Are we sleep-walking out of Europe ?

Turnout wasn't 22%, it was 72.2%. 

Thanks, HH -- relying on a few news feeds here that are clearly not on the ball. Given the higher turn-out figure, I'm not sure whether I should be more appalled, or less. In any case, the people have spoken.

     Steve

Can we argue that less than 50% of the population voted  to leave and so there is not a clear majority? 28% did not vote.

jfritzen posted:

On a practical side: what's going to change for Naim customers from the EU? Will there be a statement from Naim?

There already has been  ;-))

C.

I was once forced to right an essay on Democracy and one of the things that really angered me at the time was that probably the main argument against 'Referendum initiative' in Switzerland was that Joe Bloggs wasn't Informed, equipped or intelligent enough to make the really important political decisions and that was what politicians were for,  well I have to say this morning through gritted teeth  I agree with that point of view. 

Well, UK did it - despite my prediction (and with no idea if what I suggested actually happened), I feel a sense of shock. However, despite some of the rhetoric in the campaigns, and, it has to be said, on this forum, I don't believe racism is in any a significant factor, though wanting better control of access to the UK's generous social support is probably relatively high for quite a proportion of voters. I just feel that on the whole people are fed up with the inexorable centralisation of decisions to Brussels, with precious little power of local sovereignty to decide anything for itself, fueled of course by what many see as stupidity of some Brussels decisions, or at least proposals even if they fail to go through (straight bananas anyone?).

Of course, if I understand correctly, UK Gov is not legally obliged now to leave, it just knows the will of the people. So maybe now they can go to Brussels a have a real re-negotiation of membership, bringing greater strength and stability to both Britain and the rest of EU.

Meanwhile to our friends in both EU and US: now may be a good time to buy Brit gear, before the pound recovers (and recover it will, whether hours, days or months.

dayjay posted:

winkyincanada posted:

Clay Bingham posted:

Gentlemen

How about some respect for our friends. It's not your country and the outcome whatever it turns out to be will have resulted from a democratic process. We've all had our say over the past couple of months, now its time to wish them the best and trust that life will go on for all of us.

 

Respect for those that didn't vote for racism, intolerance and exclusion. Contempt for those that did.

What an arrogant and judgemental view that is, and rather insulting to just over 50% of the U.K. Population who's votes have so far been counted.  There were far more factors at play than that very narrow list, and attitudes like yours, and others who refuse to listen to those who don't want to be ruled via Brussels, and who continue to play the race card, has only helped to push people into hardening their support for brexit.  There are many people who believe in democracy and tonight is democracy in action regardless of the end result

Everyone without a single exception I have spoken who has said they will vote to leave has said it is because of immigration and two of the most vocal I spoke to where infact immigrants themselves an African and a Brazilian!

They still don't get it.. Listening to Lucas and Mandelson.. The real socialist views of Britain have been heard.. Not some idealistic text book view of socialism... Many people rejected, showed their mis trust or weren't prepared to continue paying for the consequences of big business culture.. which has been  predominately pro EU.

The country has moved more to take a British socialist direction... be interesting how the tories regroup post Cameron.. I suspect who ever leads will have a more common appeal rather than the right wing elitistism we have had to some extent to date. I have heard nothing yet from Corbyn ... will his position be challenged now..

We need politicians now to more listen and lead..and perhaps this has been a big wake up call before it's too late..(and to my mind what the EU is poorest at). Certainly showing the UK as divided. Looking like London, Scotland and NI against (the rest of) England and Wales. 

It was a huge turnout and the people have spoken. Hopefully our politicians will now realise that they have to listen to the people that they represent, and that they cannot keep telling us what we should think and give away our democratic rights.  My hope is that this will be a wake up call to the ruling elites and that we will see a different kind of politics in this country. My fear is that we won't and that UKIP and the like will benefit for that.  We can't continue with a political system that has the main parties, who should represent those who vote for them, ignoring the views of the majority of the electorate. They will learn now, I hope, that if they continue to do so democracy will catch up with them. Better this way than people realising the only party that can change the status quo is ukip because that would truly be a disaster

Everyone without a single exception I have spoken who has said they will vote to leave has said it is because of immigration and two of the most vocal I spoke to where infact immigrants themselves an African and a Brazilian!

 

Bit hypocritical of them, isn't it?

We in New Zealand were horrified when the UK joined the Common Market in 1973, as it was much harder for us to sell our butter and wool, when you used to take all we could produce. Now that in your wisdom you have left the dreaded EU I suggest you can form a good old UK- Australasian trading bloc. This will help prevent a UK recession.We will send you Sauvignon Blanc , wool and butter and you can send us Hillman Minxes and Jaguar XJ6s like in the "good old days". ��

Well now here's a thing...FTSE 100 dropped nearly 10% now recovered to about -4%....German and French exchanges still way lower at -6 and -8%. Seems like there's greater fears about impact on Europe than UK, for the moment at least

Having gone to bed at 4am in the forlorn hope that what I was witnessing was just a nightmare, I see that it is a reality.

So, David Cameron has not delayed his resignation. I would say good riddance, were it not for the fact that this will exacerbate the economic and social turmoil.  Also, as a supporter of the labour party with a great deal of admiration for Corbyn and his approach to politics up to now, I have to register my opinion in respect of his performance in the debate leading up to the election. I am afraid I have to say that he must go as well. His presence in the campaign, his apparent lack of conviction, and the lacklustre efforts of the labour leadership to participate effectively in the campaign are just too damning. 

And the icing on the cake - Donald Trump has just congratulated UK voters  - apparently, "BREXIT is a great thing". Donald Trump and Nigel Farage! Now they are fine bedfellows, aren't they.

I have been appalled by the result of general elections in the past, but I have never been so completely dismayed and disheartened by a national vote of any sort. I also have to admit that I did not see this coming. I was completely convinced that the British public could not possibly be so utterly naïve. (I can't even bring myself to prefix Britain by the word "Great", even as a joke. This is past joking about.

We have just done irreparable damage to the UK, and we have just helped create economic and social chaos in Europe and beyond.

Seems that the Brexiters were supported heavily by retired and 'less well educated' voters. Super.

Back to '73. Which century is debatable.

JamieWednesday posted:

Seems that the Brexiters were supported heavily by retired and 'less well educated' voters. Super.

Those who have lost the ability to think and reason and those who wouldn't understand reason if it stared them in the face!

And now, Nigel Farage has begun to campaign for a change of make-up in the Conservative party and its leadership as a whole, to more clearly represent the views of the BREXIT position in future negotiations with Europe.

What chance Farage dismantling the UKIP party and vying with Boris Johnson for leadership of the new 'Real' Tory party?

I do genuinely hope that this time I am being overly pessimistic.  

Ignorance and stupidity won over wisdom.  David Cameron may not be naturally likable but for me he did a good job to date in regard to economics but a made a grievous mistake by offering the vote to the nation as to whether to stay or not in Europe. 

What was Cameron thinking by offering this referendum in the first place? 

'I'm scared of my backbenchers.'

Well he should have been tough and given them a metaphorical  "bunch of fives".

Bob the Builder posted:

I was once forced to right an essay on Democracy and one of the things that really angered me at the time was that probably the main argument against 'Referendum initiative' in Switzerland was that Joe Bloggs wasn't Informed, equipped or intelligent enough to make the really important political decisions and that was what politicians were for,  well I have to say this morning through gritted teeth  I agree with that point of view. 

The problem with referendums is that people will vote with what is (they think) good for them.  Politicians (on the whole) vote for what is good for the country based on balancing views from "the experts".

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

They still don't get it.. Listening to Lucas and Mandelson.. The real socialist views of Britain have been heard.. Not some idealistic text book view of socialism... Many people rejected, showed their mis trust or weren't prepared to continue paying for the consequences of big business culture.. which has been  predominately pro EU.

The country has moved more to take a British socialist direction... be interesting how the tories regroup post Cameron.. I suspect who ever leads will have a more common appeal rather than the right wing elitistism we have had to some extent to date. I have heard nothing yet from Corbyn ... will his position be challenged now.. 

The problem is (as I see it) that the "socialist" vote has voted us to leave Europe (the EU yes, but writing 'Europe' sounds better) which will in turn lead the country further right wing and anti-socialist.  Farage, Gove, BoJo and their cronies don't want out of Europe to improve the lives of the people in former industrialised areas; they want out to get out of the controls Europe place on them and their cronies.  Inconveniences like the working time directive.  Restrictions on anti-competitive mergers like 3G and O2.  Restrictions on Sky owning all media.  Regulation like this will go in the post-EU utopia of the (Dis)United Kingdom.

And at the same time, there will still be 10's if not 100's thousand migrants coming in.  A squeeze on wages and the welfare bill.  A shortage of affordable housing.  Masses of empty housing stock.  And no investment in the North.

You're right we need a real socialist alternative.  But the only one close to offering that is Corbyn and he is too concerned with the back stabbing from his own party.

Kiwi cat posted:

What was Cameron thinking by offering this referendum in the first place? 

He was thinking that it would stop the defections to UKIP (in a FPTP electoral system it worked); would quieten his back benches (it did for a time) and that his coalition with the LibDems would ultimately prevent it.

He was a fool and his resignation is in a way recognition he has failed the United Kingdom and that will be his legacy.

Oh dear, we all like democracy until we don't get our own way and then it's the fault of the racists, or the stupid, or the old and we can make assumptions that suit our own views on why the majority have voted the way they did.  The people of this country were asked a question and they have answered it - undermining that response undermines democracy.  The decision has been taken, in my view, it is time now to look forward and try to wrestle a future out of the mess we find ourselves in and I hope the politicians respond in kind.  Assuming everyone who doesn't agree with you is stupid or racist is beyond arrogant, and the last time I checked the elderly live here too and have a right to vote.

Eloise posted:

You're right we need a real socialist alternative.  But the only one close to offering that is Corbyn and he is too concerned with the back stabbing from his own party.

I would once have agreed with you.

However, Corbyn has been so anonymous  and ineffective in the referendum campaign, that I think he is irreparably damaged. Indeed, it appears to me that the British (well at least the English and Welsh) public has lurched dramatically to the right, and that there is little chance of Corbyn in particular(or for that matter, any Labour leader) making significant inroads in the next inevitable general election.

This campaign and referendum has been far more vitriolic and divisive than the quite reasonable Scottish Independence referendum that preceded it. I fear that very serious (if not irreparable damage) has been done to the social fabric of the UK  as a whole.

Several other things strike me:

I believe that a significant number people voted 'Leave' as a protest vote for change of some sort, and that more than a few of those people will now be quite concerned about the consequences of the result. Well, unfortunately the damage has been done. One thing is certain. We are about to leave the EU, and there will be no prospect ever again of re-joining. The whole of Europe and the UK alike will be immensely worse off as a result of the vote.

I believe that Boris Johnson has been thrown by the rapid abdication of David Cameron. I don't believe he was quite prepared to begin his leadership campaign quite so quickly.

I have just witnessed the posturing and triumphalism displayed by Nigel Farage this morning, and I am completely nauseated by it. I sincerely hope that some of the BREXIT voters feel this way as well.