Are we sleep-walking out of Europe ?

Don Atkinson posted:

fatcat posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

they see the EU and the Euro as a failed project that is about to collapse in much the same way as the USSR or even Yugoslavia.

And how many people died during the breakup of the USSR and Yugoslavia.

I know the exiteers sneer and ask, "so when will WWIII breakout", perhaps somebody should ask them how many tens of thousands of dead would be an accepable price to pay.

Just to be clear, they (these are not my principles) do not particularly want  to see the EU fail or be the cause of failure, they simply consider it inevitable regardless of  our referendum.

Now, I don't consider it inevitable, nor do I consider the consequences - were it to happen - would be similar to the USSR break-up.

I wasn’t suggesting the out voters want to see the EU fail, as I wasn’t suggesting the out voters are nutters. I was referring to the people with power and influence who are trying to persuade the general public to vote out.

My wife’s just received a leaflet headed “OFFICIAL INFORMATION ABOUT THE REFERENDUM ON 23 JUNE 2016”

Sub heading reads “THE EUROPEAN UNION AND YOUR FAMILY: THE FACTS”

 First fact. Britain’s official bill for EU membership is £19 billion per year. £350 million every week.

I wonder if they’re shooting themselves in the foot by continuing with this claim, it’s been very well publicised that this figure is incorrect (a lie). Surely people will suspect the other claims (facts) are also lies.

I can exclusively reveal that Kate Adey will be at the Southampton count for the Beeb.

C.

Christopher_M posted:

I can exclusively reveal that Kate Adey will be at the Southampton count for the Beeb.

C.

I'm inclined to associate her with reports from war zones, Chris.  Are you implying that the count in Southampton might get out-of-hand? 

MDS posted:

Christopher_M posted:

I can exclusively reveal that Kate Adey will be at the Southampton count for the Beeb.

C.

I'm inclined to associate her with reports from war zones, Chris.  Are you implying that the count in Southampton might get out-of-hand? 

Ha, no. Southampton and Tripoli, there are two words you seldom see in the same sentence.

The Beeb are spreading their big guns around the eleven regional centres, my source divulged, with the biggest reserved for Manchester.

C.

Well, Chris, if the Beeb deploy Orla Guerin I'll know we're on the point of civil unrest. She seems to travel the world's most troubled regions and seems to have the demeanour that is well suited. 

Yup  ;-)

On a separate tack, the late Bob Worcester was quoted in my newspaper recently as having said, 'Don't knows don't vote'. This worried me.

C.

Where I work a lot of young women appear to be for the remain decision; its not really surprising since they are thinking of a stable future financially then rather risk a certain dip in financial dip; even if Britain voted out and emerged financially better question remains how long will the the financial dip (austerity) last?  As to immigration issue that is still irrelevant in wonderful Devon!  

Eloise posted:

Regardless if you are voting Leave or Remain ... I'm going to encourage everyone to vote on facts and to examine if their position is actually about Europe and the EU; or is it a protest against the government and the status quo of the British establishment?  And encouraged others to vote on that basis too.

Don't vote to leave Europe because of the state of the health service.  Don't vote to leave Europe because there are no opportunities for young people.  Don't vote to leave Europe because the UK parliamentary system is broken and needs fixing.

Vote to leave the EU because you think the changes will make a difference, while remembering that things won't change overnight and there will be a long period - year even - of uncertainty while changes are made and treaties and trading agreements are negotiated.

Nice impassioned plea.

One useful exercise people may like to try is to eliminate all exposure to British-based media for a few days. This will remove all radio, television and newspaper reports that come included with rhetoric and opinion on the various EU membership topics.  If you then concentrate only on factual information, found in books or online resources (journals, EU websites) it is a refreshing approach in evaluating 'the facts’ which has been such a big theme in the overall campaigns.  It’s okay to look at historical or foreign media reports, as this was created before a referendum was conceived. Of course the U.K is not exclusive in this referenda concept and you’ll see reports of other member states maybe having their own one day.  Initially I’d sought after facts and information on the positives for ‘Remain’.  This could include some of the consumer protection laws found through ec.europa.eu .  Looking at such information you get a sense of what or how legislations or directives come about. Items emerge on issues ranging from taxation of savings income in the form of interest payments, to the approval and market surveillance of two- or three-wheel vehicles and quadricycles.   It may become tedious after a while though to read such information.  Other positives are civil protection and bits to do with the environment. 

But then some less positive sides emerge. At a humanitarian level, there are reports of the EU trade barriers that will disadvantage African agricultural trade, having a negative impact on some of the poorest in the world.  Although this needs to be taken in context or seen in precise detail.  Also if you were too young at the time to be aware of this, in 1999 a major fraud scandal saw the resignation of the head of the European Commission and all associate commissioners. Following this there have been a series of further scandals, one resembling the UK parliamentary expenses scandal, and the more recent MEP cash for influences case.  There are further reports or suggestions of on-going deception and EU budget fraud taking place.  See also ‘Transparency International’ items relating to EU integrity and ethics.  With such a vast organistion (there are 16 portions to the EU) there are concerns over malpractice, corruption and exploiting of these systems by officials.  Statements coming from European Council and Parliament suggest intentions to increase political power and control.  It makes the matter more understandable, as to why there is concern to have such a dominant structure of governance, open to corruptibility or rogue individuals to operate, residing alongside all of our existing governments.  So when a statement is seen originating from an EU council/ commission member indicating further political integration, but no detail about why this will benefit citizens, there are suspicious undertones or even sinister to have individuals wanting more power and dominance.

But all of these things will be down to personal perceptions.  If the only issue for you is economics and personal finances, the case for ‘Remain’ is most convincing.  But if you perceive other risk factors as above to do with organisational greed, megalomania and the future direction of the EU institutions, it becomes more of an open debate. 

So in this bizarre twist, I’d started out at 'Remain' but then by seeing more fact-based information, moved to ‘Undecided’ (perhaps ‘Leave’ later on).  Did anyone else experience this?  The only other option is of course 'none of the above' / no vote?

Couldn't agree more.

Sadly, the average voter will have neither the time nor inclination to do some research into the facts behind the media outpourings.

Many of the potential "Leave" votes will come from the older generation, as a reaction to the creeping sense of the ongoing creation of a European Supersate, which, of course, was far from what we signed up for originally.

As an aside, it is interesting that the portrait of a united Europe, with Britain portrayed as a troublesome naysayer, also seems far from the truth, with indications that voters in several countries are beginning to think along similar referendum lines.

Disposable Hero posted:

So in this bizarre twist, I’d started out at 'Remain' but then by seeing more fact-based information, moved to ‘Undecided’ (perhaps ‘Leave’ later on).  Did anyone else experience this?  The only other option is of course 'none of the above' / no vote?

Not me! I started off as a strong 'Remain' supporter, and remain so.

if anything, my resolve to vote for the 'remain' campaign has been strengthened by the barrage of half-truths and downright untruths (I'm going to call them outright lies) by the leading BREXIT campaigners. Even if one doesn't want to spend the time to look at the arguments on both sides in detail, one only has to look at and compare the list of supporters (in both the politiccal and Business arenas)  of either side to gauge what is likely to be best economically for the UK.

Most of the reputable mainstream politicians from all mainstream parties (with the exception of UKIP whose only reason for existence is to campaign for a 'BREXIT' vote) in favour of remaining in the EU. A handful of maverick MPs, political opportunists, and a number of disreputable characters on the far right wing of  in favour of leaving the EU.  There are a few individual politicians whose views I generally respect but don't agree with on this occasion, who argue legitimately for a 'Leave' vote, but they are few and far between. 

The CBI, Trade Unions and most (if not all) of the major financial institutions (including the impartial - yes they really are!) Bank of England in favour of remaining in the EU. James Dyson and a handful of others in favour of leaving the EU.

And finally, the great "free" right wing British press led by Rupert Murdoch who are in favour of an exit.

yes, I certainly know how I will vote. 

I was Remain until I saw the Operation Black Vote seesaw poster.

Oscillatewildly posted:

I was Remain until I saw the Operation Black Vote seesaw poster.

And that poster alone has made you decide to switch your vote? I am almost speechless.

Your support of the 'Remain' position must have been very tenuous indeed.

By the way, have you seen the UKIP's 'Breaking Point" poster? Even Michael Gove was said to have shuddered when he saw this, and George Osborne (who is hardly a card carrying communist) compared it to Nazi propaganda at its worst.

Hmack posted:

Disposable Hero posted:

So in this bizarre twist, I’d started out at 'Remain' but then by seeing more fact-based information, moved to ‘Undecided’ (perhaps ‘Leave’ later on).  Did anyone else experience this?  The only other option is of course 'none of the above' / no vote?

Not me! I started off as a strong 'Remain' supporter, and remain so.

if anything, my resolve to vote for the 'remain' campaign has been strengthened by the barrage of half-truths and downright untruths (I'm going to call them outright lies) by the leading BREXIT campaigners. Even if one doesn't want to spend the time to look at the arguments on both sides in detail, one only has to look at and compare the list of supporters (in both the politiccal and Business arenas)  of either side to gauge what is likely to be best economically for the UK.

Most of the reputable mainstream politicians from all mainstream parties (with the exception of UKIP whose only reason for existence is to campaign for a 'BREXIT' vote) in favour of remaining in the EU. A handful of maverick MPs, political opportunists, and a number of disreputable characters on the far right wing of  in favour of leaving the EU.  There are a few individual politicians whose views I generally respect but don't agree with on this occasion, who argue legitimately for a 'Leave' vote, but they are few and far between. 

The CBI, Trade Unions and most (if not all) of the major financial institutions (including the impartial - yes they really are!) Bank of England in favour of remaining in the EU. James Dyson and a handful of others in favour of leaving the EU.

And finally, the great "free" right wing British press led by Rupert Murdoch who are in favour of an exit.

yes, I certainly know how I will vote. 

Yep, these are much in line with my way of thinking.

Hmack posted:

Oscillatewildly posted:

I was Remain until I saw the Operation Black Vote seesaw poster.

And that poster alone has made you decide to switch your vote? I am almost speechless.

Your support of the 'Remain' position must have been very tenuous indeed.

By the way, have you seen the UKIP's 'Breaking Point" poster? Even Michael Gove was said to have shuddered when he saw this, and George Osborne (who is hardly a card carrying communist) compared it to Nazi propaganda at its worst.

 

---

That's my point. Wonder what Warsi thinks?

Also, that excrement stirring posters come in all colours.

Cheers,

OW

Romi posted:

Where I work a lot of young women appear to be for the remain decision; its not really surprising since they are thinking of a stable future financially then rather risk a certain dip in financial dip; even if Britain voted out and emerged financially better question remains how long will the the financial dip (austerity) last?  As to immigration issue that is still irrelevant in wonderful Devon!  

Immigration is not irrelevant in the wonderful Devon I live in. Things are changing very quickly down here. A lot of people are fleeing to this area from other parts of the country to escape the areas heavily populated by immigrants because it's all become too much. I work in people's houses and the majority of people here are voting out. Me included.

I think the EU should hold a referendum on if the UK is too stupid to remain. I just don't think we're intelligent enough to grasp any factual argument. Let alone pick up a history book. Perhaps that's not entirely fair. Ignorance and laziness can be interpreted as rank stupidity. 

Maybe we'll save them the trouble by throwing ourselves out first? That'll teach 'em!

Drewy posted:

Romi posted:

Where I work a lot of young women appear to be for the remain decision; its not really surprising since they are thinking of a stable future financially then rather risk a certain dip in financial dip; even if Britain voted out and emerged financially better question remains how long will the the financial dip (austerity) last?  As to immigration issue that is still irrelevant in wonderful Devon!  

Immigration is not irrelevant in the wonderful Devon I live in. Things are changing very quickly down here. A lot of people are fleeing to this area from other parts of the country to escape the areas heavily populated by immigrants because it's all become too much. I work in people's houses and the majority of people here are voting out. Me included.

 

A racists' refuge. Nice. 

Drewy posted:

 A lot of people are fleeing to this area from other parts of the country.

 

My inlaws did that a couple of weeks ago. I think you'll find they're called holidaymakers.

Hungryhalibut posted:

Drewy posted:

Romi posted:

Where I work a lot of young women appear to be for the remain decision; its not really surprising since they are thinking of a stable future financially then rather risk a certain dip in financial dip; even if Britain voted out and emerged financially better question remains how long will the the financial dip (austerity) last?  As to immigration issue that is still irrelevant in wonderful Devon!  

Immigration is not irrelevant in the wonderful Devon I live in. Things are changing very quickly down here. A lot of people are fleeing to this area from other parts of the country to escape the areas heavily populated by immigrants because it's all become too much. I work in people's houses and the majority of people here are voting out. Me included.

 

A racists' refuge. Nice. 

Racists? I'm referring to out of control overpopulation. I thought someone like you might bring that up. Fool!

fatcat posted:

Drewy posted:

 A lot of people are fleeing to this area from other parts of the country.

 

My inlaws did that a couple of weeks ago. I think you'll find they're called holidaymakers.

Hungryhalibut posted:

Drewy posted:

Romi posted:

Where I work a lot of young women appear to be for the remain decision; its not really surprising since they are thinking of a stable future financially then rather risk a certain dip in financial dip; even if Britain voted out and emerged financially better question remains how long will the the financial dip (austerity) last?  As to immigration issue that is still irrelevant in wonderful Devon!  

Immigration is not irrelevant in the wonderful Devon I live in. Things are changing very quickly down here. A lot of people are fleeing to this area from other parts of the country to escape the areas heavily populated by immigrants because it's all become too much. I work in people's houses and the majority of people here are voting out. Me included.

 

A racists' refuge. Nice. 

Population expansion is a problem for Europe and for the UK as well.

The principal reasons for this population increase seem to be :

• People living longer
• Net migration (immigration at present)

We need to be realistic about the population we can support, the infrastructure needed and the rate at which it can be provided. We also need to rationalise/accommodate the cultural differences within this expanding population.

I consider we stand a better chance of success within Europe rather than alone. It won't be easy either way and Merkel screwed things up earlier this year showing us just how difficult some aspects of this challenge will be.

Here's a thought.

Given that there are major problems within the EU, particularly as regards the economies of the less well off member countries, which will increasingly require bailing out by the rest.

Further that the Eurozone is stagnant, with one of the lowest growth rates worldwide.

So........................if the UK was at present not a member of the EU, and we were about to have a referendum as to whether to join................which way would you vote? 

Agree population is a problem everywhere but look at the size of our country. We're more heavily populated than most other European countries and to me that's a massive problem.

i don't think for one minute we will leave the EU but an out vote is a damn good protest vote. 

dave marshall posted:

Here's a thought.

Given that there are major problems within the EU, particularly as regards the economies of the less well off member countries, which will increasingly require bailing out by the rest.

Further that the Eurozone is stagnant, with one of the lowest growth rates worldwide.

So........................if the UK was at present not a member of the EU, and we were about to have a referendum as to whether to join................which way would you vote? 

 

That's a very good question.

Drewy posted:

Romi posted:

Where I work a lot of young women appear to be for the remain decision; its not really surprising since they are thinking of a stable future financially then rather risk a certain dip in financial dip; even if Britain voted out and emerged financially better question remains how long will the the financial dip (austerity) last?  As to immigration issue that is still irrelevant in wonderful Devon!  

Immigration is not irrelevant in the wonderful Devon I live in. Things are changing very quickly down here. A lot of people are fleeing to this area from other parts of the country to escape the areas heavily populated by immigrants because it's all become too much. I work in people's houses and the majority of people here are voting out. Me included.

 

An area from where all the people who find immigrants to be "too much" have left sounds just wonderful. On the other hand, the refuge to which they're fleeing sounds noxious. You can keep it.