Are we sleep-walking out of Europe ?

I'm sad

Dozey posted:

Can we argue that less than 50% of the population voted  to leave and so there is not a clear majority? 28% did not vote.

Dozey,there is a clear majority and It voted for "leave".28 % did not vote?It was their right,and so what?They choosed not to vote,other did and their vote is valid.Personally I was hoping there was not a Brexit,but that's just me.

Hmack posted:

 

Several other things strike me:

I believe that a significant number people voted 'Leave' as a protest vote for change of some sort, and that more than a few of those people will now be quite concerned about the consequences of the result. Well, unfortunately the damage has been done. One thing is certain. We are about to leave the EU, and there will be no prospect ever again of re-joining. The whole of Europe and the UK alike will be immensely worse off as a result of the vote.

I know the way that only 2 people voted (I never discuss voting intentions with friends, and nevver want to know their decision after conversations):

Of those two, they voted opposite ways. This morning the one who voted to leave looked visibly shaken, and said she'd only done it as a protest to make a point, fully believing there'd be a strong majority in favour of remaining, just hoping there'd be enough leave votes to support Gov't in further talks with Brussels.

I'd like to pose a question that is really irrelevant in some ways in respect of what has just happened, but might be illuminating none-the-less.

Were we to hold another referendum next week or next month (and of course this cannot happen), do you think the result would be the same?

We will never know, but I do have my doubts.

The soothsayer says: I foresee more memberships to tumble. With or without Scotland, the UK will go on to forge new partnerships with other disenfranchised European nations, primarily those around the North Sea. We will be viewed by them as a gateway to trade in The Commonwealth and the rest of the world, we will see them as a route to the Continent. France will eventually split into a North/South divide, with Paris deciding to join our new Norsk alliance while Vichy decide to remain with the other crumbling Latin States. Germany will be torn apart by their own historic East/West and North/South divides. Eastern European nations will lean back towards their old Russian Bear, Uncle Vlad. Expect the Baltic states to be annexed much in the way Crimea was. It all ends horribly.

Nice Carravagio Fabio 1.

Naim Nymphs stats can be turned round of course to say that only 16.1 million out of the U.K. population voted to stay in the EU.

Ray

FTSE 100 strengthening. A bit. CAC and DAX getting worse. There must be the feeling that other nations will hold their own votes yet...

naim_nymph posted:

Eligible voters who voted to leave the EU = 17.4m

Eligible voters who did not vote to leave the EU = 29.2m

Therefore Brexit have not succeeded in gaining a majority vote so we should stay in the European Union.

This vote is not a General Election with party manifestos to vote for, it's only here to suit a minority of people who want to leave the EU so the onus should be on them to prove a majority of the 46.6 eligible voters do indeed want to leave the EU. But this criteria has not been met, instead we have a flawed electoral procedure that allows a minority group to undemocratically control the destiny of the majority.

Debs

That argument is perhaps a case for compulsory voting (like Australia) not for the current decision to be undemocratic. Assuming those who did not vote are all supporters of Remain is unreasonable.

We cannot re-write rules because we don't like the result. After all, we had a referendum on Proportional Representation and that failed too.

Bruce

Hmack posted:

I'd like to pose a question that is really irrelevant in some ways in respect of what has just happened, but might be illuminating none-the-less.

Were we to hold another referendum next week or next month (and of course this cannot happen), do you think the result would be the same?

We will never know, but I do have my doubts.

I like that suggestion. Sort of a 14 day trial period!

Actually I think the result would harden, but there you go.

Bruce

Can I safely assume that, as a result of brexit, we in the UK will at least, in future, be spared the inanity of the Eurovision Song Contest ? 

Oh, and will we still be able to buy a Euromillions lucky dip? 

DAVE MARSHALL posted:

Can I safely assume that, as a result of brexit, we in the UK will at least, in future, be spared the inanity of the Eurovision Song Contest ? 

Unfortunately not! the prime movers in the Eurovision Song Contest are not themselves members of the EU. 

Still no silver linings.

dave marshall posted:

Can I safely assume that, as a result of brexit, we in the UK will at least, in future, be spared the inanity of the Eurovision Song Contest ? 

No, no you may not assume that. They go nuts for Eurovision in Australia, of all places. Fortunately, here in Canada we largely ignore it.

Can we bring our footie team home though?

Actually that will probably happen soon enough.

The intolerance, bigotry of those who voted to remain; anyone who voted to leave is thick and racist.

Oh bugger! I’ll have to change my number plates. Still, the profit on currency I’ve stockpiled will take care of that.

We’ve never been good Europeans. Even since we joined all we’ve done is piss and moan and put stink on it. Now we’re thrown it back. We don’t deserve the EU and the EU sure doesn’t deserve us.

My Career cycle and accrued estate has been critically dependent on my being able, on occasion, to move around freely and work in the EU. Serious corporates tend to put the right people in the right post, not the bloke who lives nearest. This approach tends to generate more money. As I glide towards retirement I don’t need this anymore. Why should I care about my successors?  I’m all right and it appears that’s still what being English is all about when you get right down to it.

I’m not, for the record, one of the majority who just voted to throw my children’s future away.  But they’ll still blame me – and maybe they should. Maybe my generation should have tried harder? Too late now and I’m pretty much past caring. Besides which, the bell curve predicts that if I live long enough into retirement I may become a curtain twitcher who feels entitled to dictate who lives next door to me. So who knows? Maybe I’ve scored again?

Senior Tories who were in favour of Brexit are now saying that if they don't have to they may never invoke Article 50 and if they do it probably will be some time next year after which there will be two years or more of political wrangling wrangling that if they choose the other member states of the EU could drag on and on and on. David Cameron has resigned leaving the door wide open for Boris Johnson and now Nicola Sturgeon IS DEMANDING ANOTHER REFERENDUM yes another referendum on wether or not they want to split from Great Britain and if all that wasn't enough Nigel Farage is jockeying for position in post David Cameron 'Brexit' Government.  Well done Britain!

If Scotland wants  to stay in the EU then they need to disentangle from us. I hope they do. Shame about Ireland - that's not going to go well.

And Gilbtrater wants to stay in the EU. We don't. Spain is. Hummmm. That's a good one.

Harry - it's a right dogs dinner.

Harry posted:

Oh bugger! I’ll have to change my number plates.

I too also recently replaced my motorbike plates to an EU type in anticipation of a bike trip to the continent. I guess I'm going to have to change them back or purchase a new 'Scotland EU' set of plates for when the inevitable happens.

At least with the currency falling I'm not going to be able to fund any holidays abroad in the near future anyway.

Not funny!

Well, the milk is spilt, and there's precious little any of us (unless there are politicians on here?) can do to have much influence, and what will happen is still mostly only so much conjecture....

Time to put some music on and revel in the delights that can bring, and get on with normal life while waiting for the mess to start to unravel.

(As an aside - although mine is  a British passport, it doesn't say European Union, so at least I won't be travelling under false pretences if Britain does formally exit!)

Hmack posted:

 

 Also, as a supporter of the labour party with a great deal of admiration for Corbyn and his approach to politics up to now, I have to register my opinion in respect of his performance in the debate leading up to the election. I am afraid I have to say that he must go as well. His presence in the campaign, his apparent lack of conviction, and the lacklustre efforts of the labour leadership to participate effectively in the campaign are just too damning. 

 

We have just done irreparable damage to the UK, and we have just helped create economic and social chaos in Europe and beyond.

I am a member of the Labour Party.  I think it has abandoned working class people and now we are all paying the price.

Look, at the root of all of this is one simple truth: some people are creaming it off, so to speak, in the City and elsewhere, whilst others, on the other hand, are having to decide between putting food on the table or heating the house.  The result?  Anger, resentment leading to unpredictable consequences.  It led to war in Europe on two occasions, and now it's leading to us leading to the Exit Door of the EU.

Until we actually start looking after our fellow citizens (as well as refugees), we won't even begin to heal the wounds that have now opened up.

It's not complicated really.

Dave

PS.  I voted for Corbyn, but he must now go.  We need someone who actually acknowledges what has happened to our society and to actually propose solutions.  I'm sure a general election is coming at some point in the near to medium term, and I just don't think he can represent people's concerns effectively enough.

Hmack posted:

 

Not funny!

No. It's not. I have my tongue pressed in an overly sarcastic cheek (if you can tell the difference!) today because I'm a bit pissed off. Can't think why.

JamieWednesday posted:

The soothsayer says: I foresee more memberships to tumble. With or without Scotland, the UK will go on to forge new partnerships with other disenfranchised European nations, primarily those around the North Sea. We will be viewed by them as a gateway to trade in The Commonwealth and the rest of the world, we will see them as a route to the Continent. France will eventually split into a North/South divide, with Paris deciding to join our new Norsk alliance while Vichy decide to remain with the other crumbling Latin States. Germany will be torn apart by their own historic East/West and North/South divides. Eastern European nations will lean back towards their old Russian Bear, Uncle Vlad. Expect the Baltic states to be annexed much in the way Crimea was. It all ends horribly.

Russia is NOT going to annex the Baltic states. That is NATO propaganda to justify their expense, actions, and existence.

Crimea would still be a semi-autonomous part of Ukraine had not the US State Dept. gotten involved in the protests and poured gas on the fire, and Ukraine would have had a full country election already to see which crook they wanted in power; the pro-Russian one or the pro-US one. Chalk it up to another rousing success story for US foreign policy and interventionism. The "Exceptional and Indispensable" people at work. The only certainty is the Ukrainian peoples' well being was not in view, but you can bet the drive to Monsantoize the grain fields and control gas pipelines was a major factor. (But "human rights" is such a convenient shield...always plays well and sounds SO altruistic.)

Putin is not trying to recreate the Soviet Union. In fact, within Russian politics, his biggest detractors are not "liberal pro-West" supporters, but the contingent that DOES want to re-create the Soviet Union. It's an inconvenient fact, I know.

Labour should give it a year to sink in and for the panic and revulsion to start rising, then start campaigning as the party to U turn the EU exit. "Vote for us and we'll fix the mistake". It can't decrease their chances but what do I know? I don't think they'd have the balls (no pun intended) in any case.

DrMark posted

Russia is NOT going to annex the Baltic states. That is NATO propaganda to justify their expense, actions, and existence.

And that's the bit you take issue with..?