Are we sleep-walking out of Europe ?

Drewy posted:

Hungryhalibut posted:

Drewy posted:

Romi posted:

Where I work a lot of young women appear to be for the remain decision; its not really surprising since they are thinking of a stable future financially then rather risk a certain dip in financial dip; even if Britain voted out and emerged financially better question remains how long will the the financial dip (austerity) last?  As to immigration issue that is still irrelevant in wonderful Devon!  

Immigration is not irrelevant in the wonderful Devon I live in. Things are changing very quickly down here. A lot of people are fleeing to this area from other parts of the country to escape the areas heavily populated by immigrants because it's all become too much. I work in people's houses and the majority of people here are voting out. Me included.

 

A racists' refuge. Nice. 

Racists? I'm referring to out of control overpopulation. I thought someone like you might bring that up. Fool!

 

 

If the only issue is the overpopulation, your reference to "heavily populated by immigrants" makes no sense. Should you not have said just "heavily populated"? My sense is that HH is just calling things as they are. (Will not althese people fleeing result in Devon becoming overpopulated, too?)

winkyincanada posted:

Drewy posted:

Hungryhalibut posted:

Drewy posted:

Romi posted:

Where I work a lot of young women appear to be for the remain decision; its not really surprising since they are thinking of a stable future financially then rather risk a certain dip in financial dip; even if Britain voted out and emerged financially better question remains how long will the the financial dip (austerity) last?  As to immigration issue that is still irrelevant in wonderful Devon!  

Immigration is not irrelevant in the wonderful Devon I live in. Things are changing very quickly down here. A lot of people are fleeing to this area from other parts of the country to escape the areas heavily populated by immigrants because it's all become too much. I work in people's houses and the majority of people here are voting out. Me included.

 

A racists' refuge. Nice. 

Racists? I'm referring to out of control overpopulation. I thought someone like you might bring that up. Fool!

 

 

If the only issue is the overpopulation, your reference to "heavily populated by immigrants" makes no sense. Should you not have said just "heavily populated"? My sense is that HH is just calling things as they are. (Will not althese people fleeing result in Devon becoming overpopulated, too?)

Yes it is result in Devon becoming overpopulated too, that's why I said Immigration is not irrelevant here. 

HH is not calling things as they are. There are no racists down here, just people who've had enough. You and him just make pointless comments and you both know it. 

Drewy posted:

Hungryhalibut posted:

Drewy posted:

Romi posted:

Where I work a lot of young women appear to be for the remain decision; its not really surprising since they are thinking of a stable future financially then rather risk a certain dip in financial dip; even if Britain voted out and emerged financially better question remains how long will the the financial dip (austerity) last?  As to immigration issue that is still irrelevant in wonderful Devon!  

Immigration is not irrelevant in the wonderful Devon I live in. Things are changing very quickly down here. A lot of people are fleeing to this area from other parts of the country to escape the areas heavily populated by immigrants because it's all become too much. I work in people's houses and the majority of people here are voting out. Me included.

 

A racists' refuge. Nice. 

Racists? I'm referring to out of control overpopulation. I thought someone like you might bring that up. Fool!

 

 

I'd rather be a fool than a racist. If the comment was not racist, why mention immigrants at all?   As Winky said, why not just say people are moving away from overpopulated areas? And what exactly does 'someone like you' mean? How do you know what I'm like? Perhaps Hope Not Hate need to do some work in Devon. 

So are we not allowed to use the word "immigrant" now in case we are labelled racist by you? 

Use whatever words you like, but just think about what they infer. I've explained why I wrote what I did, and if your post had not given me cause I would not have written it. Anyway, at no point did I suggest that you yourself are racist; I don't know you and I cannot comment. What I said was that those fleeing immigrants are racist. You may or may not agree with them. 

You deliberately chose to take it that way to give yourself a point to make. It's as simple as that. There was no need. 

the majority of people trying to get into the uk  are not skilled but male between 17 - early 20s taking jobs from are own  youngsters   ,these are our future ,look after are own first

Drewy posted:

Agree population is a problem everywhere but look at the size of our country. We're more heavily populated than most other European countries and to me that's a massive problem.

i don't think for one minute we will leave the EU but an out vote is a damn good protest vote. 

So, you'd throw away all the benefits of EU membership to make a protest? Then what happens?

My perception is the people who intend to vote to leave the EU are doing so because they're not content with their lot, that somehow the change is going to make their situation much better. So let's blame immigration. It's naive to assume that an exit isn't going to have an immediate negative impact on our economy, or that the politicians urging Brexit are doing so for anyone's benefit but their own.

Understood Tony and I've considered everything. Made my decision years ago and I'm sticking with it. Just thought I'd try and balance the argument a bit on this thread as everyone seems to be in voters. 

This thread has been an interesting read and more informative than the bluff and bluster from the media. 

When my Grandparents came to this country back in the 1950's they were accused of all the same things of taking all the jobs etc, whenever there is wholesale change people become scared, scared for their livelihoods scared that their way of life will change these are understandable fears when you are living from payday to payday. Today there is as we all no a threat from Radical Muslims the last years events in Paris and Brussels alone tell us this and again it is understandable to have fears because of these events but these fears are all being massively exaggerated and exploited by the Brexit campaign who have under their umbrella some extremely nasty groups some extremely odious career politicians who would lead us into what is essentially unknown territory to further their own political careers and along with that give credence to the at best mildly racist views of Farage and his mates. I do not pretend I have the answer to the problem of immigration and lets be honest it is a problem but I do know it isn't pulling up the drawbridge and leading us into unknown economic waters that could have as much if not more of an effect on all our livelihoods and all our way of lives as immigration alledgedly has and will no doubt radicalise a few more muslims as well.

james n posted:

This thread has been an interesting read and more informative than the bluff and bluster from the media. 

Have a look at i paper. It gives arguments from both sides and credits you with enough intelligence to make your own mind up. No proprietor either.

C.

winkyincanada posted:

Drewy posted:

Hungryhalibut posted:

Drewy posted:

Romi posted:

Where I work a lot of young women appear to be for the remain decision; its not really surprising since they are thinking of a stable future financially then rather risk a certain dip in financial dip; even if Britain voted out and emerged financially better question remains how long will the the financial dip (austerity) last?  As to immigration issue that is still irrelevant in wonderful Devon!  

Immigration is not irrelevant in the wonderful Devon I live in. Things are changing very quickly down here. A lot of people are fleeing to this area from other parts of the country to escape the areas heavily populated by immigrants because it's all become too much. I work in people's houses and the majority of people here are voting out. Me included.

 

A racists' refuge. Nice. 

Racists? I'm referring to out of control overpopulation. I thought someone like you might bring that up. Fool!

 

 

If the only issue is the overpopulation, your reference to "heavily populated by immigrants" makes no sense. Should you not have said just "heavily populated"? My sense is that HH is just calling things as they are. (Will not althese people fleeing result in Devon becoming overpopulated, too?)

Yes with immigrants not from Cornwall the Cornish nationalists will be up in arms

Drewy posted:

i don't think for one minute we will leave the EU but an out vote is a damn good protest vote. 

Yes I realise that I'm verging on having Goodwin's law quoted at me ... but you realise don't you that a lot of Germany's voted for the Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei in the 1920s as a protest?  Protest yes if you want.  But realise that your protest WILL have consequences for you and everyone.

Perhaps the UK will flourish outside the EU. But for the people who make the decisions the UK is already flourishing.  Pay for the "Haves" is rising, mostly on the backs of the work of the "Have nots".  Its not the EU which is making that happen and in parts the EU prevents the Haves exploiting the workers even more.  I'm not saying all employment law is going to be reversed, but a lot of workers protections have come from being part of the EU.

Philip Green, Mike Ashley, Dominic Goodwin and their ilk are not the product of the EU; they are the product of the UK governments' decisions.

Already the Conservative government is trying to reduce the power of the workers by controlling the unions further.  They are also trying to reduce the number of MPs by reducing the number of urban constituencies which will have the effect on reducing the number of Labour dominated constituencies and help keep them in power longer. 

Yes, immigrants are taking the low paid jobs ... but the problem isn't the immigrants ... its that the low paid jobs are allowed to exist.

People are voting Brexit in their droves because their lives are poor due to successive governments' failure to invest in society. When the mines and the factories closed there was nothing to replace them. No skilled labour market exists for the "working classes". You either go to university and hope you get a career in finance or STEM industries; or you become a cleaner / barista / call centre worker. You used to be proud of your council house; now you are told you are worthless unless you can own your own home. You used to be proud to work hard and be able to look after your family; now large portions of society work full time and often in more than one job ... and have to choose between the food on the table and heating the house.

All these changes are the result of UK government policies NOT the EU.

Nigel Farage really does think the EU is bad.  But not because it makes your life bad.  He doesn't like that part of the EU means we have to listen to an authority above the UK.  That we have to listen when they say this law is unfair or that law is unfair.  But the EU isn't just about what is good for the UK, its about what is good for Europe.  There may be a net cost to the UK, but that cost ignores the hidden advantages.  Its like the old adage: give a man a fish and he can eat for a day; teach him to fish and he can eat all his life (though perhaps fish is a bad analogy when defending the EU).  Nigel Farage is a "little" man who wants complete control of a little country.  He's the same as those who stand up on Dragon's Den and when offered £250,000 investment needed to make their product take off in return for 25% of the profits say no, I may only make £1,000,000 instead of £100,000,000 from this products, but I'd rather keep 100% share. 

And the EU is NOT undemocratic.  Just like the UK, its a representational democracy.  We vote for our MP who then supports our government, and then our government works for an EU which fits what they feel is best.  Yes there are compromises, some decisions don't go our way.  But what Gove, Johnson and Leave.eu want is MORE power.  Less accountability.  Sounds more like a dictatorship than democracy to me!

There is a complaint that some companies undercut the UK in manufacturing because they ignore the EU directives which are supposed to ensure a even playing field.  Well first off if we leave the EU; UK manufacturing will still broadly have to follow those directives to sell to the EU market as well as many of them having equivalents in US.  But second, don't have a hissy fit and throw your toys out the pram; the government should be helping to ensure everyone follows the directives.  The UK should be showing stronger leadership in the EU, not threatening to leave. 

Eloise posted:

Yes, immigrants are taking the low paid jobs ... but the problem isn't the immigrants ... its that the low paid jobs are allowed to exist.

 

There was an interesting "strawberries" news item yesterday. The strawberry pickers were all non-UK because of the pay. Choices. More subsidies for farmers. More expensive strawberries. 

Bananahead posted:

Eloise posted:

Yes, immigrants are taking the low paid jobs ... but the problem isn't the immigrants ... its that the low paid jobs are allowed to exist.

There was an interesting "strawberries" news item yesterday. The strawberry pickers were all non-UK because of the pay. Choices. More subsidies for farmers. More expensive strawberries. 

Third choice ... less profits for the Supermarkets!  

The EU Referendum: Whoever wins ... we loose!

On a more serious note. Whatever happens I just hope I can still afford the Nac-n372

Drewy posted:

On a more serious note. Whatever happens I just hope I can still afford the Nac-n372

Are you in Europe or UK (perhaps I should ask Europe or England)?   

Labour failing isn't a reason to remain.

Primary legislation includes the Equality Act, Employment Rights Act, and National Minimum Wage Act. The UK has shown willing and action to go beyond EU directives. Not liking Conservative isn't a reason for the EU; it is down to Labour, other parties, and us.

Controlling immigration doesn't mean no immigration, nor is it racist. The peddling of this view, continued by Remain, is a pernicious influence. For the record I'm the first born of an immigrant and I'm mixed race; my blood is Indian, Chinese, Portuguese, French, and English. UKIP has gained ground because of failure by the main parties. Leave or Remain, they and the EU have a choice; bury their heads in the sand or deal with it -  the former will push more people to UKIP and beyond.

There are vile characters and posters on both sides.

The EU is not Europe. You don't have to like an administration to like an area or country it covers.

Uncertainty reigns over both sides/options; both depend on the behaviour of other countries - a reformed EU?

Remain should win - use of the Government machine, change being a harder sell etc. It is a matter of how close Leave come.

Cheers,

OW

dave marshall posted:

As an aside, it is interesting that the portrait of a united Europe, with Britain portrayed as a troublesome naysayer, also seems far from the truth, with indications that voters in several countries are beginning to think along similar referendum lines.

Other member states actually have more of a grievance and reasons to oppose EU policy in recent years especially under such conditions of Euro-zone austerity and lack of progress to return to economic stability, prospects for the younger generation being included in that.

Hmack posted:

Disposable Hero posted:

So in this bizarre twist, I’d started out at 'Remain' but then by seeing more fact-based information, moved to ‘Undecided’ (perhaps ‘Leave’ later on).  Did anyone else experience this?  The only other option is of course 'none of the above' / no vote?

Not me! I started off as a strong 'Remain' supporter, and remain so.

if anything, my resolve to vote for the 'remain' campaign has been strengthened by the barrage of half-truths and downright untruths (I'm going to call them outright lies) by the leading BREXIT campaigners. Even if one doesn't want to spend the time to look at the arguments on both sides in detail, one only has to look at and compare the list of supporters (in both the politiccal and Business arenas)  of either side to gauge what is likely to be best economically for the UK.

Most of the reputable mainstream politicians from all mainstream parties (with the exception of UKIP whose only reason for existence is to campaign for a 'BREXIT' vote) in favour of remaining in the EU. A handful of maverick MPs, political opportunists, and a number of disreputable characters on the far right wing of  in favour of leaving the EU.  There are a few individual politicians whose views I generally respect but don't agree with on this occasion, who argue legitimately for a 'Leave' vote, but they are few and far between. 

The CBI, Trade Unions and most (if not all) of the major financial institutions (including the impartial - yes they really are!) Bank of England in favour of remaining in the EU. James Dyson and a handful of others in favour of leaving the EU.

And finally, the great "free" right wing British press led by Rupert Murdoch who are in favour of an exit.

yes, I certainly know how I will vote. 

Trade Unions are (in my perspective) worth giving credence to as they deal with their members interests.  Some other unions are opposed to remaining in the EU.  Financial institutions are less compelling as they issue statements from a large scale financial viewpoint which is essentially removed from a human level.   Maverick MPs aren't to be dismissed though, wouldn't anyone acknowledge that sometimes the 'quality' of an idea or opinion, is more valuable than the 'quantity' that adhere to some mainstream view, as you indicate these reputable mainstream politicians?

Eloise posted:

People are voting Brexit in their droves because their lives are poor due to successive governments' failure to invest in society. When the mines and the factories closed there was nothing to replace them. No skilled labour market exists for the "working classes". You either go to university and hope you get a career in finance or STEM industries; or you become a cleaner / barista / call centre worker. You used to be proud of your council house; now you are told you are worthless unless you can own your own home. You used to be proud to work hard and be able to look after your family; now large portions of society work full time and often in more than one job ... and have to choose between the food on the table and heating the house. 

And this is, really, the essence of the challenges we face as a nation.  We are deflecting our anger at the wrong target because it's our own political establishment's failures that have created the problems we face in the UK.  But more to the point, we have now an extreme right wing government who are hollowing out our public goods and dismantling our society in the pursuit of Randian ideals, and they our doing it on the votes of less than a quarter of those registered to vote.  

But what does this say about all of us?  The Tories rule by default not because of the people who voted for them, but because of those who could not be bothered to actually go out and vote on the lazy pretext that all the parties are one of the same when, actually, they are not.  That is not to say the Labour Party should be let off the hook, or the Unions for that matter.  Both have abandoned the working class over the last twenty years or so: abandoned them to the market and abandoned them to fend for themselves.  No wonder they are so angry.

And so we look to direct the blame for our lack of civic engagement (and the resultant mess that our country has become) on Muslims, immigrants, muslim immigrants, Eastern Europeans and anyone else as long as we don't have to take a hard look at ourselves.  Put bluntly, we have collectively become a nation of losers and we won't even remotely begin to solve our deeply intrenched problems until we start taking responsibility and stop blaming everyone else.

David

Just voted, 7 times.  Leave.

Good luck for today!

Not that it will make a difference to anyone, but I find myself rather hoping that you fine folks in the UK vote to remain in the EU.  I think you have a tremendous amount yet to offer, and both sides will be the poorer if the vote is to leave. 

Perhaps another way to say it is that the UK is one of the essential ingredients to the EU, and is one of the nations that truly makes the EU capable of being far more than the sum of its parts. 

Traditional greeting in NI on poll days was "vote early, vote often". Unsurprisingly photo ID has been mandatory here for some years....

Willy.