Are we sleep-walking out of Europe ?

It's not that simple, Frank.

The EU Commission is virtually unaccountable to anybody, yet it drafts "Rules" which affect just about everybody.

And when it gets those rules wrong, it take years to amend them, in those cases where they do get amended. Believe me, five years to implement simple amendments is not uncommon.

In many cases these snivelling servants won't even consider amendments, never mind starting with a clean sheet.

It's not just the direct costs of employing these people, which in global terms is trivial, but the commercial carnage that they cause and its financial censequences.

It's not only the EU that drags it feet, we've been procrastinating over the building of a new runway for London for the last decade. The Chinese took about six months to build one on a remote island in the China sea.

It's not been built yet for political reasons, and when the it is eventually built, it's location will be down to political reasons.

Chinese efficiency is really easy. One guy/party  tells you what to do. "Political reasons" is generally the remark made when decisions involve alot of input including input from those not agreeing with the writer.

fatcat posted:

Laws/policies  implemented by somebody who does so for the good of everybody. IE unelected EU commission, who doesn't need to base it's decisions on opinion polls.

Gullible are we?

SNAIC in the Grass posted:

fatcat posted:

Laws/policies  implemented by somebody who does so for the good of everybody. IE unelected EU commission, who doesn't need to base it's decisions on opinion polls.

Gullible are we?

 

Sorry, one doesn't know you well enough to comment accurately.

Fatcat, while on the face of it your view is somewhat Panglossian, I do agree. Some of the most significant EU legislation - working time directive, statutory holiday, maternity leave - would never have happened if the UK Government had its way, leaving it to shareholders to protect their workforce - like that's going to happen.

The Bank of England, the IMF, the OECD, the rest of Europe, a majority of the CBI and Chambers of Commerce, all say that leaving would be bad for the UK, with lower investment, lower productivity, higher interest rates and shortages of skilled labour. And yet the Out campaign still says we will be better off. It's those that believe their nonsense who are the gullible ones - either that or simply reckless, gambling our prosperity and security for some rose tinted idea that we will be better off by ourselves. 

Hungryhalibut,

What is wrong with a Labour government pushing through such legislation? Isn't that part of their job, reason for being? The way they are talking re the referendum, it is as if they believe they will never form a capable government or even be elected again.

With regard to organisations and views, alternatively you could fall for the self-interest pronouncements of their leaders, the BS spouted about the threat to our security, and the nonsense paraded as fact re trade etc.

Given we will vote to remain this time, I still haven't seen or heard a plan to deal with the UK and Eurozone diverging.

Cheers,

OW

fatcat posted:

...

Laws/policies  implemented by somebody who does so for the good of everybody. IE unelected EU commission, who doesn't need to base it's decisions on opinion polls.

You are placing a little too much faith in the probity and competence of those unelected (and unaccountable) officials.  You are asking to be governed by a dictatorship and, despite your issues with democracy, that never ends well.

fatcat posted:

What is the better option.

Laws/policies implemented by somebody who does so for the good of themselves or political party. IE democratically elected UK government, whose policies are purely based on winning votes and maintaining/winning power

Laws/policies  implemented by somebody who does so for the good of everybody. IE unelected EU commission, who doesn't need to base it's decisions on opinion polls.

Well Frank, since you ask, the first option.

If we don't like what they are offering, we don't vote for them. And they in turn, do at least try to offer to do things that lots and lots of people would like them to do. And if they don't deliver, we vote for somebody else next time. Take a look at Scotland. Labour "out", SNP "in" and things are changing, or so I am told.

Don

That doesn't work for me, doesn't matter who I vote for, I'm going to get a labour MP. However, if we had proportional representation, that would be a different matter.

If we're going to run the country based on the whim of the masses, why do we need a government, why not cut out the middle man. Get the civil servants to draught legislation based on opinion polls.

The SNP is the labour party special edition. Special edition version has the independence add on.

Me neither. I always vote Labour, in one of the safest Tory seats in the country. This time they put up a complete idiot and he romped home. 

PeterJ posted:

fatcat posted:

...

Laws/policies  implemented by somebody who does so for the good of everybody. IE unelected EU commission, who doesn't need to base it's decisions on opinion polls.

You are placing a little too much faith in the probity and competence of those unelected (and unaccountable) officials.  You are asking to be governed by a dictatorship and, despite your issues with democracy, that never ends well.

I've no doubt some of them are incompetent, but probably no more incompetent than the conservative and labour government we've had over the past 20 years, in fact I'm in my late fifties and I can't recall the UK having a competent government.

With regards the EU being a dictatorship, I doubt that's true, who's the dictator. We normally associate dictatorships with loss of rights and freedom, it appears to me the EU have increased right and freedoms. Open borders equals greater freedom to travel. Bizarrely, the UK government blocked the EU policy of giving prisoners the freedom to vote.

According to Johnson, the EU is doing the work that Hitler couldn't manage. The Out campaigners are really losing the plot, and making increasing offensive remarks, invoking Hitler and using racist slurs against Obama. I'm not a fan of Heseltine, or any Tory come to that, but his coruscating remarks about Johnson earlier today make interesting reading. Hopefully it will scupper any chances he ever had of leading the Tories. 

fatcat posted:

Don

That doesn't work for me, doesn't matter who I vote for, I'm going to get a labour MP. However, if we had proportional representation, that would be a different matter.

If we're going to run the country based on the whim of the masses, why do we need a government, why not cut out the middle man. Get the civil servants to draught legislation based on opinion polls.

The SNP is the labour party special edition. Special edition version has the independence add on.

 

And HH posted

"Me neither. I always vote Labour, in one of the safest Tory seats in the country. This time they put up a complete idiot and he romped home. "

Ok, Ok, our voting system doesn't please everybody all of the time. I was brought up in Co. Durham and voted always Conservative, despite knowing it would always be a Labour  candidate who won.

I voted for proportional representation, again in the minority.

At the moment I am inclined towards the "Remain" vote. Heseltine was well-measured and right in his comments about Johnson today and his further comment that the debate had sunk to little more than an immature squabble. Even Newsnight could do better, at least IMHO.

Frank F posted:

This is yet another case of Health and Safety causing stupidity without the EU being involved so will leaving EU drive more sense into UK Administrators????

Just a sight "correction" ... it appears (from the Daily Mail article) this is a case of some ****t deciding it should be banned because of concerns over health and safety, as opposed to Heath and Safety [Executive] (capital letters implying a proper noun) suggesting this practice should be banned.  

In other words its an individual decision rather than as a result of any "rules" set down by any form of government / authority.

I think that's right. There are twits everywhere. At least the Eurotwits can exert some sort of control when the Brit-twits try to do something too twitty, which they seem wont to do all to frequently. 

fatcat posted:

I've no doubt some of them are incompetent, but probably no more incompetent than the conservative and labour government we've had over the past 20 years, in fact I'm in my late fifties and I can't recall the UK having a competent government.

With regards the EU being a dictatorship, I doubt that's true, who's the dictator. We normally associate dictatorships with loss of rights and freedom, it appears to me the EU have increased right and freedoms. Open borders equals greater freedom to travel. Bizarrely, the UK government blocked the EU policy of giving prisoners the freedom to vote.

I seem to remember Government being reasonably competent until Major took over then it all began to go downhill.

If you look at the mess the EU have created over the Euro (devastation of employment in many countries) and the security problems caused by uncontrolled borders that seems quite incompetent to me.  Also, remember that a huge amount of EU legislation and regulation is driven by corporate lobbying in Brussels.   When were the EU accounts last signed off by their own auditors?

How are the EU officials accountable to the voters? Also, although UK is a net contributor to the EU budget we always get outvoted (by those nations who are net benefactors) whenever we raise an objection.

Also, whatever the rights or wrongs of prisoner voting you should know that it stems from a ECHR judgement and not from EU.

PeterJ posted:

fatcat posted:

...

Laws/policies  implemented by somebody who does so for the good of everybody. IE unelected EU commission, who doesn't need to base it's decisions on opinion polls.

You are placing a little too much faith in the probity and competence of those unelected (and unaccountable) officials.  You are asking to be governed by a dictatorship and, despite your issues with democracy, that never ends well.

The EU is not a government. 
It is NOT governing the UK, as it is NOT governing France, Spain or Belgium.
The EU makes policies/guidelines that (more often than not) will protect you from mega corps (see G**gle, M$ etc), but it will NOT tell YOUR government how to adjust VAT, set budget objectives or make balances or pensions.

Hungryhalibut posted:

According to Johnson, the EU is doing the work that Hitler couldn't manage. The Out campaigners are really losing the plot, and making increasing offensive remarks, invoking Hitler and using racist slurs against Obama. I'm not a fan of Heseltine, or any Tory come to that, but his coruscating remarks about Johnson earlier today make interesting reading. Hopefully it will scupper any chances he ever had of leading the Tories. 

Is one person a campaign?

---

Don Atkinson - Newsnight,

With regard to TV debate, the Leave campaign needs some balls; they tend to allow themselves to be talked over and the moderators are allowing it - Newsnight on Monday and Channel 4 news yesterday (Tuesday).

---

I propose a third union; Europe, North America, most of Asia (ENAMA). Part of its function would be to flush out corruption and remove trade blockages. It could also keep the Eurotwits in line and step in should those twits fail to control the Brit-twits. The organisation would be based in Lisbon and cost one or two cups of coffee per person a day - three if we move the operation from Lisbon to a suggested second base, Montreal, once a month. Continents/countries have been left out to allow for more unions as and when they are required.

Cheers,

OW

Boris Johnson told a meeting in Stafford: "It is absurd we are told that you cannot sell bananas in bunches of more than two or three bananas."    That sums him up for me !!!  that individual is banana's,  & he is a shame for those on the Brexit side who do need a sensible debate.

Just saw this yesterday - I don't know if this is such a good thing.:

A few days ago, the European Commission released details of a tax directive that will create a pan-European tax system, complete with a brand new Tax ID number for all the good citizens of Europe.

The proposal also aims to increase taxes across the board if they feel that a member state (like Ireland) doesn’t charge enough tax.

According to the proposal, other European countries like Ireland and Estonia “distort competition by granting favourable tax arrangements.”

Apparently it’s not ‘fair’ that high-tax France and Belgium have to compete with low-tax Ireland and Estonia.

So rather than the bankrupt countries getting their act together to attract business, the solution is to penalize everyone and make the entire continent less attractive.

uk will wake up when we ditch a failed idea EU. LOTS in the eu  WANT out. a failed experiment

DrMark posted:

Just saw this yesterday - I don't know if this is such a good thing.:

A few days ago, the European Commission released details of a tax directive that will create a pan-European tax system, complete with a brand new Tax ID number for all the good citizens of Europe.

The proposal also aims to increase taxes across the board if they feel that a member state (like Ireland) doesn’t charge enough tax.

According to the proposal, other European countries like Ireland and Estonia “distort competition by granting favourable tax arrangements.”

Apparently it’s not ‘fair’ that high-tax France and Belgium have to compete with low-tax Ireland and Estonia.

So rather than the bankrupt countries getting their act together to attract business, the solution is to penalize everyone and make the entire continent less attractive.

 

Dr Mark,

I fear you missed the point slightly:

Ireland and Estonia are only providing low tax status to pan-national companies trading in the EU so that they can 're-assign' the location of their profits to these internal 'tax havens'.  In other words, tax on business conducted in France, Germany and Belgium (in fact all other EU states) is paid to Ireland (or Estonia) instead of the country in which the tax liability should have arisen.  The tax rate can be much lower as they are getting tax revenues not just from business conducted in their own country, but from business conducted in all other EU countries as well.  And that really isn't fair.

It's a bit like a company selling stuff in North Carolina and paying a lower rate of state sales tax to Qubec instead of North Carolina.

"The current political priorities in international taxation highlight the need for ensuring that tax is paid where profits are generated and value is created. It is thus imperative to restore trust in the fairness of tax systems and allow governments to effectively exercise their tax sovereignty."

If I read this correctly, it means that, for example, Amazon will not be able to avoid UK tax for sales made in the UK. Why is this not a good thing? 

And (it must be a mistake) it actually mentions member states having sovereignty.

It's not a good thing because I've asked my account to get me an Amazon deal with HMRC. Or failing that a Google one. Why should they have all the fun? If the EU plug this gaping hole ,I and most of the rest of us will be obliged to remain honest and pay appropriately. Not fair!