Are we sleep-walking out of Europe ?

Or perhaps, ostensibly why it was formed in the first place...I think there has been an awful lot of "mission creep" in the past decade, without which none of this might even be being bandied about.

As for supposed economic reasons, the ECB is using its QE program to buy European corporate bonds, in addition to sovereign debt. (As if the first idea wasn't bad enough already.) The program will officially target only investment-grade corporate debt, but that rule comes with a catch. (Central bankers are sooo good with catches.)  From Bloomberg this week:

"The European Central Bank didn't shy away from the region's riskier securities when it began buying corporate bonds on Wednesday.

Purchases included notes from Telecom Italia SpA, according to people familiar with the matter, even though Italy's biggest phone company is rated as sub-investment grade by two ratings firms. (emphasis not in original) The company's bonds are in Bank of America Merrill Lynch's Euro High Yield Index and credit-default swaps insuring the notes against losses are part of the Markit iTraxx Crossover Index linked to companies with mostly junk ratings.

Mario Draghi is showing he's planning to make the biggest impact possible on the first day of corporate bond purchases by casting his net as wide as the program allows. While the ECB has said it would buy corporate bonds with a single investment-grade rating, some investors expected the central bank to start with the region's highest-rated securities."

Think about what that means. The ECB is printing money to purchase junk bonds.

Gee, what could possibly go wrong with that.

In or Out ?

The subjects to take into account are numerous and diverse. They include both logic and emotion.

Given that there has been little (if any) (balanced ?) exposition on mainstream television of the basic issues and how the future might re-shape these issues, I shudder to think how ill-informed we all are, prior to casting our votes in 10 days time.

I guess most people will consider one or two topical issues, mixed with emotion and base their vote on that.

In or Out.

I am inclined to vote Remain. And I'd like to think that if we do remain, we shall be able to bring about significant reform of the EU from within. But I appreciate that is probably about as thoughtful as pissing into the wind.

Mrs D is undecided, but appears to be wavering towards Leave. She has nominated me as her Proxy because she will be in Canada on polling day. She has said she will let me know on the 23rd, which way to cast her vote.

How many people are still undecided ?

DrMark posted:

As for supposed economic reasons, the ECB is using its QE program to buy European corporate bonds, in addition to sovereign debt. (As if the first idea wasn't bad enough already.) The program will officially target only investment-grade corporate debt, but that rule comes with a catch. (Central bankers are sooo good with catches.)  From Bloomberg this week:

"The European Central Bank didn't shy away from the region's riskier securities when it began buying corporate bonds on Wednesday.

Purchases included notes from Telecom Italia SpA, according to people familiar with the matter, even though Italy's biggest phone company is rated as sub-investment grade by two ratings firms. (emphasis not in original) The company's bonds are in Bank of America Merrill Lynch's Euro High Yield Index and credit-default swaps insuring the notes against losses are part of the Markit iTraxx Crossover Index linked to companies with mostly junk ratings.

Mario Draghi is showing he's planning to make the biggest impact possible on the first day of corporate bond purchases by casting his net as wide as the program allows. While the ECB has said it would buy corporate bonds with a single investment-grade rating, some investors expected the central bank to start with the region's highest-rated securities."

Think about what that means. The ECB is printing money to purchase junk bonds.

Gee, what could possibly go wrong with that.

Looks like "business as usual" ................."business" being to make a fast Buck despite any consequences !

Don Atkinson posted:

In or Out.

I am inclined to vote Remain. And I'd like to think that if we do remain, we shall be able to bring about significant reform of the EU from within. But I appreciate that is probably about as thoughtful as pissing into the wind.

Mrs D is undecided, but appears to be wavering towards Leave. She has nominated me as her Proxy because she will be in Canada on polling day. She has said she will let me know on the 23rd, which way to cast her vote.

How many people are still undecided ?

Of course you don't need to vote in accourdance to her wishes. You can vote whichever way you like. She'll never know.

I was watching Gordon Brown discussing the EU on Sky News this morning. My wife came into the room and asked whether Gordon was in or out. When I told her in, she said "do the out campagn have any supporters who aren't nutters" I had to tell her no, I honestly couldn't think of any.

Don Atkinson posted:

DrMark posted:

As for supposed economic reasons, the ECB is using its QE program to buy European corporate bonds, in addition to sovereign debt. (As if the first idea wasn't bad enough already.) The program will officially target only investment-grade corporate debt, but that rule comes with a catch. (Central bankers are sooo good with catches.)  From Bloomberg this week:

"The European Central Bank didn't shy away from the region's riskier securities when it began buying corporate bonds on Wednesday.

Purchases included notes from Telecom Italia SpA, according to people familiar with the matter, even though Italy's biggest phone company is rated as sub-investment grade by two ratings firms. (emphasis not in original) The company's bonds are in Bank of America Merrill Lynch's Euro High Yield Index and credit-default swaps insuring the notes against losses are part of the Markit iTraxx Crossover Index linked to companies with mostly junk ratings.

Mario Draghi is showing he's planning to make the biggest impact possible on the first day of corporate bond purchases by casting his net as wide as the program allows. While the ECB has said it would buy corporate bonds with a single investment-grade rating, some investors expected the central bank to start with the region's highest-rated securities."

Think about what that means. The ECB is printing money to purchase junk bonds.

Gee, what could possibly go wrong with that.

Looks like "business as usual" ................."business" being to make a fast Buck despite any consequences !

Don.

Who's making a fast buck.

Mark

RE Telecom Italia SpA bonds, how much money are we talking about, thousands, millions or UK billions. (£)

An interesting thought / analysis I read a few days ago, unfortunately I didn't save it because it expressed these thoughts much better.  But in essence it was

"Yes there are problems with the EU, but why are we concentrating on those minor problems which (according to Farage, etc.) we can't do much about, but ignoring all the major problems with ing the country and the governance of the country we can affect?  The whole EU debate is just pulling the wool over our eyes and providing a scapegoat for the problems in the UK."

Anyway ... Just a thought.

FC - don't know, but the only good answer is zero. But these psychopaths have created a world with negative interest rates, where the value of money is less than zero, and since there is no yield, it forces savers to take unwanted risks.

All kinds of pensions funds, both private and public, have been created around a model where they can relatively safely make around 7% in the bond market. Where are they going to get that yield in today's bizzaro Keynesian economic dystopia? The premise was that negative interest rates would force people to pull their money and spend it, thereby "stimulating" the economy. But research is showing that people have actually tried to INCREASE their saving to get ahead of the money they are losing in the bank...especially in more prudent cultures like Japan. A new flat screen TV or Toyota won't feed you in retirement.

Of course, when it all blows up and so many are left without pensions (or at least severely reduced from what was promised), those who actually caused the problem will come with a "solution" - always to the benefit of the top percent, politicians, and central banker types.

But all this is because these losers who "run" economies have borrowed more than they can ever pay back, and they need inflation so badly they will do anything to get it, lest they default. Inflating away the debt is the only card in their hands. If interest rates went up by any rational amount that actually reflected the true market value of money, even the USA would be in default.

The likes of Bernanke, Yellen, Draghi, and LaGarde (and others) should all rot in whatever hell awaits them...they are going to hurt a lot of innocent people with their policies.

And as a result of this cheap money, companies are also in tremendous debt, with accompanying capital mis-allocation. A wave of defaults is coming, and the bond market (which is WAY bigger and more important than the stock market) will unwind in a very ugly way.

And the sheeple cry out for more.

Don - Get yourself and wife set up for a postal vote, then you can travel during the election season - as long as you are at for a short period to fill in the voting slip.

Derek Wright posted:

Don - Get yourself and wife set up for a postal vote....

Is it not too late for that?

C.

Perhaps for this time, but another election/whatever will be along shortly.

Christopher_M posted:

Derek Wright posted:

Don - Get yourself and wife set up for a postal vote....

Is it not too late for that?

C.

Hi Chris, Hi Derek,

We did think about a postal vote but it was a bit tight, time-wise to set up and implement.

Arranging the Proxy vote was easier and gave us more time.

Her visit to Canada is at relatively short notice and we have had to re-arrange quite a few things to accomodate it.

And the Proxy route gives her more time to decide which way to vote.

First posted elsewhere...

I've come to the conclusion that at the end of the day... people want SOMETHING to change. They don't really know what they want to change but immigration and the EU are convenient hooks to hang all the country's problems on.

Successive governments just haven't listened ... maybe its always been like this but for as long as I have had a passing interest in politics the "working class" have always been the brunt of any cuts and reduction in standards of living, and the working classes have been growing daily. If you don't go to university when you are 18; you're pretty much written off these days - yes there are apprenticeships, but without well supported industries (and no I don't mean financial support but something you might call "moral" support of the government) they are pretty pointless. The old jobs for life really have gone ... how many people are confident that they company they work for will even be around in 5 years time let alone their job?

Something has to change, and when Westminster doesn't have the will to change it; the people will rebel - and that rebellion is coming in the form of Brexit.

What I would call on people is to question if they are voting leave (or remain) for the right reasons.  Are your problems with the EU, or with the UK government.  Voting Leave on the 23rd is NOT going to change most of the problems people are having in their lives.  It won't ban zero hours contracts.  It won't make the national living wage into something people can really live on.  It won't make sufficient funding available for the NHS to offer you a guaranteed same day GP appointment and casualty care when you need it.  It won't sort the problems within the steel industry.  It won't make fuel prices cheaper (excepting possibly the ability to lower VAT).

It's quite clever really, despite the sub moronic level of debate. Get people from many leanings and persuasions angry and agitated. Then give them the wrong bag to punch. Classic. Ane we fall for it. So more bloody fool us.

Wish I'd started stashing Euros sooner.

As a Dutchman ( no not European) I can give you one string advice. Vote NO.

fred40 posted:

As a Dutchman ( no not European) I can give you one string advice. Vote NO.

Fred, basically the options are:-

• Leave the EU
• Remain as part of the EU

"Yes" and "No" would be far too confusing for most of us !

Ok.,you have a point. Leave the EU. 

fred40 posted:

Ok.,you have a point. Leave the EU. 

Is that because you don't want us ? (I think this is true of many people in Europe, so don't be afraid to say so !!)

or is it because you would like Holland to leave if it had the opportunity ? (which I think is what you implied in you earlier post)

Don Atkinson posted:

fred40 posted:

As a Dutchman ( no not European) I can give you one string advice. Vote NO.

Fred, basically the options are:-

• Leave the EU
• Remain as part of the EU

"Yes" and "No" would be far too confusing for most of us !

A new last minute EU directive on ballet paper choices has ruled the UK Euro Referendum ballet paper will give two choices:

YES - UK to stay in the EU

NO - UK not leave the EU

That's one choice. 

Some observations.

The polls in May swung to Remain

The polls so far in June have swung to Leave!

The bookies still make Remain odds on favourite...

Of people I have discussed this with, the 'Leavers' tend to be women and old men! I don't pretend to know exactly why but in conversation it does tend to come down to European 'meddling' in our laws and immigration policies it seems...

But ask them to name a law they'd rather not have. The answer is usually, 'well, I can't hint of any offhand' or more simply, 'durr'.

Hungryhalibut posted:

But ask them to name a law they'd rather not have. The answer is usually, 'well, I can't hint of any offhand' or more simply, 'durr'.

Perhaps we should have an intelligence test before we are allowed to vote next Thursday ?

Many people simply vote from the heart, using their emotions to guide them. Is that wrong ?

In my view yes, it is wrong.