Are we sleep-walking out of Europe ?

The notification pasted below, probably suggests to some Brexiteers (and I don't blame them) that the sooner we extract ourselves from such gobbleygook the better.

But it isn't EU gobbleygook, it's UK CAA text and on careful reading, it does make sense. Up until now, the ICAO rules required pilots to hold licence(s) issued by the state in which their aircraft is registered. For example, I have both UK and Canadian licences. For the past 15 years the EU has been trying to standardise European licences and my UK issued EASA licence is good to fly EASA registered aircraft anywhere in the EU (+4) states. Many of us, including some airlines, thought our EASA licences were good to fly any EASA registered aircraft worldwide.

It seems that some Ramp Inspectors thought otherwise. ICAO has modified the rules in favour of the airlines, not the Ramp Inspectors. However, the EU has made it clear that only EU states are covered by the EASA RSOO Agreement, not the +4 (Iceland Norway etc).

Clearly the UK is included.................at present !

How many more "trivial" little issues like this, across the whole breadth of our everyday lives, need to be considered before we reach a "deal" with the EU or indeed will potentially screw us up on the 1st April 2019 ?

Automatic validation of UK flight crew licences issued in accordance with Commission Regulation (EU) 1178/2011 as amended

History

In response to several ramp inspections outside the territory of the European Union (EU)

Member States, when the flight crew members were found operating aircraft registered in a Member State other than the one that had issued their pilot licences, the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) has amended Annex 1 to the Chicago Convention on International Civil Aviation to cater for automatic validation of licences through Regional Safety Oversight Organizations (RSOOs) agreements.

The ICAO Amendment 174 to Annex 1 -Personnel Licensing-enables, within a group of States, the automatic validation of licences issued by any State of the group when those States are party to a formal agreement under common licensing regulations. Such formal agreements can be implemented in various regions and improve the mobility of licensed personnel. It can be introduced with the support of a regional safety oversight organization, as appropriate.

Those affected

All pilots holding a licence issued by the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland (the UK), in accordance with Commission Regulation (EU) 1178/2011 as amended, operating commercially for a European Operator, whose aircraft are on the register of a EU Member State which is also a member of the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA). A list of EASA Member States is available on its website.

It should be noted that Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway and Switzerland are excluded from the list, whilst they are member of EASA, they are not EU member States.

Actions for the CAA and licence holders

As of the 19th August 2018, the Civil Aviation Authority, will print on all EASA Part-FCL that it issues, this additional remark at Section XIII

“This licence is automatically validated as per the ICAO attachment to this licence”.

It is the responsibility of the individual licence holder to print off this attachment Automatic validation of Pilot licenses - ICAO registration number 5950, if operating an aircraft registered with another EU Member State, and to carry it with their licence document.

This Aeronautical Agreement facilitates the automatic validation of pilot licenses (Regulation (EC) No. 216/2008 of the European Parliament and of the Council on common rules in the field of aviation and establishing a European Aviation Safety Agency and the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union)

From Alex Edelman at the Edinburgh Fringe:

Why are they calling it Brexit when they could be calling it The Great British Break Off?

Florestan posted:

Was a million plus Syrian refugees into Germany considered 'free-movement?'

 

I don't know, but it was certainly a wonderful thing.

"Twit to Leave EU"

One of the Bath owls - and as tradition holds... a wise old owl!

HMG's new papers now reveal the most awful consequences of a no-deal Brexit. No, I don't mean the Chancellor's suggestion of an additional £80bn in borrowing, rather a shortage of sperm!

When the headline first caught my eye I wondered whether some official at the Department of Health was predicting that we male Remoaners would become so depressed that we would no longer be able to..............well, I'd best leave it there. But, no. It seems that we Brits don't meet the country's full need and those virile Danes make up the shortfall. However the importation of said Danish 'contribution' may get tied up in red-tape (ouch) leaving us short!

Upon learning this shocking revelation I frantically searched the rest of my newspaper seeking to find some contingency plan but found nothing. Surely in the face of this existential threat it's only fair to expect male Brexiteers to step-up and commit to filling the gap? Given his many children, Rees-Mogg looks to have it in him. So come on you Brexiteers, do your patriotic duty for Queen and Country.  What say you, Resurrection?

Florestan posted:

winkyincanada posted:

Florestan posted:

Was a million plus Syrian refugees into Germany considered 'free-movement?'

 

I don't know, but it was certainly a wonderful thing.

...and one other kooky person liked this statement even (...a wonderful thing)?

What is wonderful, Winky?  Are you celebrating the mass rapes and increases in crime and a general destruction and dismantling of a Western society and culture as a result of 'open borders'?

The facts as reported from January 2018 in the Irish Times (two snippets):

But Germany is traumatised by how its warm welcome for refugees was plunged into darkness two years ago with the mass groping and rape of young women at New Year’s Eve celebrations in Cologne and other cities. A series of terrorist attacks followed in the summer of 2016, some committed by asylum-seeking sympathisers of so-called Islamic State. Berlin’s Christmas market attack of December 2016, in which 12 died, exposed massive failings by politicians and police. Since then there has been a steady flow of young male asylum seekers and refugees involved in killings, rapes and thefts. The term “criminal foreigner” is now firmly cemented in public discourse and contributed to 12.6 per cent support for the far-right Alternative für Deutschland (AfD) last September.

First, the total number of asylum seekers in Germany by the end of 2016 was up 490 per cent compared with 2014. 
Almost 300,000 crimes (9 per cent of the total) were linked to refugees/asylum-seekers in 2016, up 42 per cent year-on-year. 
Federal statistics indicate that, of almost 4,000 rapes recorded in the years 2015 and 2016, the percentage of non-national perpetrators jumped in that time from 33 to 38 per cent. 
A new study this week showed that, in the two-year period to end-2016, the number of refugees in the state of Lower Saxony (population 7 million), jumped by 117 per cent to 163,000, while refugee crime suspects jumped by 242 per cent. Put another way, crimes with a refugee suspect jumped from four per cent in 2014 to 13 per cent two years later. 

I can only surmise that people who cheer the flooding of a country in a dramatic, uncontrolled way as with Germany is the SJW's way to virtue signal how righteous and unblemished the leftist vision is.  (but of course it is OK to hate whites !).  The problem is that these clueless eggheads vote and put clueless, kooky eggheads like them into government and of course these things are occurring.  Doesn't matter if these actions are reckless and irreversible and ultimately destroy the countries future.

Then you end up with an EU, UK, Britain, and USA as it is now and where it is heading to faster than anyone might believe.  And you poor, feckless UK men who want to remain in the EU to cover your sperm shortages.  What a sad lot and situation you are in.

I presume you disagree with winky ?

I don’t consider your evidence is sufficient to secure a conviction, in fact it’s severely limited. But somewhat aggressive and over-the-top when it comes to stating a disagreement.

From the same article:

How big is the problem?
Impossible to say, because of the sheer numbers and because Germany’s decentralised federal states have their own rules and methods of collating refugees and crimes, combined with a chronic inability to communicate with each other – and Berlin. Strict limits on what information police can release about crimes, suspects and victims has complicated matters further, as has a lack of clarity over just how many asylum seekers have vanished without trace. This has been a boon to populists who, in their social media echo chambers, suggest the subjective rise in refugee criminality is more accurate than the hard data.

MDS posted:

... a shortage of sperm!

....Surely in the face of this existential threat it's only fair to expect male Brexiteers to step-up and commit to filling the gap? Given his many children, Rees-Mogg looks to have it in him. So come on you Brexiteers, do your patriotic duty for Queen and Country.  

What say you, Resurrection?

In the, continuing, absence of rational debate on my part.

"What can I do to make light of this dull dull day?
What switch can I pull to illuminate the way?

Show me one direction
I will not question again
For a warm injection
Is all I need to calm the pain

We all need a love (Resurrection, just a little divine intervention)
We all need a love (Resurrection, just a little divine intervention)

What seed must I sow to replenish this barren land
Teach me to harvest, I want you to grow in my hand
Let's be optimistic, let's say that we won't toil in vain
If we pull together we'll never fall apart again

We all need a love (Resurrection, just a little divine intervention)
We all need a love (Resurrection, just a little divine intervention)
We need love

Resurrection
(We need a love)
Just a little divine (intervention)

Show me one direction
I will not question again, no, no
For a warm injection
Is all I need to calm the pain

We all need a love (Resurrection, just a little divine intervention)
We all need a love (Resurrection, just a little divine intervention)"

Not my words - I hasten to add,

John Galt  (who he?)

And sung, and I believe written (?) by one of my fave 80’s singers, Alison Moyet along with Tony Swain and Steve Jolley. 

I knew there must be a connection... Alison was born in Billericay in SE Essex.. a strong pro Brexit area I believe... I’m sure I’ll be corrected if wrong...

Brexit is very simple, if you think deeply about it, it is all about immigration, that is all.

Frank Yang posted:

Brexit is very simple, if you think deeply about it, it is all about immigration, that is all.

How can you possibly  know the thoughts and motives of nearly 20 million people.

There are some quite effective  anglers on this thread 

thebigfredc posted:

Frank Yang posted:

Brexit is very simple, if you think deeply about it, it is all about immigration, that is all.

How can you possibly  know the thoughts and motives of nearly 20 million people.

As I stated a few pages back, the PM is convinced that immigration was the single most important element behind the “Leave” vote.

so regardless of what c.20m people thought or motivated them, immigration will be top of the current list of Government thinking and action. Regardless of what the Government says or the media reports.

But for sure, the Gov will want the media to highlight immigration.

And in the meantime, while immigration from the EU has fallen somewhat, immigration from outside the EU has risen to compensate, and the overall level of immigration is slightly up.

So the ****ing idiots who voted for Brexit for the motives so amply demonstrated by Florestan above will probably believe it when they’re told that Brexit has had the effect they wanted. When in fact the effect seems likely to have increased the numbers of the kind of incomers they stupidly thought they were getting rid of (ie brown ones).

I can barely wait for the visionary ideological powerhouse that is TM’s team to get further stuck into the same topic. Utopia must be mere weeks away.

Can someone please help by giving us a big kick up our big fat arse ?

All this talk of immigration... to me for many it was a proxy for a feeling of not being in control. Interesting analysis this week about the relatively significant drop in Eastern Europeans remaining in the UK... sure a degree of leaving the EU uncertainty was cited, but interestingly not by any fellow  eastern Europeans interviewed on the programme I heard.. it was more that many have saved up enough money from working in the UK to move back, or have simply missed home (they are humans after all not machines...). Further the economies of many of these countries have improved, I guess a reason why they joined the EU in the first place, and so the feeling was there are  better and more attractive opportunities  at home or elsewhere rather than in the UK.

What concerns me, whether it’s Brexit or Remainer, as a nation we still seem to have a colonial exploitative attitude to much of the world.. ie we need it’s  cheap labour to subsidise our standard of living... well the rest of the world is catching up...we in the UK need to invest in training, automation etc.(is this one of the reasons why UK productivity is alarmingly low, and therefore wages are often low?) Is it surprising many people  educated and growing up in Britain have higher aspirations than labouring for  very little... we need to wake up to the fact that much of the world are having similar higher aspirations as well.. and we can’t continue to rely on and exploit them forever. They have their own countries and communities to develop and thrive in rather than prop us up offering cheap labour for ever..

Simon,

As a Remainer, I quite like the idea of freedom of movement throughout Europe. It gives 300 million people lots of aspirational opportunities. In fact, I quite like the idea of global freedom of movement for the same reason, but appreciate we have some way to go before that could be considered, never mind implemented.

I haven’t perceived any theme amongst my Remain associates that they somehow feel Remain guarantees access to cheap labour, whilst Brexit means an end to cheap labour. In fact. immigration isn’t an  issue for them.

Don, although immigration/emigration crosses both Remainer and Brexit debates... both arguments seems to advocate the opposing argument will harm access to cheap labour or cheaper professionals ... whether it be non EU labour in one camp or EU labour in another.

in an ideal world we want to have a like for like flow of people .. but alas it just doesn’t seem to be like this in the UK... we rely on other country’s cheaper labour and often cheaper professionalisms to prop us up whether it be working in  factories, picking fruit, supporting our National Health Service, developing some of our smart technologies, or cleaning our homes... and it feels predominately (though clearly not entirely) one way .. which feels unsustainable.... if we had equal numbers of people coming and going within these professions and roles then to me then that is entirely different and sustainable.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

All this talk of immigration... to me for many it was a proxy for a feeling of not being in control.

At heart, I felt it was about identity and its erosion. Seeing SO many voices being listened to - in implied preference to one's own.

But that is so general as to hardly be the seed of a solution.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Don, although immigration/emigration crosses both Remainer and Brexit debates... both arguments seems to advocate the opposing argument will harm access to cheap labour or cheaper professionals ... whether it be non EU labour in one camp or EU labour in another.

in an ideal world we want to have a like for like flow of people .. but alas it just doesn’t seem to be like this in the UK... we rely on other country’s cheaper labour and often cheaper professionalisms to prop us up whether it be working in  factories, picking fruit, supporting our National Health Service, developing some of our smart technologies, or cleaning our homes... and it feels predominately (though clearly not entirely) one way .. which feels unsustainable.... if we had equal numbers of people coming and going within these professions and roles then to me then that is entirely different and sustainable.

I appreciate that I might seem to be a little bit biased. I'm not, but it might seem like that.

Why ?

     Because 1/3 of my children emigrated 20 years ago.

     I worked overseas for about half my working life !

So from my perspective, poeple DO move both ways.

More importantly,

     we already had absolute control over all non-EU movement. Nothing to do with the EU and

     you have already clearly set out above, very clearly, why future EU movement towards the UK was likely to reduce significantly, and possibly reverse.

I can envisiage that in, say, 25 years time (ie a generation) we (the UK) will be applying to join the EU (on whatever terms we can get) so that we are able to be the migrant labour force seeking a better life in Bulgaria or Romania (should we call that Remonia ?)

Probably a thread that outsiders should lieave out of, however it has brought so many interesting things with it. The first rigged election cclose to home if home is Denmark. The best satire ever, and it was good before brexit. The pound is back where it  should be again, 20 to 25 percent down from before brexit. Of course nothing comes free and since we trade much with UK, we as a nation will have to pay for my the fun. On the other hand maybe we can  even  compensated with a special sperm agreement. Unfortunately the sperm  opportunity has been missed  here, but we have an election coming up in the next year and maybe this can change everything!

Claus

There  have been a couple of examples in the media over the last few days where supporters of leaving the EU (that awful term 'Brexiteers') have been arguing the case for leaving, against on the other side of the microphone trained professional negotiators. One had worked in European treaty negotiations, and one from the WTO who was a key part of the handover talks when Hong Kong was returned to China.

In both cases, the Leave EU supporter in the interview seems to rely completely on supposition, hope and and a totally unfounded expectation that the rest of the world is desperately eager to beat a path to our door to do deals with us. And countering this in these interviews, the professional negotiators have knocked back every suggestion of that happening as either wildly optimistic, unachievable in any kind of viable timeframe, and largely of being just completely unworkable. In short the message coming across loud and clear is that whatever the exit fans might wish for and might tell us will happen, the view from those who've been there and got the t-shirt is that it's complete pie in the key expecting any kind of deals of the sort that we'll need in anything like the timescales available, assuming they're at all possible in the first place.

And for what? Some abstract notion of 'regaining control'? I don't buy it that it's all about immigration; a lot of exit fans are full of this regaining control nonsense as if suddenly all laws will be made by a party that they fully support and which absolutely aligns with that voter's personal views. Tosh. I had 11 years of Blair & Brown to live through; some of you will have struggled through a similar period of Thatcherism presumably. We the electorate don't have control, we have a small say, a say that is as insignificant and significant as the say we have in European law. But we have a say; we elect a representative who toes the party line in the respective parliament, EU or Westminster. 

And the opposite of this abstract idea of regaining control, and what anybody with any sense should by now be opposing, is the almost certain lemming-like departure of the UK from the EU to stand alone as a tiny not very significant trading block, one that will regardless of being in or our have to comply which whatever regulations the EU and many other trading blocs may wish to apply should we wish to trade with them.  What a complete farce, that we have willingly put ourselves in a catastrophically worse position and will do untold damage to our economic well-being, to 'regain control'.

If it wasn't so serious it'd be laughable. But we're doing it in the face of all common sense, reason and logic. But we'll 'regain control'. Jeez. Bring on the second vote, the one that has just two questions: a) Are you really sure about this idea of leaving?; and 2) Seriously? Have you even considered what you're throwing away to 'regain control'?

Help. Please. Someone help get us out of this epicly stupid march towards economic self-destruction.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

There are some quite effective  anglers on this thread 

Yes, the type towing bait behind a moving vessel.

I have not followed this debate, only clicked in as I thought the spending other people’s money was about hifi...... BUT

I’m Irish, a small few in my name committed atrocities in Ireland and  England. Whilst some tried to tar all Irish with the same brush the majority understood that the Irish chap working in the steelworks alongside him was really no different to them and not a murderer. 

Tarring whole nationalities or religions with the same brush is a way of demonising and dehumanising people and it’s sad to see a once enlightened nation going down this road. 

.sjb