Are we sleep-walking out of Europe ?

Eloise posted:

The conservatives can only call an early election with the cooperation of Labour (2/3 majority needed to call election ahead of the schedule in the Fixed Term Parliament act) and/or Liberal Lords (to repeal said act).   Alternatively there can be a simple majority in a vote of no confidence in the government... Which would require conservatives to vote against themselves.

I stand corrected. However, might the Government call for a vote of confidence in their new leadership, on the basis that the Labour Party will either have to vote to support them (I can't see that happening) or vote to oppose them and trigger a general election. Given the current political situation throughout England, this would be akin to Turkeys voting for Christmas. 

Hmack posted:

Eloise posted:

The conservatives can only call an early election with the cooperation of Labour (2/3 majority needed to call election ahead of the schedule in the Fixed Term Parliament act) and/or Liberal Lords (to repeal said act).   Alternatively there can be a simple majority in a vote of no confidence in the government... Which would require conservatives to vote against themselves.

I stand corrected. However, might the Government call for a vote of confidence in their new leadership, on the basis that the Labour Party will either have to vote to support them (I can't see that happening) or vote to oppose them and trigger a general election. Given the current political situation throughout England, this would be akin to Turkeys voting for Christmas. 

I think it has to specifically be a vote of no confidence, rather than loosing a vote of confidence.  Clegg was clever at wording that bit!

Hmack posted:

I just wonder how the labour supporters of BREXIT will feel when one of Boris Johnson, Michael Gove or Theresa May wins the Tory leadership and leads the Tory party to an overwhelming victory at the inevitable imminent general election.

Do they really believe that life will get better for them?

 

I really believe that I will have the right to vote them out along with my countrymen and women, and that is a step forward in my view

dayjay posted:

Hmack posted:

I just wonder how the labour supporters of BREXIT will feel when one of Boris Johnson, Michael Gove or Theresa May wins the Tory leadership and leads the Tory party to an overwhelming victory at the inevitable imminent general election.

Do they really believe that life will get better for them?

 

I really believe that I will have the right to vote them out along with my countrymen and women, and that is a step forward in my view

Erm ... You could vote them out before.  Like you could vote for influence in the European Parliament.

But I'm glad you now feel you've "Taken Back Control" of our now insignificant little nation!

Just don't complain when BoJo and friends give away that control for the sake of the bankers!

Kiwi cat posted:

What was Cameron thinking by offering this referendum in the first place? 

It was a sop to the right-wing Euroseceptics in his party, and it seriously backfired on him.

Dozey posted:

Can we argue that less than 50% of the population voted  to leave and so there is not a clear majority? 28% did not vote.

Not really. More than 72% of those eligible to vote, voted. That seems a decent turnout to me. Those who didn't bother only have themselves to blame if they don't like the decision.

Eloise posted:

dayjay posted:

Hmack posted:

I just wonder how the labour supporters of BREXIT will feel when one of Boris Johnson, Michael Gove or Theresa May wins the Tory leadership and leads the Tory party to an overwhelming victory at the inevitable imminent general election.

Do they really believe that life will get better for them?

 

I really believe that I will have the right to vote them out along with my countrymen and women, and that is a step forward in my view

Erm ... You could vote them out before.  Like you could vote for influence in the European Parliament.

But I'm glad you now feel you've "Taken Back Control" of our now insignificant little nation!

Just don't complain when BoJo and friends give away that control for the sake of the bankers!

Thanks, I'm glad your glad. Our insignificant little nation taking back control of its own laws appears to have had rather a large affect on the rest of the world, and I suspect the bankers are almost as glad as you

For the first time ever I might agree with Jeremy Clarkson...

...actually I quite like sandwich spread too.

It's like Britain is shocked to find the world full of foreigners, so has decided to go home, lock the door, pull the curtains and have a nice cup of tea and some Digestives.

dayjay posted:

But this referendum was part of a party political manifesto at a general election for the party that was voted into power.  Both the holding of the referendum and result are the will of the people.  

I wouldn’t say that holding a referendum was the will of the people, the electorate vote based on a couple of issues they regard as very important, usually the ability to manage the economy. The conservatives won the last election because they didn’t trust labour with the economy, Balls doesn’t come across as very smart and Milliband is a schmendrick. Side issues such as an EU referendum and the promise to force housing associations to sell some of their houses are included to pick up a few percentages of votes.

 The above, is why I can’t understand the Brexit mantra, leave the EU, get back democracy

 Can anybody tell me an EU law or regulation that could be the main factor in the way the UK electorate would vote in a general election?

 Presumably the conservatives will now be able to decide that prisoners are not allowed to vote. A voter may not agree with that decision, but if they think the conservatives will make a good job of the economy, they will vote conservative at the nex election.

 What’s the difference between having no influence on the EU ruling on prisoners, to having no influence the UK governments ruling on prisoners.

 Just because we can elect the people who make all the decision, doesn’t mean we can express our like/dislike on all those decisions during a general election.

There is no doubt that the EU could have been a moderating influence on some of the more right wing policies of the future UK Government.

What now? The introduction of yet more and more zero hours contracts and the abolition of the 'Living' and 'minimum' wage safeguards?

But then, that would be the will of the British people, so that's OK then.

fatcat posted:

Presumably the conservatives will now be able to decide that prisoners are not allowed to vote. 

Actually (afaik) the ruling that the blanket ban on prisoners voting came from the European Court of Human Rights who's authority is established by the European Convention of Human Rights of which the UK's membership is separate to being a member of the EU.  Ironically the European Court of Justice (which is part of the EU) agreed recently with France that ban on some prisoners voting is legal.

Oh hell ... I think I've just shown why most people don't actually know what controls the EU have over the UK.

As for EU regulations which someone might see as overbearing ... One would be the application of VAT and the inability of member states to vary VAT levels below 15% and the fact that they cannot remove VAT on items they may wish to (such as Tampons). 

If anyone's interested, here's how I voted.

After several months' vacillation, listening to the disinformation, scare stories and downright lies peddled by both sides, I sat down for a couple of hours yesterday, switched off my phone, radio, computer and telly and sat with a piece of paper and wrote down the arguments for leaving and staying, and then thought long, and very, very carefully.

And I voted leave.

Why? Not because I am a xenophobic Little Englander, a Boris-loving groupie, anti-immigration, a lover of Farage, Gove or IDS, a racist, an idiot, a neo-nazi, but because I believe the EU is a sclerotic, anti-democratic, doomed institution which cannot be reformed (I did not hear any arguments or outlines - not one - from the Remain side about how the EU could be reformed either); it is in hock to big business (see TTIP, ISDS etc), neoliberal orthodoxy, austerity;with a catastrophically unsucessful currency, huge youth unemployment and stagnating economies; and is of a distinctly expansionist (what business has an inherently unstable, Islamist dictatorship like Turkey got being in the EU? The fact that it's even being proposed is insanity - as inappropriate as proposing that Putin's Russia join) centralising bent.

It is run - rather like this country - by an aloof, self-serving elite which treats ordinary people's concerns with contempt (you only have to look at the disgraceful witterings of a self-styled "liberal" Remainer like Polly Toynbee, whose statements have been almost as contemptible as Farage's; or the statements of unelected EU mandarins like Juncker or Laura Nordström, or the sheer arrogance of Wolfgang Schäuble).

I believe the EU is doomed. Perhaps we can expect Dexit, Swexit, Duxit, Fixit, even Frexit next. Who knows? While Brexit will probably not protect us from a disintegrating EU, I believe it is better to be outside.

For the sake of my family, friends, myself, my business and my country, I voted Out. I did this with a heavy heart, and in sorrow. I did not celebrate this morning, and I found Farage's crowing as distasteful as anyone else.

For me, the status quo was untenable. Uncertainty and tough times lie ahead, i don't doubt. But the people have spoken. What we need now is acceptance, unity and a determination to move forward (sadly, given the political "talent" available, on both the Tory and Labour sides, this will be more difficult). Recrimination against either side will only make things worse.

By all means call me a Nazi thicko.

Heinrich Kardashian...

@Kevin

I disagree with many of your reasons ... But I respect you for having reasoned it out.

I do worry that to trade effectively with the remaining members of the EU and with USA things like TTIP and free movement are going to be forced on us regardless, and without being a member of the EU we have abdicated all ability to affect changes which will none the less affect what remains of the United Kingdom.

I whole heartedly agree that having made the decision to Leave, that needs to be done quickly but in a measured way, and from there we need to go forward and try to regain some unity and acceptance.

Hmack posted:

There is no doubt that the EU could have been a moderating influence on some of the more right wing policies of the future UK Government.

What now? The introduction of yet more and more zero hours contracts and the abolition of the 'Living' and 'minimum' wage safeguards?

But then, that would be the will of the British people, so that's OK then.

Well, we've been a member of the EU for 43 years, and it has done nothing to outlaw zero-hours contracts here.

While we must indeed be wary of a right wing government's attempts to turn back the clock on workers' rights, the EU is not that interested in workers' rights either, but it is interested in driving down the cost of labour in order to achieve neoliberal nirvana and further the cause of globalisation.

The Minimum Wage was introduced by New Labour in the 90s and the  Living Wage was introduced - the irony! - by a Tory government. Neither have anything to do with the EU.

In fact, there's an argument for saying that the EU might at some point have tried to meddle with these safeguards, given the bureacracy's mania for standardisation and "anti-competitiveness".

Can you imagine a Labour government ever trying to repeal NLW? Or even a Tory one? Both are here to stay.

JamieWednesday posted:

Heinrich Kardashian...

KIm Himmler, surely?

Eloise posted:

fatcat posted:

Presumably the conservatives will now be able to decide that prisoners are not allowed to vote. 

Actually (afaik) the ruling that the blanket ban on prisoners voting came from the European Court of Human Rights who's authority is established by the European Convention of Human Rights of which the UK's membership is separate to being a member of the EU.  Ironically the European Court of Justice (which is part of the EU) agreed recently with France that ban on some prisoners voting is legal.

Oh hell ... I think I've just shown why most people don't actually know what controls the EU have over the UK.

As for EU regulations which someone might see as overbearing ... One would be the application of VAT and the inability of member states to vary VAT levels below 15% and the fact that they cannot remove VAT on items they may wish to (such as Tampons). 

You're probably, but whether it's the EU courts or EU council, it doesn't matter, people see them both as undemocratic.

But, the point is, the examples you give may be overbearing to some peple, but, they are not issues a UK general election will be fought on or voted on.

Kevin-W posted:

Hmack posted:

There is no doubt that the EU could have been a moderating influence on some of the more right wing policies of the future UK Government.

What now? The introduction of yet more and more zero hours contracts and the abolition of the 'Living' and 'minimum' wage safeguards?

But then, that would be the will of the British people, so that's OK then.

Well, we've been a member of the EU for 43 years, and it has done nothing to outlaw zero-hours contracts here.

While we must indeed be wary of a right wing government's attempts to turn back the clock on workers' rights, the EU is not that interested in workers' rights either, but it is interested in driving down the cost of labour in order to achieve neoliberal nirvana and further the cause of globalisation.

The Minimum Wage was introduced by New Labour in the 90s and the  Living Wage was introduced - the irony! - by a Tory government. Neither have anything to do with the EU.

In fact, there's an argument for saying that the EU might at some point have tried to meddle with these safeguards, given the bureacracy's mania for standardisation and "anti-competitiveness".

Can you imagine a Labour government ever trying to repeal NLW? Or even a Tory one? Both are here to stay.

It's wrong to assume that the EU is not that interested in worker's rights, as the following from the TUC shows:

The Working Time Directive, introduced in 1998, provided for the first time an entitlement to annual paid leave. It’s something that many workers take for granted but for six million workers, many low paid women, this was the first time they had a right to take a paid holiday from work. The Directive also provides protections from excessive working hours; 700,000 fewer workers now endure a working week of over 48 hours. If anyone thinks these regulations are safe they should look at Conservative MEP Angela McIntyre’s views last year, when she called it a “thoroughly meddlesome, socialist-inspired directive” and urged the European Commission to “get rid of it once and for all”.

Employers are increasingly adopting different models of employment as a way of reducing costs and imposing undesirable contracts on workers. In the last ten years we have seen the use of Agency Workers increase. After a long campaign by trade unions in Europe the EU did introduce the Agency Workers Regulations in 2011 which saw significant increases in pay and access to paid leave for thousands of workers. We are now seeing the use of Zero Hours Contracts grow rapidly. Apart from making it really difficult for workers to enjoy a consistent income and plan their lives, ZHCs also mean that many workers lose out on basic employment rights, including even the right to a written contract of employment – again a result of an EU directive.

The EU has decided to review the regulations to ensure that all workers, including those on ZHCs, must have rights to a written contract of employment and their expected hours of work – something that is a real concern for working people in the UK, especially young workers.

Rights for pregnant workers, new mothers and new fathers have all come from the EU. Any new parent knows how important it is to spend valuable time at home without suffering detriment at work. It is the EU that has afforded these protections and also broadened vital anti-discrimination laws to include age, religion or belief and sexual orientation and to shift the burden of proof in discrimination cases from the individual to the employer.

True, to a degree, but it is incorrect to credit these developments entirely to the EU. We have had our own legislation in this field for some time, beginning with the Equal Pay Act 1970 and the Sex Discrimination Act, both of which were developed autonomously from the EU. I don't see why we can't continue to develop workers' rights on our own - especially if unemployment is low (although the future on that one is uncertain, given current circumstances).

Pardon me if I remain cynical (or if I'm correct) - most of the measures you mention were pushed through AFAIK by left-leaning MEPs and the like. I don't believe the EU bureacracy itself has any great love for the working man and is in fact more interested in constructing legislation and trade agreements that favour supra-national corporations.

Sniper posted:

The EU
If you only get back what you put in why bother to join?
If you get back less than you put in why bother to remain?
If you get back more than you put in why expect it to work?

The same questions apply to any kind of community or relationship, even marriage. So why should any of these work? Because of the synergy, you get things done you can't manage alone. Like raising kids (marriage) or building Minis (EU).

UK seems to want the benefits of globalization without the reality of it.

The youth seems to have made the right choices but the aged and the pensioners want to throwback to the "glory days"

In the 1970's - there was no China and no India and not much competition in the manufacturing sector and it will be very interesting to see UK stand on its own feet.

The Russians would be very happy to see a politico - economic disconnect between UK and the rest of the EU.

Political isolation from EU will mean a large degree of economic isolation as well. The Europeans will not allow many Jaguars onto Europe and they wouldnt care much for EU cars sold in UK.

Tata Group with all the steel manufacturing facilities should have pulled the plug while there was a chance to do so 6 months earlier but they will pay the price as well. Cant have jobs and make un-competitive steel with no market access.

Well... the public in UK has made the choice and one must respect that. Its their land and they deserve to take control over the kind of future they want.

One hopes they will also accept and respect the consequences of this choice however economically painful it may be.

The past loot of the colonized lands can only take one so far.

regards

Well our family was split in the end.. However from our so called youth vote - that is under 24, of those I know 4 were and 1 was in. So to talk about a 'youth vote' is plain wrong. I agree there may have been more regional differences that the older populations but it certainly wasn't consistent. Where would the media without gross stereotypes? And interestingly the most passionate remain and now extremely disappointed family members are those living outside the UK..  and not even neccassarily within the EU.

BTW I have been away whilst this has been going on, but pleasantly surprised how high the turnout was... It could have got messy if it was more like a typical UK turnout.

Eloise posted:

naim_nymph posted:

instead we have a flawed electoral procedure that allows a minority group to undemocratically control the destiny of the majority.

Welcome to the UK democratic system ... designed to protect the few at the expense of the many.

In the USA it's often heard that the majority is oppressed by the minority...there is a reason for this.

Minorities vote more; they want a voice and are willing to get off their duffs and go vote.  Folks in the majority are usually fairly happy with the way things are, since the majority sets things the way the are from the beginning.  If members of the majority wanted to control destiny they have to control their lazy ass and go vote; this is why most change is minority driven.

You also tend to see much more effort from minorities to win office.

Quote " The British want to take back their freedom well then they can take back their border" from the French equivalent of Mayor of the Callais region. As a member of the EU Britian was allowed to have customs officials in Callais it is entirely possible that from now on it will be up to the French customs who gets through the border at Callais and up to our customs to deal with it at our border.   I have spoken to many many work colleagues, friends, barbers, taxi drivers, shop keepers and anyone else who was prepared talk to me and without exception the main reason for voting leave was immigration  how ironic that could turn out to be.