Are we sleep-walking out of Europe ?

Re the comments on the use of the IBM card tabulator system by the Germans in WW2. They were supplied by IBM Germany to the German State, in the same and loyal way that Rolls Royce supplied engines to the UK government.

The US Government agencies were also using IBM card systems supplied by IBM in the US.  Watson (the big man at IBM at the time) turned over some of IBM's manufacturing capacity  to producing arms.

See

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_during_World_War_II

Another interesting story was that the US bombers were using bomb aiming kit made by ITT, US Airforce bombed factories owned by ITT Lorenz which was a subsidiary of ITT or its predecessors. 

MDS posted:

Simon

It's clear we have very different views on Obama's intervention, and that's fine. I can also understand you're getting annoyed at what politicians say and do but no matter how annoyed you are at Obama I'd very respectively suggest that your decision on which way to vote should be made on the merits of the 'stay or leave' issue and not the behaviour of the politicians.  I sure you will.

Mike 

Cheers Mike - yes my hope is that I base the decision on the matter in hand and the hope and aspirations for my children and theirs and not based on any short termism. My family, no doubt as with many, many others,  have fought and endured through several wars, have been suffragettes and campaigned and protested hard for other freedoms...for me my decision will hopefully be based on which team can underwrite the best democracy for our children and our children to come.

Simon

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

MDS posted:

Simon

It's clear we have very different views on Obama's intervention, and that's fine. I can also understand you're getting annoyed at what politicians say and do but no matter how annoyed you are at Obama I'd very respectively suggest that your decision on which way to vote should be made on the merits of the 'stay or leave' issue and not the behaviour of the politicians.  I sure you will.

Mike 

Cheers Mike - yes my hope is that I base the decision on the matter in hand and the hope and aspirations for my children and theirs and not based on any short termism. My family, no doubt as with many, many others,  have fought and endured through several wars, have been suffragettes and campaigned and protested hard for other freedoms...for me my decision will hopefully be based on which team can underwrite the best democracy for our children and our children to come.

Simon

On that we agree 100%, Simon.   

Mike

Hearing the word isolationist thrown around a lot, but what about the word independence?  It seems the UK is part of something which it fears becoming not a part of, almost like it can't extricate itself.  In that way it is not independent any longer because its "just too hard and scary" to withdraw from that union.  Isolationist is a scare word.

I have changed my view from what I stated a while ago - I will be voting to stay in.

I had the benefit of attending a town meeting arranged by my local MP  he had 4 speakers, an MEP, a Lawyer who specialised in EU law, an "expert" on the EU, and the Polish Ambassador. There was 3 or 4 questions from the audience which enabled the panel members to explain their views.

The MP at the end of the meeting said they had no view and that the meeting was very useful to assist him in coming to a view - the only comment he did make made one think he was a "leave" voter.

However a couple of weeks later he sent out a response detailing what he gained from the meeting and that quite to his surprise he had become a vote to stay in person.

Some of the key points were due to the length of time it would take for the UK to exit and to re establish itself in the world, an extimate of 10 years was mentioned several times.

The EU has quite an extensive (and expensive) space programme and a number of scientific programmes. It also is funding the Galileo and EGNOS Global Navigation Satellite Systems used in aviation navigation and a host of other enterprises. GNSS (primarily the US operated GPS) is used free of charge by most end users and I imagine Galileo will also be free when it's up and running.

What will the UK's position be post Brexit with respect to the space programme and various scientific programmes ?

A little thought.

As leaving or remaining in the EU is the problem for the people under forty five, perhaps we should restrict the vote to the younger two voting generations?

I have concluded that it makes no difference to me whether we remain or leave. If either course makes the UK no place to spend my declining years, then I can emigrate. 

What does tickle me is Cameron’s comment that we would be “better in a reformed EU."

Well he failed to reform the EU in preparation for the referendum, and there is fat chance it will be reformed if we vote to stay in. 

Of course if we dare to leave then the EU will have a queue  at the door to follow, and reform will be rapid. A paradox if ever ...

ATB from George

I read today, in the Daily Mail (at least I think it was - I was browsing whilst waiting for parts at my local Mercedes dealership), that Merkel has deep-rooted plans for a Pan-European Military force.

Basically, she wants to be Commander-in-Chief of THE European Forces - with ALL of Europe's military under the command of German Officers.

Now I'm not sure how credible the DM's reporter is, or whether this is some made-up story that has been "leaked", but.............

..................i'm still sticking with Mercs, even though Honda, Toyota, Nisan and a few others are made in Britain.

Dear Don,

If it comes to War involving European Forces on home turf - given modern technology - it will hardly matter if the Germans command the British Army or not!

As Tom Lehrer has, "we shall all roast on the same rotisserie!"

Best wishes from George

Don Atkinson posted:

I read today, in the Daily Mail (at least I think it was - I was browsing whilst waiting for parts at my local Mercedes dealership), that Merkel has deep-rooted plans for a Pan-European Military force.

An insider told me there's noffin to worry about. Noffin!

Don Atkinson posted:

I read today, in the Daily Mail (at least I think it was - I was browsing whilst waiting for parts at my local Mercedes dealership), that Merkel has deep-rooted plans for a Pan-European Military force.

Basically, she wants to be Commander-in-Chief of THE European Forces - with ALL of Europe's military under the command of German Officers.

Now I'm not sure how credible the DM's reporter is, or whether this is some made-up story that has been "leaked", but.............

..................i'm still sticking with Mercs, even though Honda, Toyota, Nisan and a few others are made in Britain.

It's quite tempting to lapse into stereotypes in reacting to that story but more seriously I think in military matters the UK forces are highly regarded in Europe because, apart from numbers (I think despite 'austerity', we're still among the higher spenders in defence), we have considerable real campaign experience. The Germans in contrast have been very conservative about committing any of their forces to foreign action. So I think it quite unlikely that German officers would be calling the shots.  Anyway, isn't this NATO territory?

BTW - I'm sticking with Mercs too 

I don't know why so many are against Turkey joining the EU. I have just seen a  footage of the a good parliamentary turkish session including a punch up among some members. Looking forward to see a tit-a-tat between Corgyn and Camroon. Bring it on!

Don Atkinson posted:

 

Now I'm not sure how credible the DM's reporter is, or whether this is some made-up story

Have a guess.

Go on.

Bet you get it.

Friends

For those interested, there's a really excellent summation on the subject of a possible Brexit in the Thursday issue of the Wall Street Journal. The article, written by Greg Ip, and titled "In Possible Brexit: It's Not About Economics", offers an interesting summation (to yours truly at least) on the issues involved and their possible impact on Britain.

Don Atkinson posted:

Basically, she wants to be Commander-in-Chief of THE European Forces - with ALL of Europe's military under the command of German Officers.

 

Sure, her part time job as Bundeskanzlerin leaves her time enough for another office. And if there is still time left she intends to work as a stand-in for the Queen...

I've heard it said those wanting to leave can't tell us with certainty what will happen if we exit, can someone voting remain/with the knowledge please let me know the plan if we stay; given the UK won't replace Pound Sterling with the Euro and won't move closer re administration - one government, one language, one tax system, one legal system, one army etc.

Thanks,

OW

A fair number of people on this forum (and elsewhere I would add) have asked for clear, impartial advice as to what might happen if we remain in the EU or if we were to leave. Obviously there are a large number of key issues that need to be addressed.

Today, the Governor of the Bank of England covered a number of issues and has stated that studies carried out by The Bank suggest that if we Leave, we are likely to see the Pound devalue, Unemployment rise, a "Technical" recession materialise and a few other woeful things happen.

The Remain campaign seem to be pleased with his statement, which they think is impartial, sound advice, whilst the Leave campaign consider it to be unjustified meddling in Politics and he should be sacked.

If he hadn't made today's statement, → and we Left the EU, → and these things happened → and it was then revealed that The Bank had carried out these studies → but kept them secret, → would you be content ?

Which other organisation(s) might be called upon to provide clear, impartial advice about these matters ?

Six weeks............and counting !

Literally

Central Banks are a lot of things, but "impartial" would not be on that list. Your question is a fair one, and there are two answers; (1) no one, because anyone with enough interest to do a study will have a dog in the fight and be biased, and (2) no one, because no one can know for sure how it will play out. I don't know if you've noticed, but central bakers and government economists are positively dreadful at making predictions...if anything, do the opposite of what they predict and it will serve you well more often than not.

If the EU tanks financially, you may be glad you're not in it. If they prosper then you might wish you'd stayed.

The EU is a large economic block, but it is definitely not a healthy economic block at present. (Neither is the USA, lest I be accused of anti-EU bias compared to the US economy.) I think the economic piece for the UK were they to leave will depend on what the UK does economically - it is still a powerful country with a large economy. The bad news is your politicians are likely not any smarter than EU (or US) ones when it comes to fiscal affairs.

I will say the term "isolationist" is pure horse manure and meant to be a scare mongering tactic - it connotes something that is not going to be the case should you leave. If the UK leaves are they going to cease trading with other nations? Hardly. Are they going to drop out of NATO? No way. Are they going to not honor or negotiate treaties with other nations? Assuredly so. Will they cease allowing foreign travelers to enter and leave the country? Of course not.

I have no idea what is best for the UK in this regard, and I don't know that anyone else really does (with certainty) either.

Don Atkinson posted:

I read today, in the Daily Mail (at least I think it was - I was browsing whilst waiting for parts at my local Mercedes dealership), that Merkel has deep-rooted plans for a Pan-European Military force.

Basically, she wants to be Commander-in-Chief of THE European Forces - with ALL of Europe's military under the command of German Officers.

Now I'm not sure how credible the DM's reporter is, or whether this is some made-up story that has been "leaked", but.............

..................i'm still sticking with Mercs, even though Honda, Toyota, Nisan and a few others are made in Britain.

I laughed so much I nearly choked on my toast - you REALLY believe what you read in the Daily Mail?

bluedog posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

I read today, in the Daily Mail (at least I think it was - I was browsing whilst waiting for parts at my local Mercedes dealership), that Merkel has deep-rooted plans for a Pan-European Military force.

Basically, she wants to be Commander-in-Chief of THE European Forces - with ALL of Europe's military under the command of German Officers.

Now I'm not sure how credible the DM's reporter is, or whether this is some made-up story that has been "leaked", but.............

..................i'm still sticking with Mercs, even though Honda, Toyota, Nisan and a few others are made in Britain.

I laughed so much I nearly choked on my toast - you REALLY believe what you read in the Daily Mail?

What other source of information can I rely upon in these times of anxiety ?

I did note a couple of retired Army Officers reporting similar details during a BBC news programme a day or so later. But they might also be browsers of whatever reading material is lying around in car show rooms and dental surgeries...

DrMark posted:

Central Banks are a lot of things, but "impartial" would not be on that list. Your question is a fair one, and there are two answers; (1) no one, because anyone with enough interest to do a study will have a dog in the fight and be biased, and (2) no one, because no one can know for sure how it will play out. I don't know if you've noticed, but central bakers and government economists are positively dreadful at making predictions...if anything, do the opposite of what they predict and it will serve you well more often than not.

If the EU tanks financially, you may be glad you're not in it. If they prosper then you might wish you'd stayed.

The EU is a large economic block, but it is definitely not a healthy economic block at present. (Neither is the USA, lest I be accused of anti-EU bias compared to the US economy.) I think the economic piece for the UK were they to leave will depend on what the UK does economically - it is still a powerful country with a large economy. The bad news is your politicians are likely not any smarter than EU (or US) ones when it comes to fiscal affairs.

I will say the term "isolationist" is pure horse manure and meant to be a scare mongering tactic - it connotes something that is not going to be the case should you leave. If the UK leaves are they going to cease trading with other nations? Hardly. Are they going to drop out of NATO? No way. Are they going to not honor or negotiate treaties with other nations? Assuredly so. Will they cease allowing foreign travelers to enter and leave the country? Of course not.

I have no idea what is best for the UK in this regard, and I don't know that anyone else really does (with certainty) either.

I'm not sure on what basis people will decide which way to vote. There are no guarantees of what the future holds with regard to any of the important issues. It's either a guess or a balance of other people's opinions. Or simply because you "like - trust" Boris on the one hand, or Cameron on the other hand.

Or the real quandary; that you "like or trust" neither, because neither is worthy of being liked nor trusted.

(See: Presidential Election - USA, Exhibit A, by way of example.)

The most depressing aspect has been the woeful standard of debate on the subject; it rarely ascends above the ya-boo level of the commons on a bad day.  Scare-mongering on both sides has only polarised those who had already made up their minds and has done nothing to help those genuinely confused by the whole thing.  My biggest fear is that the turn-out will be limited to those who hold strong views either way and then there WILL be a strong risk that we sleepwalk out of the EU.

bluedog posted:

The most depressing aspect has been the woeful standard of debate on the subject; it rarely ascends above the ya-boo level of the commons on a bad day.  Scare-mongering on both sides has only polarised those who had already made up their minds and has done nothing to help those genuinely confused by the whole thing.  My biggest fear is that the turn-out will be limited to those who hold strong views either way and then there WILL be a strong risk that we sleepwalk out of the EU.

 

Agreed, over recent weeks I have felt like we are being pushed into making a decision based on fear whch I find intensely annoying and lining people up from all over the world to tell me we'll all be eaten by dinosaurs if we vote out isn't giving me the information I need to make a rational decision.