Are we sleep-walking out of Europe ?

winkyincanada posted:

dayjay posted:

 

I agree with you that there are far more factors at play (or at least that their should be), but you're being naive if you think that a fair chunk (but no, not all) of the "Leavers" weren't motivated by distrust and/or hatred for people "not like them". The future of your country should not be decided by xenophobes and racists. It is a sad day for all of us.

Strange that you refer to the UK as "your country", yet have decided that it is a sad day for all of "us"

Bottom line is that this was far too important a decision, and it is far too complex, for it to be decided by referendum. Your leadership is weak and spineless.

It's known as democracy.......... you seem to be implying that the citizens of the UK, or anywhere else, for that matter, should not, once in a while, have the opportunity to decide on constitutional matters, rather than have their usual limited say in party politics, come the recurring general elections.

On a practical side: what's going to change for Naim customers from the EU? Will there be a statement from Naim?

jfritzen posted:

On a practical side: what's going to change for Naim customers from the EU? Will there be a statement from Naim?

Blimey, give it a while - some of us have been up all night, it's a bit soon to know what on earth is going to happen with the underlying market compexities required to answer questions like that!

dave marshall posted:

winkyincanada posted:

dayjay posted:

 

I agree with you that there are far more factors at play (or at least that their should be), but you're being naive if you think that a fair chunk (but no, not all) of the "Leavers" weren't motivated by distrust and/or hatred for people "not like them". The future of your country should not be decided by xenophobes and racists. It is a sad day for all of us.

Strange that you refer to the UK as "your country", yet have decided that it is a sad day for all of "us"

Bottom line is that this was far too important a decision, and it is far too complex, for it to be decided by referendum. Your leadership is weak and spineless.

It's known as democracy.......... you seem to be implying that the citizens of the UK, or anywhere else, for that matter, should not, once in a while, have the opportunity to decide on constitutional matters, rather than have their usual limited say in party politics, come the recurring general elections.

 

The repercussions with respect to the global economy will be widespread. The poor will suffer the most. The rich, as ever will be just fine. I'm sad, not just because of the impact on our personal wealth and employment prospects, but also because of the net loss on the well being of everybody including those less able to cope. In the UK, businesses will close and people will be put out of work.

I understand the concept of a democracy, and flawed as it is, support it as the least-worst option. But for most things I rely on my elected representative to act on my behalf. Not long ago here we a populist-driven referendum on a fairly simple consumption tax issue (complex and fair(?) Vs simple and cheap plus Provincial Vs Federal control). People voted against their self interest, mainly because of lack of comprehension and distrust. The government should have had the spine to just stick to their previous position. The outcome of the referendum was bad for everyone.

As a UK Citizen, it is a big shock to leave the EU, but I think we must try to remain optimistic.... 

Well, being a British national living in an EU country I suppose I now need to go and queue at the immigration office...

the only thing that is clear right now is that nobody knows what the impact will really be over the next months and years. Or when the UK will actually exit and on what terms.

Never have I been more ashamed to have been born British

winkyincanada posted:

Seeing the early results, it seems the UK is stupider, more racist, more selfish, more paranoid and more delusional than I imagined in my worst nightmares. I'm now kind of hoping they do vote to leave. The rest of the world might be better off without them.

That applies to c.17m of the c.46m population entitled to a vote.

It will take a change of Government to implement their wishes.

I'm not sure how such a Government can be elected.

Hmack posted:

Well, It is beginning to appear as though the UK may well have voted for an exit from the EU.  I sincerely hope that this turns out not to be the case, but I am becoming increasingly pessimistic.

I have to say that never in my life have I felt so disenfranchised in respect of the political scene in the UK. It appears that a large number of left wing labour supporters in the heartland of England may have swung the vote in favour of BREXIT as a result of a mixture of their distrust of the current UK Government in particular and politicians in general on the one hand, and misguided intolerance and fear on the other. Ironically, what they will achieve is a dramatic swing to the right in respect of the ruling Conservative party (and a party that was pretty right wing to begin with) and an extended period of economic, social and political turmoil. 

There are a number of likely follow up consequences of a vote (no matter how narrow) in favour of BREXIT. The positions of David Cameron,  George Osborne  and a number of other senior Conservative cabinet members will be completely untenable.  If, as seems likely, they feel compelled to resign, a general election will have to be triggered, leading to yet more economic uncertainty and instability. Who will lead the Conservative party into an election? Surely not Boris Johnson! or Michael Gove! Their campaigns have been so vitriolic in respect of the majority of their party that I cannot believe that the wounds they have created can be healed so quickly.

We may also be seeing the beginning of the demise of the UK.

As was to be expected, the constituencies in Scotland have almost completely voted overwhelmingly in favour of remaining in the EU. I find it difficult to believe that there will not be a follow up national referendum in Scotland. And this time, I believe that the vote will be one for independence. This may well not dismay the majority of people in England and Wales who have voted for an EU exit. They may well view Scotland and its people in much the same way as they do the foreign 'invaders' from Europe, and say 'good riddance'. However, it does dismay me. And my main reason for predicting the break up of the UK, is that having been a lifelong supporter of the United Kingdom, I am now for the first time in my life considering voting for independence if a second referendum is called. I would not have believed that this was a remote possibility until now. I guess if I feel this way, a very significant number of people in Scotland who voted against independence last time round will feel the same. I will certainly have nothing in common with a country that is governed by the likes of Johnson, Gove and Farage.

A sad, sad day for the country in so many ways.    

 

 

Agreed.

As I indicated to winky, I am unclear as to how we can elect a Government that would be willing to implement this disasterous decision.

Bananahead posted:

Never have I been more ashamed to have been born British

No reason to be ashamed - populism is making headway everywhere in the world. There's little we can do against it: Trump, Brexit, and probably Marine Le Pen at the head of France next year.

Why would we elect a new government? I'm no tory, so I'm not saying I want them to carry on, but surely since we don't have a presidential system, Cameron probably resigns in the short-medium term (and Gideon goes too), and a new tory leader is elected instead, by whatever internal mechanism the party uses?

DrMark posted:

So if voters choose to leave the EU, then the UK, which traces its sovereignty back more than 1,000 years and once had an empire so vast they ruled the entire world, will never be able to recover forever and ever until the end of time…?

'I met a traveller from an antique land
Who said—‘Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
Stand in the desert. Near them, on the sand,
Half sunk, a shattered visage lies, whose frown
And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command,
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
The hand that mocked them and the heart that fed;
And on the pedestal these words appear:
“My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!”
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal Wreck, boundless and bare,
The lone and level sands stretch far away.’

I suppose one may take solace from the examples of Greece, Italy and Spain - Great Empires that continue to prosper.

Agreed.

As I indicated to winky, I am unclear as to how we can elect a Government that would be willing to implement this disasterous decision.

Don

Very good point. We have an elected ruling party leadership that does not agree with this decision. We have an elected opposition leader that does not either (well, at least I think so). We have approx. 2/3rds of MPs who campaigned against it.

Cameron will defer his resignation a few months if only to avert further stock market carnage today. Osborne is gone as future leader. Corbyn, who has set such store by being elected and by his 'membership' has clearly failed to represent those same people on this issue. He is surely toast too.

We are looking at an administration of Boris, Gove and Farage. Can they be elected by existing party banners, where UKIP and the Tories compete for seats or will we have a new Tory/UKIP alliance?

Everything looks a mess this morning. Maybe I should be positive and embrace the power of democracy in action but I'm struggling. My-rose tinted view of democracy did not involve sides shouting blatant lies at each other.

Anyway I have maintained my lifetime 100% record of never voting for a winning candidate or side of the argument in any national elections.

Bruce

I'm not sure what the next steps are.

For the Tories to simply elect a new leader, as was suggested above, seems possible, but then what. He would have no support within parliament to implement this decision.

I anticipate it will require mass resignations and re-elections. And I cannot see enough acceptable candidates being re-elected on the basis of implementing this decision

OMG

Bruce Woodhouse posted:

Agreed.

As I indicated to winky, I am unclear as to how we can elect a Government that would be willing to implement this disasterous decision.

Don

Very good point. We have an elected ruling party leadership that does not agree with this decision. We have an elected opposition leader that does not either (well, at least I think so). We have approx. 2/3rds of MPs who campaigned against it.

Cameron will defer his resignation a few months if only to avert further stock market carnage today. Osborne is gone as future leader. Corbyn, who has set such store by being elected and by his 'membership' has clearly failed to represent those same people on this issue. He is surely toast too.

We are looking at an administration of Boris, Gove and Farage. Can they be elected by existing party banners, where UKIP and the Tories compete for seats or will we have a new Tory/UKIP alliance?

Everything looks a mess this morning. Maybe I should be positive and embrace the power of democracy in action but I'm struggling. My-rose tinted view of democracy did not involve sides shouting blatant lies at each other.

Anyway I have maintained my lifetime 100% record of never voting for a winning candidate or side of the argument in any national elections.

Bruce

Yes, a bit of a mess really.

A sad, sad day. I'm desperately trying to see something positive here, but for the moment I really can't.

Good quote Adam.

I have found a way to feel better...blame Blair!

His administration failed to check the first wave of immigration that has caused so much ill feeling in the UK. So it his fault. Next week he might also get a kicking from Chilcott (though I'm not confident).  I'd argue he was also responsible for the triumph of spin over ideals and kickstarted the drastic loss of faith in our politicians.

See, there is always a bright side!

Bruce

There are two potential positives here I guess. But it's still a really bad idea IMO

1. This could spark votes across the EU and other nations could leave, that may, only may, leave UK in a relatively stronger position to other leavers and perhaps even a smaller EU. However without a strong EU then others may benefit e.g. Russia. It may though help us set up a new economic trading block with other non EU, European nations, Commonwealth etc.

2. I switched a lot of my pensions into US Dollars, just in case.

For the Brexit voters; an own goal or what?

No idea what to think.

I still believe most people's decision was biased not by the EU but UK policies over successive governments but especially the past 6 years.

A lack of investment in industry.  Lack of support for communities outside London. Insufficient investment in the NHS and other public services. Squeezing the welfare state dry.

These have all lead to people looking inwards and voting to Leave.

New PM as well then

Would you buy a second hand idea from this man?

I'm a Canadian ex-pat living happily with my family in Italy at the moment; in the past, we've been resident in Malta and Monaco, and we're seriously thinking about a move to Croatia's beautiful Dalmatian coast. We're quite happy as EU residents.

I like the EU, despite the fact that I don't think much of some of the paternalistic and meddlesome rubbish that occasionally comes out of Brussels. I also like the UK, and the limit of my public criticism is this: I think UK voters have made the wrong choice, based on spurious reasons and "evidence" from often-questionable political and "social justice" sources. They've done so on a voter turn out that was reported earlier today to have been an appalling 22%. Hmmph.

And as Forrest would have said, "That's all I have to say about that."

I learned a long time ago that you can never really tell others what to do; you can only tell them what you will do in response to their actions. Accordingly, as a private individual, I'm going to wait and watch to see how things play out in the coming months. If things goes as I suspect they will, I will be shutting down my many accounts with online UK vendors; in all probability, I'll no longer be purchasing British goods, either online or locally in at import places here in Italy (and yes, that includes audio gear).

I'm content to live with my own choices and their consequences. I hope those UK voters who supported Brexit will find themselves equally content as Britain's new future begins to unfold -- but I'm doubtful.

As always, and with great respect, YMMV.

       Steve

jfritzen posted:

Stupidity and nationalism have won. But at least it's over now. A narrow win for the Remain campaign would have led to never ending discussions and haggle with the EU.

It's only just begun...... (to quote Karen Carpenter).

Sterling crashes; Prime Minister resigns; Tory leadership election; possible General Election; 2 years of renegotiations...