huge posted:

Resurrection posted:

Yes, when I voted for the Conservatives last year it certainly wasn’t for the Conservatives that are currently overstaying their welcome in Westminster. I really think we should have a rewind on 2017 with a thorough investigation into May’s leadership, decision making processes and her congenital need to appease everyone but the British people. If necessary, and the prevalent polls look positive, with a completely new leader and the removal of all Remainers, we should rerun the General Election. How’s about that then, as someone who is thankfully not around any more used to say. 

Followed immediately by a rewind of 2016 and a rerun of the brexit referendum of course!

No need to have a re-un of the referendum, there’s no point. It’s been proven the UK can’t leave the the EU without catastrophic economic consequenses.

The only option - Cancel Brexit.

You know it makes sense.

 

Oh, you’re such a tease fatcat, but I like you! Now, who used to say that?

Cheer up, Resurrection, and get behind England in the World Cup. Looks like the only bit of good news the country is getting   

MDS posted:

Cheer up, Resurrection, and get behind England in the World Cup. Looks like the only bit of good news the country is getting   

Much to the horror of some of my Scottish family and friends I am fully behind England in the World Cup. I like the team, their manager and the lack of egos. ????

I see another Brexiteer has been chosen to succeed Davis: Raab. Not sure how that's going to help.

It will be interesting to see how Barnier and co respond to the detail of the agreement outlined at Cabinet on Friday. Behind the scenes they are probably rolling on the floor laughing at the chaos within the UK's Cabinet but the EU will put on a professional and serious face publicly.

I know many people feel that the EU holds all the cards. I definitely think the EU hold a much stronger hand but there are three areas where the UK has some leverage:

(i) the EU exports more goods to the UK than the UK exports to it, so the EU will want to protect its trade balance

(ii) the UK is a heavy-weight on military and security matters. The EU will not want to weaken the support it enjoys from the UK; and

(iii) the UK is a net contributor to the EU budget. Money always talks.

So we have something with which to negotiate.

BBC is reporting today that No 10 is reaching out to opposition MPs.  Looks like the PM is trying to build a parliamentary consensus for her proposals. Sensible, as it could weaken the power of the Brexiteers. It will be interesting to see how Corbyn reacts to this. On the one hand he will be enjoying the discomfort of the Conservatives but on the other he is also conflicted and so would probably like to stay quiet on his own policies and just throw stones at May.

Resurrection posted:

MDS posted:

Cheer up, Resurrection, and get behind England in the World Cup. Looks like the only bit of good news the country is getting   

Much to the horror of some of my Scottish family and friends I am fully behind England in the World Cup. I like the team, their manager and the lack of egos. ????

Good man! 

I very much agree about the lack of egos. Refreshing.

Resurrection posted:

Huge posted:

Resurrection posted:

Yes, when I voted for the Conservatives last year it certainly wasn’t for the Conservatives that are currently overstaying their welcome in Westminster. I really think we should have a rewind on 2017 with a thorough investigation into May’s leadership, decision making processes and her congenital need to appease everyone but the British people. If necessary, and the prevalent polls look positive, with a completely new leader and the removal of all Remainers, we should rerun the General Election. How’s about that then, as someone who is thankfully not around any more used to say. 

Followed immediately by a rewind of 2016 and a rerun of the brexit referendum of course!

The hopelessness of our current situation defies me finding words momentarily! All I can say is that on one hand and one end of the spectrum we had Margaret Thatcher while at the complete opposite we have Theresa May, and to my utter shame, as a Scotsman, how could my country have produced such an unedifying jellyfish as Gove? 

Well, unless I misinterpreted your worms, ... then in relation to the previous post, that seems to be a complete non-sequiter!

Huge posted:

Resurrection posted:

Huge posted:

Resurrection posted:

Yes, when I voted for the Conservatives last year it certainly wasn’t for the Conservatives that are currently overstaying their welcome in Westminster. I really think we should have a rewind on 2017 with a thorough investigation into May’s leadership, decision making processes and her congenital need to appease everyone but the British people. If necessary, and the prevalent polls look positive, with a completely new leader and the removal of all Remainers, we should rerun the General Election. How’s about that then, as someone who is thankfully not around any more used to say. 

Followed immediately by a rewind of 2016 and a rerun of the brexit referendum of course!

The hopelessness of our current situation defies me finding words momentarily! All I can say is that on one hand and one end of the spectrum we had Margaret Thatcher while at the complete opposite we have Theresa May, and to my utter shame, as a Scotsman, how could my country have produced such an unedifying jellyfish as Gove? 

Well, unless I misinterpreted your worms, ... then in relation to the previous post, that seems to be a complete non-sequiter!

Huge, you don't always have to take everything I say as the gospel according to RR. Some things I say in jest and others, such as Gove and May, I am deadly serious. And, to add to the fun, I will get back to eating my 'worms'.

Resurrection posted:

Huge, you don't always have to take everything I say as the gospel according to RR. Some things I say in jest and others, such as Gove and May, I am deadly serious. And, to add to the fun, I will get back to eating my 'worms'.

I had already noted that everything you say about a confirmatory referendum,  the “People’s Vote” petition and believing in democracy are in jest. Probably Brexit, too...

Dexit then Bexit! Boris gone. What a farce this whole escapade has become.

Mexit next?

G

Innocent Bystander posted:

Resurrection posted:

Huge, you don't always have to take everything I say as the gospel according to RR. Some things I say in jest and others, such as Gove and May, I am deadly serious. And, to add to the fun, I will get back to eating my 'worms'.

I had already noted that everything you say about a confirmatory referendum,  the “People’s Vote” petition and believing in democracy are in jest. Probably Brexit, too...

Never Brexit - And now Boris, the opportunist, is gone.

Well Boris will probably be of more use laying in front of bull-dozers at Heathrow, as he has promised to do. 

Resurrection posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

Resurrection posted:

Huge, you don't always have to take everything I say as the gospel according to RR. Some things I say in jest and others, such as Gove and May, I am deadly serious. And, to add to the fun, I will get back to eating my 'worms'.

I had already noted that everything you say about a confirmatory referendum,  the “People’s Vote” petition and believing in democracy are in jest. Probably Brexit, too...

Never Brexit - And now Boris, the opportunist, is gone.

Strangely, I do agree with you. No lover of Boris am I. He changes sides faster than he changes his partners.

Thought Corbyn's comment about Davis and Johnson delaying their resignations so that they could get government car rides home was rather good. 

Perhaps in all this disruption there are some signs of hope. Good luck.

So is Boris leaving a way of positioning himself because he thinks May will have to go?

I assume he does nothing without an 'angle' for his own advancement. Obviously his calculation is now that is is better not to be associated with May et al. Or maybe he thinks a softish, semi-firm Brexit is actually going to happen and he wants to have none of it?

Politics, schmolitics. none helps the negotiations that we desperately need to progress.

Surely every side of the Brexit argument views this as a total mess now. Is anyone 'winning'?

Bruce

Bruce Woodhouse posted:

So is Boris leaving a way of positioning himself because he thinks May will have to go?

I assume he does nothing without an 'angle' for his own advancement. Obviously his calculation is now that is is better not to be associated with May et al. Or maybe he thinks a softish, semi-firm Brexit is actually going to happen and he wants to have none of it?

Politics, schmolitics. none helps the negotiations that we desperately need to progress.

Surely every side of the Brexit argument views this as a total mess now. Is anyone 'winning'?

Bruce

What happens now is that we are in political free fall. May opportunistically got her job after Cameron's resignation after losing the seemingly unlosable. May then proceeded to appease everyone on the Remain side and Brussels while arrogantly believing that she could fool the Brexiteers all of the time, after all they were all swivel eyed loons.  

The loss of Johnson and Davis may give cheer to the Establishment Remainers but will simply incense the Brexiteers even more and gradually the numbers needed to call a challenge on May's leadership must be getting pretty close to the necessary 48. If you are a card carrying member of Momentum you may think your birthdays are all about to arrive but Corbyn is as unelectable now as he was last year. 

We new about to have political civil war of an unprecedented level in everyone's living memory. You don't like it, I don't like it but it will happen and it won't be just about he ins and outs of Brexit. There will be no peace in our time, and I sincerely mean that folks. 

Bruce Woodhouse posted:

So is Boris leaving a way of positioning himself because he thinks May will have to go?

Knowing him, he is Bruce. He has never acted out of principle, because he has no principles. He is an extreme and vacuous narcissist.

My guess that if he does make a bid for leadership, he will fail and that will be the end of his 'career' on frontline politics. So that's all for the good.

Huge posted:

Followed immediately by a rewind of 2016 and a rerun of the brexit referendum of course!

The elites and the army of Brussels delegates continue to try to figure out how to turn the clock back despite the very basic fact that the people have spoken.

This thread could largely read like the first half of HRC's book entitled, "What Happened."  I have a suggestion.  Since that title is already taken why don't all the Remoaner's publish this thread plus personal stories of woe under the title of "What Happened, Too."   Another choice could be, "The (Sleep-)Walking (out of Europe,) Dead."  If none of these titles float your boat, then why not a useless handbook called, "Remoaning for Dummies"

Who knows, it may even hit number one and outsell other great titles in the series?

For the titles and copyright, all I want out of this is enough to upgrade my system to a Statement level and a small island.  Then I could retire from being a political commentator and humorist and finely focus solely on music.  ;-)

Lastly, I think what the Remoaner's in the UK really need is the Remoaner equivalent cry (exorcism) of the following to bring you all together.  Maybe Theresa May could do the honours on her way out?  It would be cathartic, I'm hoping?  Just let it out....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLAZ4TS0-Y4

Resurrection posted:

Bruce Woodhouse posted:

So is Boris leaving a way of positioning himself because he thinks May will have to go?

I assume he does nothing without an 'angle' for his own advancement. Obviously his calculation is now that is is better not to be associated with May et al. Or maybe he thinks a softish, semi-firm Brexit is actually going to happen and he wants to have none of it?

Politics, schmolitics. none helps the negotiations that we desperately need to progress.

Surely every side of the Brexit argument views this as a total mess now. Is anyone 'winning'?

Bruce

What happens now is that we are in political free fall. May opportunistically got her job after Cameron's resignation after losing the seemingly unlosable. May then proceeded to appease everyone on the Remain side and Brussels while arrogantly believing that she could fool the Brexiteers all of the time, after all they were all swivel eyed loons.  

The loss of Johnson and Davis may give cheer to the Establishment Remainers but will simply incense the Brexiteers even more and gradually the numbers needed to call a challenge on May's leadership must be getting pretty close to the necessary 48. If you are a card carrying member of Momentum you may think your birthdays are all about to arrive but Corbyn is as unelectable now as he was last year. 

We new about to have political civil war of an unprecedented level in everyone's living memory. You don't like it, I don't like it but it will happen and it won't be just about he ins and outs of Brexit. There will be no peace in our time, and I sincerely mean that folks. 

For once we are in total agreement - which is both shocking and sad!