Are we sleep-walking out of Europe ?

JamieWednesday posted:

Well now here's a thing...FTSE 100 dropped nearly 10% now recovered to about -4%....German and French exchanges still way lower at -6 and -8%. Seems like there's greater fears about impact on Europe than UK, for the moment at least

Oh there's going to be lots of bargains available in the next few days - time to go shopping. Typical market overreaction. Happens all the time.

Hmack posted:

Eloise posted:

The whole of Europe and the UK alike will be immensely worse off as a result of the vote.

 

 

I'm proud of the UK, that showed courage.  Of course there will be some issues at first, but I was totally for leaving the unholy union, the likes of which will only continue to cause bureaucratic bloat, shared mediocrity and loss of sovereignty as they tend to do...especially with the likes of Europe who relish and wallow in their NWO schemes.   After a few years you'll see it was the right move, and stuff like this has to be broken up ever so often. 

Now just watch as other productive countries are required to take on more of the burden and the non-productive countries get scared more of the producers will leave.

My guess is Germany now will question how much more they'll have to take it in the rump for the likes of Greece, etc...

When people are in large clusters, dumb shit happens...in large clusters of clusters even more dumb shit happens and the ship sinks IMO.  Never give up liberty for comfort.

DrMark posted:

JamieWednesday posted:

Well now here's a thing...FTSE 100 dropped nearly 10% now recovered to about -4%....German and French exchanges still way lower at -6 and -8%. Seems like there's greater fears about impact on Europe than UK, for the moment at least

Oh there's going to be lots of bargains available in the next few days - time to go shopping. Typical market overreaction. Happens all the time.

And the rich will get richer!

count.d posted:

Back to '73. Which century is debatable.

473, after the Romans left and we entered the dark ages!

(OK I do in fact know why they're actually called the the dark ages.)

SNAIC in the grass posted:

I'm proud of the UK, that showed courage.

Absolutely nothing to do with courage!

More than a little to do with 'Little Britain' nationalism, petty prejudice, naivety and sheer unwillingness to consider the real social and economic arguments.

dayjay posted:

Oh dear, we all like democracy until we don't get our own way and then it's the fault of the racists, or the stupid, or the old and we can make assumptions that suit our own views on why the majority have voted the way they did.  The people of this country were asked a question and they have answered it - undermining that response undermines democracy.  The decision has been taken, in my view, it is time now to look forward and try to wrestle a future out of the mess we find ourselves in and I hope the politicians respond in kind.  Assuming everyone who doesn't agree with you is stupid or racist is beyond arrogant, and the last time I checked the elderly live here too and have a right to vote.

Well, I believe in "democracy", but "democracy" does not mean that decisions (especially important ones) should be taken by 50.1% or even 52% of the people. Government by referendum is not a very good idea.

Remember what Churchill and E.M. Forster said about democracy.

and as Eloise has posted :

The rich will get richer and the poor will be even less well protected than before.

Hmack posted:

SNAIC in the grass posted:

I'm proud of the UK, that showed courage.

Absolutely nothing to do with courage!

More than a little to do with 'Little Britain' nationalism, petty prejudice, naivety and sheer unwillingness to consider the real social and economic arguments.

Nope, courage to overcome this type of rhetoric.

FRENCHNAIM posted:

Well, I believe in "democracy", but "democracy" does not mean that decisions (especially important ones) should be taken by 50.1% or even 52% of the people.

Indeed! I completely agree with you. And, before anyone considers my agreement to be hypocritical, I believe that the ground-lines for a Scottish Independence referendum should be clearly laid out in advance. A vote of 52% in favour of leaving the UK should not be seen as a mandate for independence. Despite the fact that in this case a 'Leave' campaign just might have my vote, I believe that a very substantial majority of the people (and not just of the people who vote) should be required to trigger Scottish independence.

A similar set of ground-rules should have been set out for the EU referendum when the referendum was announced. 

Requiring a majority just means nothing ever changes...*yawn*

Frenchnaim posted:

dayjay posted:

Oh dear, we all like democracy until we don't get our own way and then it's the fault of the racists, or the stupid, or the old and we can make assumptions that suit our own views on why the majority have voted the way they did.  The people of this country were asked a question and they have answered it - undermining that response undermines democracy.  The decision has been taken, in my view, it is time now to look forward and try to wrestle a future out of the mess we find ourselves in and I hope the politicians respond in kind.  Assuming everyone who doesn't agree with you is stupid or racist is beyond arrogant, and the last time I checked the elderly live here too and have a right to vote.

Well, I believe in "democracy", but "democracy" does not mean that decisions (especially important ones) should be taken by 50.1% or even 52% of the people. Government by referendum is not a very good idea.

Remember what Churchill and E.M. Forster said about democracy.

But this referendum was part of a party political manifesto at a general election for the party that was voted into power.  Both the holding of the referendum and result are the will of the people.  

SNAIC IN THE GRASS posted:

Nope, courage to overcome this type of rhetoric.

OK. Do you really believe that I have a monopoly in respect of rhetoric? 

dayjay posted:

Frenchnaim posted:

dayjay posted:

Oh dear, we all like democracy until we don't get our own way and then it's the fault of the racists, or the stupid, or the old and we can make assumptions that suit our own views on why the majority have voted the way they did.  The people of this country were asked a question and they have answered it - undermining that response undermines democracy.  The decision has been taken, in my view, it is time now to look forward and try to wrestle a future out of the mess we find ourselves in and I hope the politicians respond in kind.  Assuming everyone who doesn't agree with you is stupid or racist is beyond arrogant, and the last time I checked the elderly live here too and have a right to vote.

Well, I believe in "democracy", but "democracy" does not mean that decisions (especially important ones) should be taken by 50.1% or even 52% of the people. Government by referendum is not a very good idea.

Remember what Churchill and E.M. Forster said about democracy.

But this referendum was part of a party political manifesto at a general election for the party that was voted into power.  Both the holding of the referendum and result are the will of the people.  

Just be glad your vote seems to matter, unlike in the USA where our next president will be elected based on sex parts and not rule of law or will of the people.

Hmack posted:

FRENCHNAIM posted:

Well, I believe in "democracy", but "democracy" does not mean that decisions (especially important ones) should be taken by 50.1% or even 52% of the people.

Indeed! I completely agree with you. And, before anyone considers my agreement to be hypocritical, I believe that the ground-lines for a Scottish Independence referendum should be clearly laid out in advance. A vote of 52% in favour of leaving the UK should not be seen as a mandate for independence. Despite the fact that in this case a 'Leave' campaign just might have my vote, I believe that a very substantial majority of the people (and not just of the people who vote) should be required to trigger Scottish independence.

A similar set of ground-rules should have been set out for the EU referendum when the referendum was announced. 

Oh come on, everyone has the right to vote, if they choose not to vote they have no say and the majority of those who do vote gets carried.  You can't just rig things so that things go your way.  It will be best out of three next, or don't allow the elderly or those without a PhD to vote because that gives us a better chance of the status quo.  If the arguments are positive and strong enough they will be carried, they weren't, and no amount of blame and recrimination will change that

SNAIC in the grass also posted:

Requiring a majority just means nothing ever changes...*yawn*

I really hope that this was a misguided attempt at a joke, but I have my doubts!

I think this never would have come to this had the EU Commission/s (since there are more than one - I can't quite get a handle on which ones do what), which are not elected, incredibly well compensated, and do almost nothing to foster a positive economic environment (other than for themselves) and cow--tow to US interests, had listened or been accountable to the people at some level. The EU Parliament, which is elected, appears to have no power to enact legislation, and EU law seems to emanate from administrative fiat.

I think the basic idea of the EU as an economic was a good one, and the concept of making it as one to prevent war is a great one; but there has been a lot of mission creep, and these elitists in Brussels have been acting like they can do whatever they want and the citizenry be damned. And why not? They don't answer to the citizenry. THAT is where I think they have really made a big mistake in administrating all this. The entire "f*** you we can do what we want and you just shut up and take your medicine ('oh, more caviar and Dom please') because I know what is best for you" attitude has a lot more to do with the desire to leave than oversimplified charges of racism...although this gave that contingent a foothold to operate.

It's the same phenomenon that has fed into the rise of a numbskull like Trump. People are so exasperated that they just want "not the same old s**t" And the "same old s**t" refuses to listen, keeps taking care of their rich friends, and helping themselves to a very lucrative life at the taxpayers expense. Oh and in this country, waging war; which we try to drag Europe into, and in fact use your money to play our high-stakes international game of poker

And it is very obvious that being a small member of the EU means you don't get to say much about anything. I previously used the fishing industry in Portugal as an example - it has been completely trashed and destroyed by EU regulation in the interest of keeping "everything fair."

I am very surprised that this was the outcome. The question is will it start a contagion?

Of course democracy won out, but then it has also been said that democracy is 2 wolves and a sheep at a table deciding what's for dinner.

Democracy means accepting that the majority win. It is not proportionate. I have no problem with that. I am just saddened by the quality of debate and the lies and obfuscations that led up to this vote-and I make both sides culpable.

A decision of such importance, so long lasting and wide in its reach. How was the process compared say to the Scottish Independence vote? As an outsider that looked to be a better example of democracy in action.

2% might have been the margin but the turnout was pretty impressive. It is a lot of people.

dayjay posted:

Hmack posted:

FRENCHNAIM posted:

Well, I believe in "democracy", but "democracy" does not mean that decisions (especially important ones) should be taken by 50.1% or even 52% of the people.

Indeed! I completely agree with you. And, before anyone considers my agreement to be hypocritical, I believe that the ground-lines for a Scottish Independence referendum should be clearly laid out in advance. A vote of 52% in favour of leaving the UK should not be seen as a mandate for independence. Despite the fact that in this case a 'Leave' campaign just might have my vote, I believe that a very substantial majority of the people (and not just of the people who vote) should be required to trigger Scottish independence.

A similar set of ground-rules should have been set out for the EU referendum when the referendum was announced. 

Oh come on, everyone has the right to vote, if they choose not to vote they have no say and the majority of those who do vote gets carried.  You can't just rig things so that things go your way.  It will be best out of three next, or don't allow the elderly or those without a PhD to vote because that gives us a better chance of the status quo.  If the arguments are positive and strong enough they will be carried, they weren't, and no amount of blame and recrimination will change that

I like the sound of that!! Then my vote might finally count. (That's not serious by the way).

Anyway, I voted to remain and am immensely disappointed. But there is no point in wringing one's hands, we need to go forward and hope that whoever leads the negotiations does the best for the UK and our friends in Europe. Chin up!

The Blairites are circling and have called for a vote of no confidence in Labour.  But unless Labour listen and work out why people in their "heartland" have voted against what they promoted as the best option ... then they will become more and more irrelevant.

Labour voters (it appears) voted overwhelmingly to leave the EU. You (meaning the Labour Party) have to listen and understand why? Why do they not feel that the prosperity the EU had brought to the UK (within the EU we have risen to the 5th biggest economy) has benefited them? Why are their no opportunities for them? Why do they feel out of control?

People (in my opinion) have not rejected the EU. They have rejected the status quo and this was the only alternative option.

So Labour ... offer a better option ... and then deliver it ...

DrMark posted:

I think the basic idea...was a good one...but there has been a lot of mission creep...

History repeats itself yet again!

A lot of great ideas just don't work in practice, especially where humans are involved.

Go back to Roman politics and have a plebiscite in the true meaning of the word: the Patricii can't vote in it, neither can the Proletarii.  It's only the Plebs that takes part, it's the only one that gets a say: the middle class!

Eligible voters who voted to leave the EU = 17.4m

Eligible voters who did not vote to leave the EU = 29.2m

Therefore Brexit have not succeeded in gaining a majority vote so we should stay in the European Union.

This vote is not a General Election with party manifestos to vote for, it's only here to suit a minority of people who want to leave the EU so the onus should be on them to prove a majority of the 46.6 eligible voters do indeed want to leave the EU. But this criteria has not been met, instead we have a flawed electoral procedure that allows a minority group to undemocratically control the destiny of the majority.

Debs

naim_nymph posted:

instead we have a flawed electoral procedure that allows a minority group to undemocratically control the destiny of the majority.

Welcome to the UK democratic system ... designed to protect the few at the expense of the many.

DrMark posted:

People are so exasperated that they just want "not the same old s**t" And the "same old s**t" refuses to listen, keeps taking care of their rich friends, and helping themselves to a very lucrative life at the taxpayers expense.

And so the *only* course of action is to keep throwing out the same old shit until you have the right shit.  You know what they say about diapers and politicians.

DAYJAY,

Whilst I do not agree with your views, I do agree that having conducted a referendum without having discussed ground-rules for triggering a 'Leave' vote, there is no going back. The votes have been cast and we are where we are.

However, I do believe that a referendum of this sort, and indeed of the sort that will probably trigger a vote for Scottish (and possibly Northern Ireland) independence from the UK should not be conducted on the basis that a 2% majority of those who vote (let alone, heaven forbid, a 0.1 majority) should be allowed to trigger such a momentous event.