Are we sleep-walking out of Europe ?

Depends if you have a heart at all I guess...

Hungryhalibut posted:

In my view yes, it is wrong. 

Absolutely.

It wouldn't worry me so much if the out voters that I speak to could actually make anything like a reasoned argument. They all mention two things, Imigration and Sovereignty. But when challenged they cannot explain what they mean and list common untruths. 

Hungryhalibut posted:

In my view yes, it is wrong. 

IMHO an awful lot of voters are incapable of absorbing information provided by the spokesmen of the Leave campaign or the Remain campaign or the various "Independent" experts. Even more are incapable of rationalizing the above sources of information. Emotion rules (*)

On what basis should such people vote ?..............(unfortunately ?) you can't deny such people their right to vote.

(*) I think this also applies in the case of Boris and Osborne. Sturgeon, OTOH is probably calculating how to engineer another Scottish Referendum out of this unholy mess...........

Regardless as to who wins the poll, the future will still bring forward all kinds of problems,

the rich will remain getting richer leaving the poor to get poorer, etc....

It maybe better to vote for the losing side, and sidestep responsibility for the outcome,

and to be able to smugly say, "i didn't vote for it"

Debs

Yes, many people seem to be complaining there isn't enough information out there to help them vote.

IMO there is plenty out there, the BBC seem to have gone above and beyond in this regard for example. Folks are just struggling to rationalise it to suit their original heartfelt preferences I think. I suspect this is primarily because there is no precedent they can refer back to I.e. "I've always voted for...", "My dad always voted for..." which means they have to work it out for themselves. 

I do think many people will make their minds up, and perhaps swing, on the day itself

Interesting to see the strains within the Conservative party getting worse and worse.  An Conservative MP on TV today was pretty nakedly rubbishing Osborne and effectively saying that the number of rebel Tory MPs plus Labour would vote down any post-Brexit Budget. Not sure how any of this helps voters to decide on the main issue and I'm not at all sure he was helping the Brexit camp since he is effectively saying: I want you to vote for Brexit but we'll bring down the government if we win! Extraordinary behaviour.  And Brexit leaders wonder why the markets are spooked by the prospect of exit?  

Embellishment of the truth is rife, and even some of the headline claims are simply downright lies.   Both sides have expressed the worst case scenario of the other event as an almost certain eventuality - so there's no real difference between them there.

I'll be voting for the side who tell the fewest outright and obvious lies in support of their economic claims.

MDS posted:

Interesting to see the strains within the Conservative party getting worse and worse.  An Conservative MP on TV today was pretty nakedly rubbishing Osborne and effectively saying that the number of rebel Tory MPs plus Labour would vote down any post-Brexit Budget. Not sure how any of this helps voters to decide on the main issue and I'm not at all sure he was helping the Brexit camp since he is effectively saying: I want you to vote for Brexit but we'll bring down the government if we win! Extraordinary behaviour.  And Brexit leaders wonder why the markets are spooked by the prospect of exit?  

I suspect that even their fellow Tories have had enough of the use of scare stories to stop people voting leave.  This was in response to Osbourne's latest intervention regarding him setting another austerity budget immediately after an exit vote; all a little desperate really.  Some of the 'debates' have been useful because they have at least allowed people to challenge both camps wth questions.

Don Atkinson posted:

Hungryhalibut posted:

But ask them to name a law they'd rather not have. The answer is usually, 'well, I can't hint of any offhand' or more simply, 'durr'.

Perhaps we should have an intelligence test before we are allowed to vote next Thursday ?

Many people simply vote from the heart, using their emotions to guide them. Is that wrong ?

And who gets to vote, those with low or those with high IQs?

Willy.

Don Atkinson posted:

Hungryhalibut posted:

But ask them to name a law they'd rather not have. The answer is usually, 'well, I can't hint of any offhand' or more simply, 'durr'.

Perhaps we should have an intelligence test before we are allowed to vote next Thursday ?

Many people simply vote from the heart, using their emotions to guide them. Is that wrong ?

Of course that's wrong. Emotions have no place in analyzing such a complex issue as this.

Huge posted:

Embellishment of the truth is rife, and even some of the headline claims are simply downright lies.   Both sides have expressed the worst case scenario of the other event as an almost certain eventuality - so there's no real difference between them there.

I'll be voting for the side who tell the fewest outright and obvious lies in support of their economic claims.

But how will you know to choose who is telling the fewest outright whoppers.

Half the lies they're telling us aren't even true....

naim_nymph posted:

Huge posted:

Embellishment of the truth is rife, and even some of the headline claims are simply downright lies.   Both sides have expressed the worst case scenario of the other event as an almost certain eventuality - so there's no real difference between them there.

I'll be voting for the side who tell the fewest outright and obvious lies in support of their economic claims.

But how will you know to choose who is telling the fewest outright whoppers.

Half the lies they're telling us aren't even true....

That's why I specified "obvious".

ALL the lies they're telling us are untrue (by definition).

(OK, I know that precisely defining 'truth' isn't exactly easy; but then if we let pure philosophy into the equation we'll all disappear up our own ...)

If we substitute "instinct" for "emotion" is that acceptable? Assuming of course that we have some instinct for spotting when we're being told lies. 

Willy. 

I said I wouldn't so aplogies in advance. I just watched Gordon Brown's Coventry Cathedral remarks advocating staying within the EU. The best summary I've seen or read to date on why you should stay. Very eloquent.

A lot of (the everyday) people (rather than politicians) on the leave side appear to be making decisions based on what they perceive the problems are in their community - lack of housing, over stretched NHS, low wages / high cost of living.  The thing is the EU don't do most of the things which could improve the "leave" voters communities, but they have pinned / blamed all their grievances on the EU and have been encouraged to do so by the rhetoric of the leave campaign.

The big problem with David Cameron's remain campaign is that to be truthful; he has to stand up and say "No actually that legitimate concern you have isn't the fault of the EU, its the fault of the government I lead". That would be suicide on a grand scale. Instead he has to rely on the "Yes its bad, but if we leave the EU it will be worse" argument.

Clay Bingham posted:

I said I wouldn't so aplogies in advance. I just watched Gordon Brown's Coventry Cathedral remarks advocating staying within the EU. The best summary I've seen or read to date on why you should stay. Very eloquent.

I'm going to get crucified here probably for this comment ... but I always found Gordon Brown to be a sensible measured man who talked a lot of sense.  Unfortunately everyone remembers (wrongly) him as the Prime Minister who destroyed the British economy...

Eloise posted:

Clay Bingham posted:

I said I wouldn't so aplogies in advance. I just watched Gordon Brown's Coventry Cathedral remarks advocating staying within the EU. The best summary I've seen or read to date on why you should stay. Very eloquent.

I'm going to get crucified here probably for this comment ... but I always found Gordon Brown to be a sensible measured man who talked a lot of sense.  Unfortunately everyone remembers (wrongly) him as the Prime Minister who destroyed the British economy...

As Chancellor he screwed the pension system pretty effectively.

But let by-gones be by-gones. He is talking a lot of sense about remaining. Pity old Corbyn can't put much conviction into his few appearances.

Eloise posted:

A lot of (the everyday) people (rather than politicians) on the leave side appear to be making decisions based on what they perceive the problems are in their community - lack of housing, over stretched NHS, low wages / high cost of living.  The thing is the EU don't do most of the things which could improve the "leave" voters communities, but they have pinned / blamed all their grievances on the EU and have been encouraged to do so by the rhetoric of the leave campaign.

The big problem with David Cameron's remain campaign is that to be truthful; he has to stand up and say "No actually that legitimate concern you have isn't the fault of the EU, its the fault of the government I lead". That would be suicide on a grand scale. Instead he has to rely on the "Yes its bad, but if we leave the EU it will be worse" argument.

Very true on many counts.

Okay ... no campaigning to day out of respect ... but I want to leave everyone (in the UK) with a thought.

Regardless if you are voting Leave or Remain ... I'm going to encourage everyone to vote on facts and to examine if their position is actually about Europe and the EU; or is it a protest against the government and the status quo of the British establishment?  And encouraged others to vote on that basis too.

Don't vote to leave Europe because of the state of the health service.  Don't vote to leave Europe because there are no opportunities for young people.  Don't vote to leave Europe because the UK parliamentary system is broken and needs fixing.

Vote to leave the EU because you think the changes will make a difference, while remembering that things won't change overnight and there will be a long period - year even - of uncertainty while changes are made and treaties and trading agreements are negotiated.

Eloise posted:

Okay ... no campaigning to day out of respect ... but I want to leave everyone (in the UK) with a thought.

Regardless if you are voting Leave or Remain ... I'm going to encourage everyone to vote on facts and to examine if their position is actually about Europe and the EU; or is it a protest against the government and the status quo of the British establishment?  And encouraged others to vote on that basis too.

Don't vote to leave Europe because of the state of the health service.  Don't vote to leave Europe because there are no opportunities for young people.  Don't vote to leave Europe because the UK parliamentary system is broken and needs fixing.

Vote to leave the EU because you think the changes will make a difference, while remembering that things won't change overnight and there will be a long period - years even - of uncertainty while changes are made and treaties and trading agreements are negotiated.

One tiny change and I agree with the need to vote etc.

Whilst "Leaving" will undoubtably make a difference, I don't think it will be for the better, but a referendum is a referendum.

How do you propose to get your "Don't vote to leave Europe because...." message (which I happen to agree with) across to the government or to the voters at the next general election ?

many of those whom I know intend to vote "Leave" are doing so because they see the EU and the Euro as a failed project that is about to collapse in much the same way as the USSR or even Yugoslavia. They want "out" in order to avoid the worst of such a disaster and its aftermath.

Logical, be part of the problem instead of part of the answer. 

Don Atkinson posted:

they see the EU and the Euro as a failed project that is about to collapse in much the same way as the USSR or even Yugoslavia.

And how many people died during the breakup of the USSR and Yugoslavia.

I know the exiteers sneer and ask, "so when will WWIII breakout", perhaps somebody should ask them how many tens of thousands of dead would be an accepable price to pay.

Clay Bingham posted:

Logical, be part of the problem instead of part of the answer. 

Problems is what they want. If we vote leave, the exiteers will be hoping/gambling the EU will breakup, after all, it will be in our interests.

fatcat posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

they see the EU and the Euro as a failed project that is about to collapse in much the same way as the USSR or even Yugoslavia.

And how many people died during the breakup of the USSR and Yugoslavia.

I know the exiteers sneer and ask, "so when will WWIII breakout", perhaps somebody should ask them how many tens of thousands of dead would be an accepable price to pay.

Just to be clear, they (these are not my principles) do not particularly want  to see the EU fail or be the cause of failure, they simply consider it inevitable regardless of  our referendum.

Now, I don't consider it inevitable, nor do I consider the consequences - were it to happen - would be similar to the USSR break-up.