Are we sleep-walking out of Europe ?

JamieWednesday posted:

I hope lots of people sign The Petition. Very unlikely to change anything but maybe if we can get eighteen million signatures...��

Brilliant. Does anyone understand the concept of majority rule? Don't get the answer we want so let's do it again and again and again until we do. My deeper take on this is that I sincerely am beginning to wonder if our species is really capable of widescale and continuous rational thought. The evidence of history and of the present day is not encouraging. You just have to wonder if the many problems we have of population growth, climate change, resource exhaustion, animal extinction, and just plain getting along with each other aren't going to finally do us in. The last couple of days has been top to bottom a bunch of chickens running around with their heads cut off. You can't make it up.

Clay Bingham posted:

Brilliant. Does anyone understand the concept of majority rule? Don't get the answer we want so let's do it again and again and again until we do. 

..........  as is normal with most elections,  only 36% of those eligible to vote chose to vote Leave.

Not an answer I know,  however it might be interesting to vote again just to see.  Then (like the Swiss) we should make it compulsory to vote & then maybe the younger voters who could not be bothered & will be affected far more than us ol' guys  .......

.......  enough,  its too late.

Clay Bingham posted:

JamieWednesday posted:

I hope lots of people sign The Petition. Very unlikely to change anything but maybe if we can get eighteen million signatures...��

Brilliant. Does anyone understand the concept of majority rule? Don't get the answer we want so let's do it again and again and again until we do. My deeper take on this is that I sincerely am beginning to wonder if our species is really capable of widescale and continuous rational thought. The evidence of history and of the present day is not encouraging. You just have to wonder if the many problems we have of population growth, climate change, resource exhaustion, animal extinction, and just plain getting along with each other aren't going to finally do us in. The last couple of days has been top to bottom a bunch of chickens running around with their heads cut off. You can't make it up.

Well I guess he is entitled to run a petition. Actually I do not think this should have gone to referendum - sometimes leaders just have to lead and I never felt I had a cat in hells chance of weighing this up properly. I am assuming more information would be available to our decision makers.

There is nothing undemocratic in wanting to re-test opinion - any time before October would suit me 

Frank F posted:

I just read that a guy from Barnsley voted "leave" to stop muslims coming to UK.  He and many others do not realise that in or out makes no difference to immigration from non-EU Countries so maybe the referendum was deeply flawed??  

The pity is that it is politically correct to rubbish Latvians but not politically correct to rubbish Asians and Africans??

FF

This is definitely not a reflection on residence of Barnsley in general but this doesn't surprise me.  Dan Jarvis (the MP from Barnsley Central) apparently found it difficult to get the nomination because he was from Nottingham ... And Nottingham Miners refused to strike when Dan Jarvis was around 12.

As for voting on the idea that leaving the EU would stop the Muslims coming to the UK - the idea of being a member of the EU allowing an influx of Muslims was part of the "Turkey is about to join the EU" claims ... Even Borris tried to point of that was unlikely.

Frank F posted:

Boris786 posted:

Clay Bingham posted:

JamieWednesday posted:

I hope lots of people sign The Petition. Very unlikely to change anything but maybe if we can get eighteen million signatures...��

Brilliant. Does anyone understand the concept of majority rule? Don't get the answer we want so let's do it again and again and again until we do. My deeper take on this is that I sincerely am beginning to wonder if our species is really capable of widescale and continuous rational thought. The evidence of history and of the present day is not encouraging. You just have to wonder if the many problems we have of population growth, climate change, resource exhaustion, animal extinction, and just plain getting along with each other aren't going to finally do us in. The last couple of days has been top to bottom a bunch of chickens running around with their heads cut off. You can't make it up.

Well I guess he is entitled to run a petition. Actually I do not think this should have gone to referendum - sometimes leaders just have to lead and I never felt I had a cat in hells chance of weighing this up properly. I am assuming more information would be available to our decision makers.

I seem to remember some time ago the the EU forced Denmark and Ireland (at least) to vote again on the changes to the EU Treaty because they were not happy with the result that rejected the Treaty changes so what is good then might be good now!! BTW, I understand that the Petition is based on there not being a majority in favour of leaving of all those entitled to vote.

The EU are very good at forcing their views on "us citizens" and the only option that I can see for Europe is a total reworking of the EU and Commission.  I feel that this can be done from within the group but UK involvement is needed.  The cracks are already appearing within the 27 which is why there is panic to get UK out asap and set a punishing example.

FF

i am not sure you can ascribe that motive to wanting us out quickly. Seems a perfectly natural reaction to want rid of someone that does not want to be in your gang/organisation asap.

Looks like we have a veto in Scotland as part of law in relation to devolution !

G

@ Fank and Boris...

Reading between the lines, it appears there is disunity writhing the other 27 nations about how to proceed with UK and Brexit.  

The French seam to favour a attitude of, we've voted so get out.

The Germans are torn between making it clear to the other 26 Nations the consequences of wanting to leave and ensuring their own economy and industries are not hurt (the German equivalent of the CBI appear to want very open trade relations with the U.K.). 

And the rest appear split about trying to salvage good relationships with the U.K. and kicking us to the curb.

Then there is Boris, our beloved Boris  who is shitting himself that his side won.  From the look on his face leaving the polling booth I think he may have voted for the loosing side .  

Eloise posted:

 

Then there is Boris, our beloved Boris  who is shitting himself that his side won.  From the look on his face leaving the polling booth I think he may have voted for the loosing side .  

On R4 this morning, one commentator described his face as that of someone who was coming down from a bad trip only to discover he had murdered his best mate.

Oh and to answer the question posed in the topic thread ... Yes I think we have (slept walked out of the EU).  The remain camp failed to provide any alternative to the status quo except leave the EU, so many people (especially the working class who voted leave) saw no alternative and accepted the Leave campaigns suggestions that without the EU everything will get better.

The national opposition both still have their heads in the clouds: Labour are more interested in fighting against Corbyn and each other than listening to the electorates concerns and offering a vision for the UK; and Liberal Democrats are still debating with anyone who listened that UK's place is in the UK and failing to consider what the UK could be like outside of the EU.

I found it ironic watching the news this evening that a gentleman who voted to exit told the reporter he wasn't sure now that he had done the right thing.  It may have been worthwhile to carefully contemplate the consequences of his action before putting his cross in the box on Thursday.  How many others now feel the same?

BevC posted:

I found it ironic watching the news this evening that a gentleman who voted to exit told the reporter he wasn't sure now that he had done the right thing.  It may have been worthwhile to carefully contemplate the consequences of his action before putting his cross in the box on Thursday.  ......

Nah. That would have require effort and application  ;-)

C.

*required*

(More effort needed from me).

C.

Only us British could debate more vigorously AFTER the referendum than before it due to our overly polite nature perhaps

I suppose a poll confined to two choices is always going to polarise the electorate and certainly my children have been engaged with politics like never before. I never thought we British could be such bad losers though. Democracy can be a bitch when the results are not to your liking.

Ray

It was one choice not two choices. And the result was pretty much a draw. What I am personally not happy with is the notion that either side coming out with that kind of margin could claim a resounding victory. This balls up just goes on and on. It's the most Micky Mouse construct on all sides I have ever seen. And we are basing our future on it. Too many "talent shows" on TV?

naim_nymph posted:

Perhaps, Cameron should have done this due to only 36% of eligible voters backing Brexit.

Cameron, instead of resigning, could stay put to defend the rights of the majority who have not voted for it.

Interesting. So you know exactly how the c. 38% who didn't vote, would have voted, had they voted? 

Either you're a mindreader or you're talking crap. 52% of those who voted, voted to leave. The other 48% voted to stay. Those who didn't, or couldn't be bothered, to vote are irrelevant.

BevC posted:

I found it ironic watching the news this evening that a gentleman who voted to exit told the reporter he wasn't sure now that he had done the right thing.  It may have been worthwhile to carefully contemplate the consequences of his action before putting his cross in the box on Thursday.  How many others now feel the same?

There are lots of people it seams (how many no one knows) who are saying they voted leave as a "protest" against the government, the establishment, the bankers; all of whom they see as the cause of their current bad situations. 

thebigfredc posted:

Only us British could debate more vigorously AFTER the referendum than before it due to our overly polite nature perhaps

i think there was lots of debate before.  But most people aren't interested in debate they just go on their feeling.  The £350million figure for example convinced a lot of people despite everyone saying it was false.  The idea of Turkey joining was another convincing factor; despite the debating that went on which said (even BoJo saying) any membership was years away.

I just found a article commenting that 3million watched the EU debate between BoJo and Nichola Sturgeon ... while 7 million were watching Nick Knowles DIY build show thingy.  

I suppose a poll confined to two choices is always going to polarise the electorate and certainly my children have been engaged with politics like never before. I never thought we British could be such bad losers though. Democracy can be a bitch when the results are not to your liking.

As Harry said, it wasn't so much two choices.  But when faced with the choice between the status quo - which for many people sees them in a zero hours contract, begging the government for benefits and then having the choice between putting food on the table or heating the home; and a step in the dark where those you are persuaded are to blame - the EU and the resultant immigrants - there isn't much choice.

What the remain campaign failed to do (especially Labour though Corbyn shouldn't have to take all the blame) was to offer the voters another choice ... A choice where remaining in the EU with a different government would lead to a brighter future.

From tomorrow's Observer newspaper:

EU governments have piled pressure on the UK to leave the union as soon as possible, saying talks on the exit must begin promptly and urging that a new British prime minister is installed quickly. 

Unbelievable. Even now, other people are trying to meddle in our sovereign affairs. We choose our new PM when WE want to.

Kevin-W posted:

From tomorrow's Observer newspaper:

EU governments have piled pressure on the UK to leave the union as soon as possible, saying talks on the exit must begin promptly and urging that a new British prime minister is installed quickly. 

Unbelievable. Even now, other people are trying to meddle in our sovereign affairs. We choose our new PM when WE want to.

Sorry but you think if Greece had voted to leave the UK would have been kind and sympathetic?

The U.K. are part of an organisation who have rules and regulations.

The population of the U.K. were asked if we should remain a member of that organisation.  We said "Leave". 

That organisation has the right to know what the f*** is going on and for us to sort our s*** out asap and not drag everyone down.

At the moment everyone wants to have their cake AND eat it. 

Kevin-W posted:

From tomorrow's Observer newspaper:

EU governments have piled pressure on the UK to leave the union as soon as possible, saying talks on the exit must begin promptly and urging that a new British prime minister is installed quickly. 

Unbelievable. Even now, other people are trying to meddle in our sovereign affairs. We choose our new PM when WE want to.

In fairness to the rest of the EU, those governments will be concerned that protracting the exit will also protract the uncertainty that will hurt their economies so I can understand their call to get on with it.  And it does seem a bit cheeky for us (the UK) to puff up our demands of EU reform before holding the referendum and then say we will work at the pace of the Conservative party annual conference before formally executing the result.  

There must also be a lot of emotion in this, even at the the top of governments.  The result of this referendum is akin to one partner in a marriage saying they are suing for a divorce.  The other party can be forgiven for feeling rejected and acting accordingly.  

Oh, and I should add I'm also stunned and deeply disappointed at the result.  This is going to be one very messy divorce with many unintended consequences. 

Mike

Frank F posted:

Hi Boris 786 - it all sounds a bit like Gary Glitter - Do You Wanna be in My Gang, My Gang, My Gang.  

Who put the bang in gang I wonder, Junkers 88?

FF

Steady no-one deserves to be bracketted with GG 

Eloise posted:

Kevin-W posted:

From tomorrow's Observer newspaper:

EU governments have piled pressure on the UK to leave the union as soon as possible, saying talks on the exit must begin promptly and urging that a new British prime minister is installed quickly. 

Unbelievable. Even now, other people are trying to meddle in our sovereign affairs. We choose our new PM when WE want to.

Sorry but you think if Greece had voted to leave the UK would have been kind and sympathetic?

The U.K. are part of an organisation who have rules and regulations.

The population of the U.K. were asked if we should remain a member of that organisation.  We said "Leave". 

That organisation has the right to know what the f*** is going on and for us to sort our s*** out asap and not drag everyone down.

At the moment everyone wants to have their cake AND eat it. 

Your reply beat me to it, Eloise.  Yours is a little more direct than mine but I think the underlying sentiment is the same.

Mike 

Kevin-W posted:

From tomorrow's Observer newspaper:

EU governments have piled pressure on the UK to leave the union as soon as possible, saying talks on the exit must begin promptly and urging that a new British prime minister is installed quickly. 

Unbelievable. Even now, other people are trying to meddle in our sovereign affairs. We choose our new PM when WE want to.

What is the problem? We want to leave and not unreasonably we are being asked to get on with it.

Spot on Boris as long as we keep within the timetable as written by the EU after all they made the rules a bit tough if they don't like their legislation one more reason to leave.

Boris786 posted:

Kevin-W posted:

 

What is the problem? We want to leave and not unreasonably we are being asked to get on with it.

Sorry sometimes my posts and replies verge from serious to more flippant and this is one of those...

The problem is, Borris is trying to work out how to get out of making good on his campaigning and actually stay in the EU.  

<--- an exploding Emulsified High-Fat Offal Tube ... a.k.a. the British Sausage!