Are we sleep-walking out of Europe ?

Don Atkinson posted:

But if you were invited to vote on the basis I outlined above, what would you do ?

To pointedly paraphrase one of the most abject 'rallying cries' in history, it seems entirely likely that any deal is better than no deal.

Dave***t posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

But if you were invited to vote on the basis I outlined above, what would you do ?

To pointedly paraphrase one of the most abject 'rallying cries' in history, it seems entirely likely that any deal is better than no deal.

I feel your anguish !

thebigfredc posted:

 Don,

You seem to have a very low opinion of the great British public:

'...most of the electorate wouldn't have a clue what "The Deal" comprised nor its implications for our future. Nor would they have much idea what implications a "No Deal" would have.'

Granted that not everyone is blessed with the insight and intelligence of your average Naim Forum member such as you and me but surely the UK population has never been so well educated and has unprecedented access to news coverage.

Ray

But most of the electorate didn't seem to understand what Brexit involved - more money for the NHS, perhaps?

Don Atkinson posted:

MDS posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

I know we've been here before, but, if The Peoples' Vote became a reality (it won't, but don't let that get in the way) how would you vote, assuming the choice was:-

1. Accept the Deal and Leave

2. Leave without a Deal

And yes. I know we don't yet know what "The Deal" will look like, but let's face it, if such a vote did come upon us, most of the electorate wouldn't have a clue what "The Deal" comprised nor its implications for our future. Nor would they have much idea what implications a "No Deal" would have.

I thought the Peoples' Vote was also to include an option of rejecting the deal and staying, Don? 

Yes, I believe that is the case, and I would certainly hope it happens.

However, I have deliberately suggested the Gov, in an attempt to be able to say "we gave the People a choice" might come up with the above options. And if they don't give us, the people, a vote, this might be what out MPs are asked to vote upon !

I don't like it. Clearly I don't like Brexit. I'm just trying to sound out possible scenarios !

Politicians are pretty good at blaming "others" and who better to blame than The Electorate !

Thanks, Don. Yes, I can see why you've anticipated what questions May & co might wish to put to the people, if they felt a second referendum were unavoidable.  However, they would need to the House of Commons to vote in support of a second referendum and I don't think HMG would have the parliamentary votes to be able to force through a second referendum with the choice between accepting May's 'deal' or no deal i.e. 'we're still leaving so you only have a choice between two means of doing so'.  Indeed, if May's deal, as amended by negotiations with the EU, couldn't command a majority in the HoC, I suspect there are enough MPs to support a motion to instruct the government to go back to the negotiating table and to keep the UK in the EU in the meantime (in other words, seeking an extension to the Art 50 timetable, which the rest of the EU is very likely to agree to).

Mike

MDS posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

MDS posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

I know we've been here before, but, if The Peoples' Vote became a reality (it won't, but don't let that get in the way) how would you vote, assuming the choice was:-

1. Accept the Deal and Leave

2. Leave without a Deal

And yes. I know we don't yet know what "The Deal" will look like, but let's face it, if such a vote did come upon us, most of the electorate wouldn't have a clue what "The Deal" comprised nor its implications for our future. Nor would they have much idea what implications a "No Deal" would have.

I thought the Peoples' Vote was also to include an option of rejecting the deal and staying, Don? 

Yes, I believe that is the case, and I would certainly hope it happens.

However, I have deliberately suggested the Gov, in an attempt to be able to say "we gave the People a choice" might come up with the above options. And if they don't give us, the people, a vote, this might be what out MPs are asked to vote upon !

I don't like it. Clearly I don't like Brexit. I'm just trying to sound out possible scenarios !

Politicians are pretty good at blaming "others" and who better to blame than The Electorate !

Thanks, Don. Yes, I can see why you've anticipated what questions May & co might wish to put to the people, if they felt a second referendum were unavoidable.  However, they would need to the House of Commons to vote in support of a second referendum and I don't think HMG would have the parliamentary votes to be able to force through a second referendum with the choice between accepting May's 'deal' or no deal i.e. 'we're still leaving so you only have a choice between two means of doing so'.  Indeed,if May's deal, as amended by negotiations with the EU, couldn't command a majority in the HoC, I suspect there are enough MPs to support a motion to instruct the government to go back to the negotiating table and to keep the UK in the EU in the meantime (in other words, seeking an extension to the Art 50 timetable, which the rest of the EU is very likely to agree to).

Mike

I think this looks as close as MPs are going to get to a "meaningful" vote. And it's probably what will happen if they don't like the "Deal".

ie MPs could effectively instruct the Gov to continue negotiating until we get an acceptable deal. Meanwhile, we extend the A.50 timetable and remain as some sort of entity within the EU.

Perhaps !

Don Atkinson posted:

Dave***t posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

I know we've been here before, but, if The Peoples' Vote became a reality (it won't, but don't let that get in the way) how would you vote, assuming the choice was:-

1. Accept the Deal and Leave

2. Leave without a Deal

And yes. I know we don't yet know what "The Deal" will look like, but let's face it, if such a vote did come upon us, most of the electorate wouldn't have a clue what "The Deal" comprised nor its implications for our future. Nor would they have much idea what implications a "No Deal" would have.

This is simply the equivalent of asking 'are you an extremist, sever-ties-at-any-cost Brexiteer or not?'.  So there'll be some support for jumping off the cliff without a parachute, but it won't get anywhere near winning.  Just as there's the ERG in parliament, and then there's people who aren't lunatic vampires.

The 'people's vote' only makes sense if it includes the option of rejecting the deal and staying in.

Yes I know. And like IB below, I have suggested a few voting options that include the most sensible IMHO ie "we Remain"

But if you were invited to vote on the basis I outlined above, what would you do ?

It's hypothetical i know, but such an option of vote choice would be yet another Tory government act of defrauding democracy, and such a vote would only be of interest to [ 17 million? ] Brexiteers. I don't understand why any Remainer would lower themselves to vote on it, i wouldn't vote on it, wouldn't have anything to do with giving kudos to Brexit fascist ideology.

Debs

Debs,

I agree with your assessment 100%.

I don't think we, the electorate, will get another vote on this issue, so it's hypothetical. However, it strikes me, that this is the sort of "meaningful" vote that MPs might be faced with.

Hopefully, Mike's (MDS) view above will be a more likely scenarion, but who knows how things will pan out ?

naim_nymph posted:

It's hypothetical i know, but such an option of vote choice would be yet another Tory government act of defrauding democracy, and such a vote would only be of interest to [ 17 million? ] Brexiteers. I don't understand why any Remainer would lower themselves to vote on it, i wouldn't vote on it, wouldn't have anything to do with giving kudos to Brexit fascist ideology.

Debs

The problem with that is that we don't actually live in a democracy: we live in a representative democracy - not the same thing at all.

Ron,

such a vote wouldn't be meaningful, but totally meaningless to a huge majority of electorate; like asking a vegetarian how they'd like a steak cooked, well done or rare.

I can't see them getting away with such a obvious outrage to UK democracy, however the Peoples Vote specifies having the option of remaining with the EU,

I strongly believe a Peoples Vote will prevail and the outcome of the vote save us from the bonkers Brexit abyss of doom.

Debs

Debs,

I do hope you are right. It's what myself. IB and a few others have been recommending and hoping for at the very least.

Personally, I would be happy for the Gov to wake up and tell us this nightmare is over, we are remaining ! But I don't hold much hope for that !

And whilst i'm not a vegitarian, I do like your analagy.

Hear! hear!

The use of the word 'facist' in relation to those of us who voted for the UK to leave the EU is simply ridiculous.

It also demeans the efforts of those who fought real Facism during WW2.

Would you consider Corbyn a Nazi as he almost certainly voted for Brexit. Or Frank Field.

Whilst I am sure it would be incorrect to assume or suggest that all those who voted for Brexit are fascists, and quite possibly, even likely, that not even a majority are, I do suspect that people in Britain who are fascists, or who have fascist leanings, are quite likely to have voted that way, and may well have been behind the false assertions and misleading suggestions that Brexit would stop immigration in general, including immigration by non-white people from outside the EU.

Based on my own experiences after years at a Uni in Sussex doing post graduate research, I think most of the educated are quite liberal, tolerated. However, most of the British are very much concerned about the immigration, especially the people in rural areas, or small towns, or in low-income areas in major cities, somehow this pattern fit the profile of the people who voted in favor of Brexit?

I have encountered the phrase "We are just a small island" (in the context of immigration) many times.

thebigfredc posted:

The use of the word 'facist' in relation to those of us who voted for the UK to leave the EU is simply ridiculous.

It also demeans the efforts of those who fought real Facism during WW2.

Would you consider Corbyn a Nazi as he almost certainly voted for Brexit. Or Frank Field.

Definition of Fascist (OED):

1. 1.1 A person who is extremely right-wing or authoritarian.

   ‘thousands of fascists and nationalists marched in the capital’
    

2. 1.2 A person who is very intolerant or domineering in a particular area.

   ‘I'm a bit of a spelling fascist, but still have blind spots over words like ‘privilege’ or ‘separate’’

    

   Fascist does not mean Nazi. and some Brexiteers are indeed "very intolerant or domineering in a particular area" - but a few Remainers are as well...

    

Thanks for clearing that up Samclaus,

The subtitles of language however always come into play when it comes to the different meaning attributed to the same word in different contexts.

I think your spelling example at definition 2 trivialises the word and is nothing like the political context IB actually used it in '...Brexit facist ideology'. So I see it as making a link between the present day Brexit supporters and the facist ideology of Hitler/Mussolini et al and as such think it is really quite unfair and unpleasant.

Ray

thebigfredc posted:

Thanks for clearing that up Samclaus,

The subtitles of language however always come into play when it comes to the different meaning attributed to the same word in different contexts.

I think your spelling example at definition 2 trivialises the word and is nothing like the political context IB actually used it in '...Brexit facist ideology'. So I see it as making a link between the present day Brexit supporters and the facist ideology of Hitler/Mussolini et al and as such think it is really quite unfair and unpleasant.

Ray

 

I did not say, suggest or imply that. My only contribution mentioning fascists followed that and was was rather different

Sorry IB,

My mistake, it was Naim Nymph.

Ray

thebigfredc posted:

Thanks for clearing that up Samclaus,

The subtitles of language however always come into play when it comes to the different meaning attributed to the same word in different contexts.

I think your spelling example at definition 2 trivialises the word and is nothing like the political context IB actually used it in '...Brexit facist ideology'. So I see it as making a link between the present day Brexit supporters and the facist ideology of Hitler/Mussolini et al and as such think it is really quite unfair and unpleasant.

Ray

 

Yes, I do agree the word has been trivialised - and I would personally be reluctant to use the word fascist in that context.