Are we sleep-walking out of Europe ?

Innocent Bystander posted:

UK could just apply  to join the United States of America - after all, that is the direction the right wingers seem to lean.  Then Mr T could rule (and the A team?j May, Corbyn and all the rest of the useless British Parliament (apologies to the very few to whom that might not apply) could be put out to pasture, and we can all start to spell colour without a u, add 10 to got, legalise the guns that seem to be too readily available on our streets, have a party every 4th July in a way 5th November never really happens...

...and it would solve the NHS/social care funding crisis. 

Boris's resignation letter now out. Will likely inflame the hard Brexiteers.  It also looks to me to be a pretty thinly disguised dig at the PM's leadership. He's positioning himself alright.   

MDS posted:

There might have been a chance for had if the UK remained a member of the EU. We have long been a force of reform and change within the EU. I can't see Germany or France leading such a reform so I really can't see where the impetus for that is going to come from. It won't come from the electorates of member states because, unlike the foolish Cameron, I can't see any political leaders of the big member states allowing a referendum on EU membership. And I say 'big' because I couldn't rule out Greece doing something like this on the mistaken belief that it would ease its financial problems.    

There is an assumption that the EU is a static, eternally unchanging organisation. It is not, and, like any other entity, if it does not learn how to adapt to change, it will die.

And change will come...

First of all, the EU - and its member states - are riven with disunity.

The French, for example, especially under the ambitious Macron, would love Germany and Mutti Merkel to stumble so that they can assume pre-eminence within the bloc.

There are rumblings of discontent, particularly among the Visegrád Group and the Italians and Greeks, but the Danes, Dutch and Swedes all have growing EU-rosceptic movements. Mass immigration - and the near-universal hostility to it across Europe - will need to be dealt with, which means that one of the so-called 'four freedoms' (freedom of movement, which is no freedom at all, but is instead merely the officially sanctioned commodification of labour for the benefit of international capitalism) will eventually have to be abandoned.

The project of ever-further integration may also have to be abandoned as the wider populace, sensing that their freedom, sovereignty, independence and cultural distinctiveness are under threat, start to revolt.

Despite the deluded thinking of the EU overlords and their Remainiac lickspittles, these movements will all need to be mollified at some point, wether Brussels/Strasbourg or national governments want to do so or not.

This is why the EU is so afraid of letting the UK go without a fight. If it goes reasonably well, others may follow and that, in the minds of the EU's political class is just not acceptable.

Then there's the UK. It's is the second-biggest economy in the EU, and if it eventually leaves, it will have a profound effect on the way the bloc operates. With a $2.6 trillion hole in its overall GDP, the EU will have to change.

If Blighty leaves with 'no deal' the effect on the 27 members left behind will be almost as catastrophic for them as it would be for the UK. Those remainiacs cheering a UK no deal economic meltdown would do well to be careful what they wish for.  The economic fortunes of the EU and the UK will be closely intertwined even after Brexit.

If you read your post, Mike, it in a way demonstrates everything that's wrong with the EU. Currently it has shown its unwillingness to reform, but once extrernal (and internal) pressures begin to tell, reform and change it will.

Resurrection posted:

naim_nymph posted:

 

and let's get on with being a nation state within the EU  - which is what most people in the UK really want anyway.

Err speak for yourself, Debs. the only things I want in a dustbin are the EU, Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn. The fun has just begun.

I suspect Debs wasn’t including you in “most people” Ressurrection!

Florestan posted:

Huge posted:

Followed immediately by a rewind of 2016 and a rerun of the brexit referendum of course!

...

Lastly, I think what the Remoaner's in the UK really need is the Remoaner equivalent cry (exorcism) of the following to bring you all together.  Maybe Theresa May could do the honours on her way out?  It would be cathartic, I'm hoping?  Just let it out....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLAZ4TS0-Y4

Since you are American I shall assume that you don't realise how offensive the term Remoaner is, and ask you to desist form using it.

naim_nymph posted:

Giant dead parrot found in UK. Species 'Psitticus Brexitus'.

Scientists insist it's dead & won't fly. Gvmt say "the people" demand it flies.

 

It's the Norwegian option!

Eloise posted:

Resurrection posted:

naim_nymph posted:

 

and let's get on with being a nation state within the EU  - which is what most people in the UK really want anyway.

Err speak for yourself, Debs. the only things I want in a dustbin are the EU, Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn. The fun has just begun.

I suspect Debs wasn’t including you in “most people” Ressurrection!

Well, not like Debs anyway or any other Remainer.

Huge posted:

Florestan posted:

Huge posted:

Followed immediately by a rewind of 2016 and a rerun of the brexit referendum of course!

...

Lastly, I think what the Remoaner's in the UK really need is the Remoaner equivalent cry (exorcism) of the following to bring you all together.  Maybe Theresa May could do the honours on her way out?  It would be cathartic, I'm hoping?  Just let it out....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLAZ4TS0-Y4

Since you are American I shall assume that you don't realise how offensive the term Remoaner is, and ask you to desist form using it.

Yes, only one way vitriol allowed here. ????

Huge posted:

naim_nymph posted:

Giant dead parrot found in UK. Species 'Psitticus Brexitus'.

Scientists insist it's dead & won't fly. Gvmt say "the people" demand it flies.

 

It's the Norwegian option!

And it’s blue!

G

Nice one Huge. I liked your 2 cows dit last week too. 

From BBC site, a tweet by Simon Pegg:

By Sunday, England may be coming home with a Trophy.

and no Cabinet.

Huge posted:

Florestan posted:

Huge posted:

Followed immediately by a rewind of 2016 and a rerun of the brexit referendum of course!

...

Lastly, I think what the Remoaner's in the UK really need is the Remoaner equivalent cry (exorcism) of the following to bring you all together.  Maybe Theresa May could do the honours on her way out?  It would be cathartic, I'm hoping?  Just let it out....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLAZ4TS0-Y4

Since you are American I shall assume that you don't realise how offensive the term Remoaner is, and ask you to desist form using it.

Not offensive to me, Huge. I believe Brexit to be the stupidest idea I have seen a UK government take in my lifetime and I reserve the right to 'moan' about for the rest of my days.  

Kevin-W posted:

MDS posted:

There might have been a chance for had if the UK remained a member of the EU. We have long been a force of reform and change within the EU. I can't see Germany or France leading such a reform so I really can't see where the impetus for that is going to come from. It won't come from the electorates of member states because, unlike the foolish Cameron, I can't see any political leaders of the big member states allowing a referendum on EU membership. And I say 'big' because I couldn't rule out Greece doing something like this on the mistaken belief that it would ease its financial problems.    

There is an assumption that the EU is a static, eternally unchanging organisation. It is not, and, like any other entity, if it does not learn how to adapt to change, it will die.

And change will come...

First of all, the EU - and its member states - are riven with disunity.

The French, for example, especially under the ambitious Macron, would love Germany and Mutti Merkel to stumble so that they can assume pre-eminence within the bloc.

There are rumblings of discontent, particularly among the Visegrád Group and the Italians and Greeks, but the Danes, Dutch and Swedes all have growing EU-rosceptic movements. Mass immigration - and the near-universal hostility to it across Europe - will need to be dealt with, which means that one of the so-called 'four freedoms' (freedom of movement, which is no freedom at all, but is instead merely the officially sanctioned commodification of labour for the benefit of international capitalism) will eventually have to be abandoned.

The project of ever-further integration may also have to be abandoned as the wider populace, sensing that their freedom, sovereignty, independence and cultural distinctiveness are under threat, start to revolt.

Despite the deluded thinking of the EU overlords and their Remainiac lickspittles, these movements will all need to be mollified at some point, wether Brussels/Strasbourg or national governments want to do so or not.

This is why the EU is so afraid of letting the UK go without a fight. If it goes reasonably well, others may follow and that, in the minds of the EU's political class is just not acceptable.

Then there's the UK. It's is the second-biggest economy in the EU, and if it eventually leaves, it will have a profound effect on the way the bloc operates. With a $2.6 trillion hole in its overall GDP, the EU will have to change.

If Blighty leaves with 'no deal' the effect on the 27 members left behind will be almost as catastrophic for them as it would be for the UK. Those remainiacs cheering a UK no deal economic meltdown would do well to be careful what they wish for.  The economic fortunes of the EU and the UK will be closely intertwined even after Brexit.

If you read your post, Mike, it in a way demonstrates everything that's wrong with the EU. Currently it has shown its unwillingness to reform, but once extrernal (and internal) pressures begin to tell, reform and change it will.

It wasn't my assumption that the EU is static, Kevin. I have seen some very big changes e.g. the completion of the Single Market in 1992 and the introduction of the Euro. And then there's the continual expansion in membership. That said, I recognise the force in many of your arguments.  There is a strong self-serving instinct among some of those at the top and a desire to continue to drive forward political integration which increasingly detached from the views of their electorate. But, and perhaps this is where we differ, I continue to believe that the concept of the EU was more than about free-trade. For the original architects it was also about building a Europe that would never again suffer the ravages of war.  The populations of much of continental Europe suffered foreign occupancy, starvation and destruction on an appalling scale. We in the 'victorious' UK suffered of course but not to the same extent, and enabled us to continue to look at continental Europe as something geographically close but still very foreign. I believe we here in the UK underestimate the feeling in continental Europe to preserve the mechanism that has preserved the peace and brought to most member states huge infrastructure development and economic advance. I'm not saying that the UK's departure form the EU will threaten that but I believe that the EU concept continues to have an essentially noble intent and ambition which on the whole has been hugely successful.   I shall be very sorry to see us walk away from it.     

Huge posted:

Florestan posted:

Huge posted:

Followed immediately by a rewind of 2016 and a rerun of the brexit referendum of course!

...

Lastly, I think what the Remoaner's in the UK really need is the Remoaner equivalent cry (exorcism) of the following to bring you all together.  Maybe Theresa May could do the honours on her way out?  It would be cathartic, I'm hoping?  Just let it out....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLAZ4TS0-Y4

Since you are American I shall assume that you don't realise how offensive the term Remoaner is, and ask you to desist form using it.

You are assuming too much. Florestan is not an American.

I'm from the continent - but my family runs a (very nice) pub in Essex. They scratch their heads already how to get good personnel after Brexit.

So May and the (what’s left of) cabinet’s proposal from Friday... is that’s whats known as staying in by the back door?

And another thing, I note today May has done the impossible in finding common ground in Davis and Barnier... with both of them she has used statements similar to “I do not agree with your characterisation of the policy”.

Eloise posted:

So May and the (what’s left of) cabinet’s proposal from Friday... is that’s whats known as staying in by the back door?

And another thing, I note today May has done the impossible in finding common ground in Davis and Barnier... with both of them she has used statements similar to “I do not agree with your characterisation of the policy”.

TM is at least very more polite than Boris 

Hunt appointed Foreign secretary. It's not getting any easier for Today programme presenters.

Christopher_M posted:

Hunt appointed Foreign secretary. It's not getting any easier for Today programme presenters.

Christopher_M posted:

Hunt appointed Foreign secretary. 

Forgetting brexit for a moment,  I hope one JH's first priorities is to get over to Iran straighten out the mess that Boris has left.  Not least is the gaff & a half that he should have been sacked for on the spot when his mouth took over his brain (again) with the totally unnecessary & inappropriate suggestion to the HoC that Nazanin Zaghari Ratcliffe had been in Iran training journalists.

Christopher_M posted:

Hunt appointed Foreign secretary. It's not getting any easier for Today programme presenters.

The problem isn’t that it’s hard for Today presenters... the problem is when they don’t make it hard for government ministers...

Mike-B posted:

Christopher_M posted:

Hunt appointed Foreign secretary. 

Forgetting brexit for a moment,  I hope one JH's first priorities is to get over to Iran straighten out the mess that Boris has left.  Not least is the gaff & a half that he should have been sacked for on the spot when his mouth took over his brain (again) with the totally unnecessary & inappropriate suggestion to the HoC that Nazanin Zaghari Ratcliffe had been in Iran training journalists.

Hmmm - would imagine he'll be somewhat less embarrassing, though that's not exactly hard. Has a tendency though to go off-brief - witness his lectures to Airbus et al about making inappropriate demands that the UK should provide a stable business environment - based no doubt on his considerable experience as a captain of industry. Sorry, that should be as a third rate administrator responsible for managing the NHS into the ground...

Agree wholeheartedly though the way that BJ handled the Nazanin Zaghari Ratcliffe issue was a complete fur cup, and JH would certainly burnish his credentials if he could extract her from Iran, without immense tradeoffs. 

Christopher_M posted:

From BBC site, a tweet by Simon Pegg:

By Sunday, England may be coming home with a Trophy.

and no Cabinet.

Excellent!

Also, says a lot when I am reading this forum to find out what is happening back in the UK whilst my flight back to Leeds is delayed 6 hours (ETD Noel 03:45) 

Richard

MDS posted:

Huge posted:

Florestan posted:

Huge posted:

Followed immediately by a rewind of 2016 and a rerun of the brexit referendum of course!

...

Lastly, I think what the Remoaner's in the UK really need is the Remoaner equivalent cry (exorcism) of the following to bring you all together.  Maybe Theresa May could do the honours on her way out?  It would be cathartic, I'm hoping?  Just let it out....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLAZ4TS0-Y4

Since you are American I shall assume that you don't realise how offensive the term Remoaner is, and ask you to desist form using it.

Not offensive to me, Huge. I believe Brexit to be the stupidest idea I have seen a UK government take in my lifetime and I reserve the right to 'moan' about for the rest of my days.  

Remoan Means Remoan!  

Could it be that May is a Blair's secret agent, who is planted to sabotage Brexit?