Are we sleep-walking out of Europe ?

Florestan posted:

Huge posted:

Followed immediately by a rewind of 2016 and a rerun of the brexit referendum of course!

The elites and the army of Brussels delegates continue to try to figure out how to turn the clock back despite the very basic fact that the people have spoken.

This thread could largely read like the first half of HRC's book entitled, "What Happened."  I have a suggestion.  Since that title is already taken why don't all the Remoaner's publish this thread plus personal stories of woe under the title of "What Happened, Too."   Another choice could be, "The (Sleep-)Walking (out of Europe,) Dead."  If none of these titles float your boat, then why not a useless handbook called, "Remoaning for Dummies"

Who knows, it may even hit number one and outsell other great titles in the series?

For the titles and copyright, all I want out of this is enough to upgrade my system to a Statement level and a small island.  Then I could retire from being a political commentator and humorist and finely focus solely on music.  ;-)

Lastly, I think what the Remoaner's in the UK really need is the Remoaner equivalent cry (exorcism) of the following to bring you all together.  Maybe Theresa May could do the honours on her way out?  It would be cathartic, I'm hoping?  Just let it out....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLAZ4TS0-Y4

Ha! Ha! Brilliant!

So there you have it, busted flush Brexit is a complete failure.

simply toss it in the historical wheelie bin of really dum ideas,

and let's get on with being a nation state within the EU  - which is what most people in the UK really want anyway.

Debs

naim_nymph posted:

So there you have it, busted flush Brexit is a complete failure.

simply toss it in the historical wheelie bin of really dum ideas,

and let's get on with being a nation state within the EU  - which is what most people in the UK really want anyway.

Debs

 

Err speak for yourself, Debs. the only things I want in a dustbin are the EU, Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn. The fun has just begun.

Giant dead parrot found in UK. Species 'Psitticus Brexitus'.

Scientists insist it's dead & won't fly. Gvmt say "the people" demand it flies.

naim_nymph posted:

and let's get on with being a nation state within the EU  - which is what most people in the UK really want anyway.

One slight flaw with that proposal, Debs. The EU doesn't like nation states. It has spent the best part of a quarter of a century trying to eradicate them.

The EU as it is currently structured is untenable anyway, and will collapse within 30-50 years if it does not reform itself and abandon its dogmatic adherance to its 'rules'. So even those as dogmatic and dense as Verhofstadt and Juncker will see that change is the only way they can hold onto their taxpayer-funded sinecures and fat pensions and change will come. 

So I hope we see the return of an EEC-style entity which will allow the nation states of Europe to trade and co-operate freely without having to submit to the yoke of an absurd and unaccountable bureaucracy.

Kevin-W posted:

Bruce Woodhouse posted:

So is Boris leaving a way of positioning himself because he thinks May will have to go?

Knowing him, he is Bruce. He has never acted out of principle, because he has no principles. He is an extreme and vacuous narcissist.

My guess that if he does make a bid for leadership, he will fail and that will be the end of his 'career' on frontline politics. So that's all for the good.

Oh, I very much hope so.

Resurrection posted:

Bruce Woodhouse posted:

So is Boris leaving a way of positioning himself because he thinks May will have to go?

I assume he does nothing without an 'angle' for his own advancement. Obviously his calculation is now that is is better not to be associated with May et al. Or maybe he thinks a softish, semi-firm Brexit is actually going to happen and he wants to have none of it?

Politics, schmolitics. none helps the negotiations that we desperately need to progress.

Surely every side of the Brexit argument views this as a total mess now. Is anyone 'winning'?

Bruce

What happens now is that we are in political free fall. May opportunistically got her job after Cameron's resignation after losing the seemingly unlosable. May then proceeded to appease everyone on the Remain side and Brussels while arrogantly believing that she could fool the Brexiteers all of the time, after all they were all swivel eyed loons.  

The loss of Johnson and Davis may give cheer to the Establishment Remainers but will simply incense the Brexiteers even more and gradually the numbers needed to call a challenge on May's leadership must be getting pretty close to the necessary 48. If you are a card carrying member of Momentum you may think your birthdays are all about to arrive but Corbyn is as unelectable now as he was last year. 

We new about to have political civil war of an unprecedented level in everyone's living memory. You don't like it, I don't like it but it will happen and it won't be just about he ins and outs of Brexit. There will be no peace in our time, and I sincerely mean that folks. 

Depressing as that prospect might be, I fear you might be right. I would have no confidence in a government lead by Corbyn doing any better on Brexit, and maybe quite a lot worse.

Kevin-W posted:

naim_nymph posted:

.

So I hope we see the return of an EEC-style entity which will allow the nation states of Europe to trade and co-operate freely without having to submit to the yoke of an absurd and unaccountable bureaucracy.

There might have been a chance for had if the UK remained a member of the EU. We have long been a force of reform and change within the EU. I can't see Germany or France leading such a reform so I really can't see where the impetus for that is going to come from. It won't come from the electorates of member states because, unlike the foolish Cameron, I can't see any political leaders of the big member states allowing a referendum on EU membership. And I say 'big' because I couldn't rule out Greece doing something like this on the mistaken belief that it would ease its financial problems.    

UK could just apply  to join the United States of America - after all, that is the direction the right wingers seem to lean.  Then Mr T could rule (and the A team?j May, Corbyn and all the rest of the useless British Parliament (apologies to the very few to whom that might not apply) could be put out to pasture, and we can all start to spell colour without a u, add 10 to got, legalise the guns that seem to be too readily available on our streets, have a party every 4th July in a way 5th November never really happens...

Innocent Bystander posted:

UK could just apply  to join the United States of America - after all, that is the direction the right wingers seem to lean.  Then Mr T could rule (and the A team?j May, Corbyn and all the rest of the useless British Parliament (apologies to the very few to whom that might not apply) could be put out to pasture, and we can all start to spell colour without a u, add 10 to got, legalise the guns that seem to be too readily available on our streets, have a party every 4th July in a way 5th November never really happens...

...and it would solve the NHS/social care funding crisis. 

Boris's resignation letter now out. Will likely inflame the hard Brexiteers.  It also looks to me to be a pretty thinly disguised dig at the PM's leadership. He's positioning himself alright.   

MDS posted:

There might have been a chance for had if the UK remained a member of the EU. We have long been a force of reform and change within the EU. I can't see Germany or France leading such a reform so I really can't see where the impetus for that is going to come from. It won't come from the electorates of member states because, unlike the foolish Cameron, I can't see any political leaders of the big member states allowing a referendum on EU membership. And I say 'big' because I couldn't rule out Greece doing something like this on the mistaken belief that it would ease its financial problems.    

There is an assumption that the EU is a static, eternally unchanging organisation. It is not, and, like any other entity, if it does not learn how to adapt to change, it will die.

And change will come...

First of all, the EU - and its member states - are riven with disunity.

The French, for example, especially under the ambitious Macron, would love Germany and Mutti Merkel to stumble so that they can assume pre-eminence within the bloc.

There are rumblings of discontent, particularly among the Visegrád Group and the Italians and Greeks, but the Danes, Dutch and Swedes all have growing EU-rosceptic movements. Mass immigration - and the near-universal hostility to it across Europe - will need to be dealt with, which means that one of the so-called 'four freedoms' (freedom of movement, which is no freedom at all, but is instead merely the officially sanctioned commodification of labour for the benefit of international capitalism) will eventually have to be abandoned.

The project of ever-further integration may also have to be abandoned as the wider populace, sensing that their freedom, sovereignty, independence and cultural distinctiveness are under threat, start to revolt.

Despite the deluded thinking of the EU overlords and their Remainiac lickspittles, these movements will all need to be mollified at some point, wether Brussels/Strasbourg or national governments want to do so or not.

This is why the EU is so afraid of letting the UK go without a fight. If it goes reasonably well, others may follow and that, in the minds of the EU's political class is just not acceptable.

Then there's the UK. It's is the second-biggest economy in the EU, and if it eventually leaves, it will have a profound effect on the way the bloc operates. With a $2.6 trillion hole in its overall GDP, the EU will have to change.

If Blighty leaves with 'no deal' the effect on the 27 members left behind will be almost as catastrophic for them as it would be for the UK. Those remainiacs cheering a UK no deal economic meltdown would do well to be careful what they wish for.  The economic fortunes of the EU and the UK will be closely intertwined even after Brexit.

If you read your post, Mike, it in a way demonstrates everything that's wrong with the EU. Currently it has shown its unwillingness to reform, but once extrernal (and internal) pressures begin to tell, reform and change it will.

Resurrection posted:

naim_nymph posted:

 

and let's get on with being a nation state within the EU  - which is what most people in the UK really want anyway.

Err speak for yourself, Debs. the only things I want in a dustbin are the EU, Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn. The fun has just begun.

I suspect Debs wasn’t including you in “most people” Ressurrection!

Florestan posted:

Huge posted:

Followed immediately by a rewind of 2016 and a rerun of the brexit referendum of course!

...

Lastly, I think what the Remoaner's in the UK really need is the Remoaner equivalent cry (exorcism) of the following to bring you all together.  Maybe Theresa May could do the honours on her way out?  It would be cathartic, I'm hoping?  Just let it out....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLAZ4TS0-Y4

Since you are American I shall assume that you don't realise how offensive the term Remoaner is, and ask you to desist form using it.

naim_nymph posted:

Giant dead parrot found in UK. Species 'Psitticus Brexitus'.

Scientists insist it's dead & won't fly. Gvmt say "the people" demand it flies.

 

It's the Norwegian option!

Eloise posted:

Resurrection posted:

naim_nymph posted:

 

and let's get on with being a nation state within the EU  - which is what most people in the UK really want anyway.

Err speak for yourself, Debs. the only things I want in a dustbin are the EU, Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn. The fun has just begun.

I suspect Debs wasn’t including you in “most people” Ressurrection!

Well, not like Debs anyway or any other Remainer.

Huge posted:

Florestan posted:

Huge posted:

Followed immediately by a rewind of 2016 and a rerun of the brexit referendum of course!

...

Lastly, I think what the Remoaner's in the UK really need is the Remoaner equivalent cry (exorcism) of the following to bring you all together.  Maybe Theresa May could do the honours on her way out?  It would be cathartic, I'm hoping?  Just let it out....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLAZ4TS0-Y4

Since you are American I shall assume that you don't realise how offensive the term Remoaner is, and ask you to desist form using it.

Yes, only one way vitriol allowed here. ????

Huge posted:

naim_nymph posted:

Giant dead parrot found in UK. Species 'Psitticus Brexitus'.

Scientists insist it's dead & won't fly. Gvmt say "the people" demand it flies.

 

It's the Norwegian option!

And it’s blue!

G

Nice one Huge. I liked your 2 cows dit last week too. 

From BBC site, a tweet by Simon Pegg:

By Sunday, England may be coming home with a Trophy.

and no Cabinet.

Huge posted:

Florestan posted:

Huge posted:

Followed immediately by a rewind of 2016 and a rerun of the brexit referendum of course!

...

Lastly, I think what the Remoaner's in the UK really need is the Remoaner equivalent cry (exorcism) of the following to bring you all together.  Maybe Theresa May could do the honours on her way out?  It would be cathartic, I'm hoping?  Just let it out....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLAZ4TS0-Y4

Since you are American I shall assume that you don't realise how offensive the term Remoaner is, and ask you to desist form using it.

Not offensive to me, Huge. I believe Brexit to be the stupidest idea I have seen a UK government take in my lifetime and I reserve the right to 'moan' about for the rest of my days.  

Kevin-W posted:

MDS posted:

There might have been a chance for had if the UK remained a member of the EU. We have long been a force of reform and change within the EU. I can't see Germany or France leading such a reform so I really can't see where the impetus for that is going to come from. It won't come from the electorates of member states because, unlike the foolish Cameron, I can't see any political leaders of the big member states allowing a referendum on EU membership. And I say 'big' because I couldn't rule out Greece doing something like this on the mistaken belief that it would ease its financial problems.    

There is an assumption that the EU is a static, eternally unchanging organisation. It is not, and, like any other entity, if it does not learn how to adapt to change, it will die.

And change will come...

First of all, the EU - and its member states - are riven with disunity.

The French, for example, especially under the ambitious Macron, would love Germany and Mutti Merkel to stumble so that they can assume pre-eminence within the bloc.

There are rumblings of discontent, particularly among the Visegrád Group and the Italians and Greeks, but the Danes, Dutch and Swedes all have growing EU-rosceptic movements. Mass immigration - and the near-universal hostility to it across Europe - will need to be dealt with, which means that one of the so-called 'four freedoms' (freedom of movement, which is no freedom at all, but is instead merely the officially sanctioned commodification of labour for the benefit of international capitalism) will eventually have to be abandoned.

The project of ever-further integration may also have to be abandoned as the wider populace, sensing that their freedom, sovereignty, independence and cultural distinctiveness are under threat, start to revolt.

Despite the deluded thinking of the EU overlords and their Remainiac lickspittles, these movements will all need to be mollified at some point, wether Brussels/Strasbourg or national governments want to do so or not.

This is why the EU is so afraid of letting the UK go without a fight. If it goes reasonably well, others may follow and that, in the minds of the EU's political class is just not acceptable.

Then there's the UK. It's is the second-biggest economy in the EU, and if it eventually leaves, it will have a profound effect on the way the bloc operates. With a $2.6 trillion hole in its overall GDP, the EU will have to change.

If Blighty leaves with 'no deal' the effect on the 27 members left behind will be almost as catastrophic for them as it would be for the UK. Those remainiacs cheering a UK no deal economic meltdown would do well to be careful what they wish for.  The economic fortunes of the EU and the UK will be closely intertwined even after Brexit.

If you read your post, Mike, it in a way demonstrates everything that's wrong with the EU. Currently it has shown its unwillingness to reform, but once extrernal (and internal) pressures begin to tell, reform and change it will.

It wasn't my assumption that the EU is static, Kevin. I have seen some very big changes e.g. the completion of the Single Market in 1992 and the introduction of the Euro. And then there's the continual expansion in membership. That said, I recognise the force in many of your arguments.  There is a strong self-serving instinct among some of those at the top and a desire to continue to drive forward political integration which increasingly detached from the views of their electorate. But, and perhaps this is where we differ, I continue to believe that the concept of the EU was more than about free-trade. For the original architects it was also about building a Europe that would never again suffer the ravages of war.  The populations of much of continental Europe suffered foreign occupancy, starvation and destruction on an appalling scale. We in the 'victorious' UK suffered of course but not to the same extent, and enabled us to continue to look at continental Europe as something geographically close but still very foreign. I believe we here in the UK underestimate the feeling in continental Europe to preserve the mechanism that has preserved the peace and brought to most member states huge infrastructure development and economic advance. I'm not saying that the UK's departure form the EU will threaten that but I believe that the EU concept continues to have an essentially noble intent and ambition which on the whole has been hugely successful.   I shall be very sorry to see us walk away from it.     

Huge posted:

Florestan posted:

Huge posted:

Followed immediately by a rewind of 2016 and a rerun of the brexit referendum of course!

...

Lastly, I think what the Remoaner's in the UK really need is the Remoaner equivalent cry (exorcism) of the following to bring you all together.  Maybe Theresa May could do the honours on her way out?  It would be cathartic, I'm hoping?  Just let it out....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLAZ4TS0-Y4

Since you are American I shall assume that you don't realise how offensive the term Remoaner is, and ask you to desist form using it.

You are assuming too much. Florestan is not an American.

I'm from the continent - but my family runs a (very nice) pub in Essex. They scratch their heads already how to get good personnel after Brexit.

So May and the (what’s left of) cabinet’s proposal from Friday... is that’s whats known as staying in by the back door?

And another thing, I note today May has done the impossible in finding common ground in Davis and Barnier... with both of them she has used statements similar to “I do not agree with your characterisation of the policy”.